Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. Not every believer is going to be in 100% unison with other believers and that's ok. God bless you my brother and thanks for the friendly discussion!
Post your favorite UR verse for inspection
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Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. Not every believer is going to be in 100% unison with other believers and that's ok. God bless you my brother and thanks for the friendly discussion!
I believe spirit prison is a place for thinking about your ways. Since Jesus taught them in there that probably means it's not forever for some people. The lake of fire is forever. But he also said to make peace with your adversary since you will not get out of prison until you have paid the uttermost farthing. Meaning whole debt paid.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Was Christ just playing games with his disciples then?
“And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?” (Mark 4:40)
It should!
The question I would like answered is this. Are the UR scholars this ignorant of Scripture, or are they denying it exists?
I have reason to believe they are indeed this ignorant to Scripture!
I have reason to believe they are indeed this ignorant to Scripture!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Wow. That's insulting and inflammatory. Congratulations! You won the argument! What else do you want, our scalps?
I'm not bothering to share the plethora of scripture that supports universal salvation because I have heeded Jesus's advice to shake the dust and move on.
All good and well! I can't shake the dust as long as I see the harm in this false doctrine.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Only when you explain away the plethora of scripture that contradicts it…
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The UR gang likes to shift around, I have to keep their nose to the grinding stone or nothing is accomplished.
It's one verse at a time or I'm taking the ball and going home, lol.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22
This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better,
if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.
The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.
Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.
But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).
Therefore, all means all in both instances.
cc: @Chadrho
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better,
if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.
The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.
Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.
But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).
Therefore, all means all in both instances.
cc: @Chadrho
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I think we need to rethink this, Steven! Lets try reading the context for a change.
"For in Adam all die," this is spiritual death. I'm sure you remember this verse "For the wages of sin is death," this is a spiritual death. Physical death will follow the spiritual death, it has no choice.
"Even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Do you see the bold, "in Christ?" KJV
These who are made alive are "in Christ" all of them, but notice "all of them in Christ."
Now the next verse 1 Cor. 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
Do you see the bold? Paul is doubling down on who the "all made alive"
If you notice, Steven, it's "they who are Christ's at His coming."
This has nothing to do with the universal salvation of mankind!
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Are we done, or am I allowed a rebuttal?
Furthermore, your rule was one verse at at time. You added a verse.
LOL, now you know better than that! We can't get to the bottom of it if there's no rebuttal.
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
This should be interesting given virtually all doctrines are grounded in scripture.
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Romans 11:32
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
What are you implying?
Right. Christ paid the penalty for the sins of ALL. Agree.
Couldn't see that coming. - LOL
Explain what "in Adam" means then.
In Adam all - in Christ all. That's how this should be compared.
Your "in Christ" snippet is only to support your doctrine.
And you are also ignoring the "as in" and "so in" statements in the verse.
In the same way all died in Adam, so will all be made alive in Christ.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22
More context. The literary style shines here. Both verses 21 and 22 are equal comparisons.
Verse23 shows a progression. Notice that "those who belong to him" comes after the "firstfruits".
This fits UR perfectly.
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
See above.
Nonsense.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
And I have always maintained that all three doctrines of the final judgement are biblical.
(Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Redemption)
Yet Charlie is convinced that UR has no biblical foundation.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
How can we "get to the bottom of it" if you fail to understand that a difference of opinion
about a scripture doesn't automatically make you right.
I'm implying (sorry, don't be angry) the UR gang doesn't pay attention to context! That's how they make these constant blunders!
Let me say this, the phrase "in Christ" is common usage for Paul, he uses this many times in his letters, so there's no mistake of what he's saying and means. For example:
Eph. 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Rom. 12:5
"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
2 Cor. 5:17
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
It's simple, Steven! The "all in Christ" are the born again. So don't confuse this with meaning the entire human race.
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