Hey angels! I often wonder it too...if we are trying to say similar things. But just when I start thinking it, he goes and says something that is just not right. Apparently I worship a 'different god' because I go to Church on a Sunday. And apparently (and here is where he just starts to get plain old confusing!) salvation is by grace alone...except it's not, because we are also required to DO what God wants in order to be saved. He contradicts himself, and then calls me an 'accuser' when I point this out! I've tried to clarify this point, because, like you, I thought he was trying to communicate that as truly regenerated people we should hate and avoid sin as best we can. But every time I try to do that, he says I 'read the bible differently to him...feel free to worship my different god!' So, I dunno!
Does 2 Peter 2:4 Reveal Hell Exists?
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Hey angels! I often wonder it too...if we are trying to say similar things. But just when I start thinking it, he goes and says something that is just not right. Apparently I worship a 'different god' because I go to Church on a Sunday. And apparently (and here is where he just starts to get plain old confusing!) salvation is by grace alone...except it's not, because we are also required to DO what God wants in order to be saved. He contradicts himself, and then calls me an 'accuser' when I point this out! I've tried to clarify this point, because, like you, I thought he was trying to communicate that as truly regenerated people we should hate and avoid sin as best we can. But every time I try to do that, he says I 'read the bible differently to him...feel free to worship my different god!' So, I dunno!
Show me anything that I have taught that contradicts Scripture and is a heretical teachings and that will cause a person to be lost.
I look forward to it so I can view it.
God bless.
How about you go first. You said if I showed where you said I was heretical and worshipping a false god you would apologise. Well, I showed you...post #17 above.
I am sorry for my comment if it came across the wrong way. I chose poor wording. What I really meant to say was that it seems we are worshiping a different God. My God will destroy the lost, and your God will keep the lost alive forever in a eternal punishment fire. I sincerely apologize if you have been offended and upset with my comments, please forgive me.
So now..please Rach, show me anything that I have taught that contradicts Scripture and is a heretical teachings and that will cause a person to be lost.
Thank you.
God bless.
It's okay. I'm not mad at what you said, but you are mistaken. I've never actually said that I believe God will burn the unsaved alive forever. In fact I said the very opposite...I do NOT think that God will do it. My point was this: when people say 'God is going to torment (or torture) unbelievers' we tend to think of torture in human terms...the grievous bodily harm done by humans to other humans. Without a doubt this kind of torture is evil. So, it's probably not realistic to consider this kind of torment when the Bible talks of torment. I don't know what the punishment of the unredeemed will be...and I don't need to know. I happily leave that up to God, who is fair, good and just. All I've been trying to say about the topic is this...we can know 3 things about it certainly from scripture: 1, it will be eternal. 2, it will not be were the redeemed are and 3, it is something we do not want, for ourselves or for anyone...it is to be feared.
You can disagree with me if you want, but it is not fair or biblical grounds for you to accuse me of worshipping a demon (which is what any 'false' god is).
Here we have a bit of a problem. Because I feel I have already given you biblical proof that shows you of being unbiblical. You disagree with me over what said passages mean. The problem with that is I could probably show you a verse that said "Truthseeker is wrong" and you'd say 'it doesn't mean that'...if you didn't want to think it. There are many, many verses that talk about how falling back on the dead traditions of the law are a danger to a person's salvation, but I won't post them all. This one is pretty good, and spells it out for us.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion is not from him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
(Galatians 5:1-15 ESV)
Ok Rach, thank you for your reply and for clarifying your belief about "hell".
God bless.
OK, so we've had a lot of 'back and forth' on whether the "lake of fire" event means an eternal punishment of the wicked burning forever and forever like a piece of bacon.
But none of that has a thing to do with the actual place 'now' in the Heavenly which Apostle Peter called 'tartaroo' ("hell") in the 2 Peter 2:4 verse!
It's that place the KJV Bible rendered as "hell" there which is where the angels that sinned are kept in chains of darkness until the Judgment...
2 Pet 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(KJV)
Jude said the exact same thing about those fallen angels that sinned...
Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(KJV)
What's the chance that two given to write under influence of The Holy Spirit like Peter and Jude could be wrong about that place of darkness that exists still right now?
Luke 8:30-31
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Legion": because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought Him that He would not command them to go out into the deep.
(KJV)
Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)
But none of that has a thing to do with the actual place 'now' in the Heavenly which Apostle Peter called 'tartaroo' ("hell") in the 2 Peter 2:4 verse!
It's that place the KJV Bible rendered as "hell" there which is where the angels that sinned are kept in chains of darkness until the Judgment...
2 Pet 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(KJV)
Jude said the exact same thing about those fallen angels that sinned...
Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(KJV)
What's the chance that two given to write under influence of The Holy Spirit like Peter and Jude could be wrong about that place of darkness that exists still right now?
Luke 8:30-31
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said, "Legion": because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought Him that He would not command them to go out into the deep.
(KJV)
Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)
What amuses me is that many people also claim this place of "darkness" is hell where there is a high intense fire burning. There is no way there would be an inch of darkness if there was an intense fire burning lol.
God bless.
It's because that Heavenly abode of the wicked called "hell" is NOT... the future "lake of fire" event.
Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
(KJV)
Isa 49:8-9
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
(KJV)
1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)
Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
(KJV)
Isa 49:8-9
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
(KJV)
1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)
I better explain something to you veteran. There is no hell, only a future lake of fire. Do you seriously believe there is a burning hell right in the middle of the Earth or somewhere else? Seriously? It's not biblical veteran. The dead are dead and cannot be alive yet because Judgement day is future so they cannot have been judged to hell or heaven yet.
God bless.
The apostle Peter uses tartarosas, a verbal form of the proper noun Tartarus, to explain the fate of some of the fallen angels. He states that for their sins, these angels had been tartarosas, which ALGNT says literally means to "hurl into Tartarus." Tartarus is also known in the Bible as "the Abyss" (Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1, 2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3). This is the place where some of the fallen angels are kept chained in darkness, awaiting "the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). The Bible implies that only fallen angels and demons are currently restrained there.
geenna, the Greek word most commonly translated as "hell" in English. Geenna is often associated with "fire" when it is used (Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Jam. 3:6).
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
geenna, the Greek word most commonly translated as "hell" in English. Geenna is often associated with "fire" when it is used (Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Jam. 3:6).
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
God's Word implies that the abode of the wicked is like a 'prison' house...
1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)
Satan's place is the 'pit', and it is also referred to as a prison...
Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(KJV)
Let's see, the devi is cast into 'prison', the rebellious angels are in 'chains' in tartaroos, and the spirits Jesus went and preached to were in 'prison'. Pretty obvious they're all references to the same... place, an abode of separation away from God in the heavenly.
1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)
Satan's place is the 'pit', and it is also referred to as a prison...
Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(KJV)
Let's see, the devi is cast into 'prison', the rebellious angels are in 'chains' in tartaroos, and the spirits Jesus went and preached to were in 'prison'. Pretty obvious they're all references to the same... place, an abode of separation away from God in the heavenly.
Jud_1:6 "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" Sodom and Gomorrah, in the same way as these angels, indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh. Both are exhibited as examples undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jud_1:6 "and angels" This verse adds angels to his lists of those who initially worshiped and later rebelled against YHWH and were thus destroyed or judged. But which angels? Some information is given to describe this particular group of angels:
1. they did not keep their own domain
2. they abandoned their proper abode
3. they will be kept in eternal bonds under darkness for judgment day
4. "sinned" (2Pe_2:4)
5. "committed them into Tartarus" (2Pe_2:4)
6. "committed them to pits of darkness reserved for judgment" (2Pe_2:4)
Which angels in the OT rebelled and sinned?
1. angels as powers behind pagan worship
2. the lesser angelic beings, called by specific demonic names in the OT. Examples: Lilith (cf. Isa_34:14), Azazel (cf. Lev_16:8), and goat demons (cf. Lev_17:7)
3. the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 (often discussed in intertestamental apocalyptic writings, I Enoch 86-88; 106; II Enoch 7,18; II Baruch 56; Jubilees 5)
4. angels mentioned in an example from a Jewish apocalyptic intertestamental writing (because of Jude's use of other books of this kind in Jud_1:9; Jud_1:14)
NASB "who did not keep their own domain"
NKJV "who did not keep their proper domain"
NRSV "who did not keep their own position"
TEV "who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority"
NJB "who did not keep to the authority they had"
There is a play on the tense of the verb "keep" in 2Pe_2:6. The angels did not keep their place (aorist active participle) so God has kept them in a place of imprisonment until judgment day (perfect active indicative). Those angels who violated God's will faced both temporal and eschatological judgment, just as the rebels of Israel during the wilderness wandering period and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The term "domain" is the Greek term archç, which means the "beginning" or "origin" of something.
1. beginning of the created order (cf. Joh_1:1; 1Jn_1:1)
2. the beginning of the gospel (cf. Mar_1:1; Php_4:15)
3. first eyewitnesses (cf. Luk_1:2)
4. beginning signs (miracles, cf. Joh_2:11)
5. beginning principles (cf. Heb_5:12)
6. beginning assurance/confidence (cf. Heb_3:14)
It came to be used of "rule" or "authority"
1. of human governing officials
a. Luk_12:11
b. Luk_20:20
c. Rom_13:3; Tit_3:1
2. of angelic authorities
a. Rom_8:38
b. 1Co_15:24
c. Eph_1:21; Eph_3:10; Eph_6:10
d. Col_1:16; Col_2:10; Col_2:15
These false teachers despise all authority, earthly and heavenly. They are antinomian libertines. They put themselves and their desires first before God, angels, civil authorities, and church leaders.
NASB "but abandoned their proper abode"
NKJV "but left their own habitation"
NRSV "but left their proper dwelling"
TEV "but abandoned their own dwelling place"
NJB "but left their appointed sphere"
These angels left their heavenly domain and went to another (earth). This fits the angelic interpretation of Gen_6:1-4 very well. This act was a willful rejection of God's will and authority.
"in eternal bonds" Chains are used on angels in I Enoch and Satan is bound with a "great chain" in Rev_20:1-2. The term "eternal" may mean "powerful," "adequate," "sure," not literally eternal, because these angels are only held until Judgment Day, when other means of incarceration shall be used (cf. Rev_20:10; Rev_20:14-15). The point is, some angels are imprisoned now, so as to control their evil activities.
"under darkness" The term Tartarus (not used in Jude but present in 2Pe_2:4 and I Enoch 20:2) was used in Greek mythology for the holding place of the Titans, the half divine, half human giants. This fits the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6. I Enoch describes the new abode of these rebellious angels (cf. I Enoch 10:5,12) as eternal darkness. How different from heavenly brilliance (glory). The rabbis divided Sheol into "Paradise" (for the righteous) and Tartarus (for the wicked). The term "abyss" (cf. Luk_8:3, Rev_9:1; Rev_11:7; Rev_20:3) is synonymous with the metaphors of darkness used in 2Pe_2:13 b.
Utley.
J.
Hello my friends
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I believe that Scriptures teach that there is a literal burning Hell / Death …. a place where all evil will eventually go. However, although this teaching exists in Scripture there is some confusion in the way the Translations are perhaps misrepresenting the original message.
This is done by translating the different words as all one word which is simply = HELL
please allow me to explain this as simply as possible
Basically γέεννα - { Yehenna - gheh'-en-nah } is always translated as the word " HELL "
but - was this what Jesus was referring to as the literal place in Israel where the where the bodies / corpses of evil individuals and criminals were buried or placed ?
{ Yehenna was a literal place, a great valley where dead animals, junk and feces / refuse was thrown into. The Yehenna Valley was a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening
Isaiah 30:33 { Yehenna } - was a place, utterly filthy, disgusting, and repulsive to the nose and eyes.
Yehenna is a word for a literal place in Israel - Christ used this word 12 total times in the manuscripts when ministering to his Hebrew people, referring one dying and going to the grave and dying in disgrace and shame - as being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna
Yet - γέεννα - Yehenna is a word that the translations always translate as the word “ hell “ but yet it is a literal name for a physical location and it is a great valley called “ Yehenna “
the literal physical valley called “ γέεννα - Yehenna “ is translated as “ Hell “ in these 12 passages in the translations
Mat 5:22, + 29, Mat 5:30, Mat 10:28, Mat 18:9, Mat 23:15 + 33, Mar 9:43, + 45, Mar 9:47, Luk 12:5, Jas 3:6
To speculate as to why the translations change or remove the original word “ Yehenna “ - the valley,
changing this word into the word “ HELL , “ is because perhaps the translators noticed that Jesus seemed to literally be speaking of place of Yehenna as a literal place where the soul can be literally destroyed. The translators then always translated the word “ Yehenna “ as - - HELL - always and never translated this word " Yehenna " as the literal valley as the location in Israel called - " Yehenna "
However, in the manuscripts, the Greek the word Jesus used to say as = destroyed, is the word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “ - this Greek word often in the manuscripts is also used to denote a state of being “ LOST “ - UN – SAVABLE, discontinued for usage - un savable - - UN – RECOVERABLE- perishable - ruined
Notice please
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to -ἀπόλλυμι - loose / perish / ruined destroyed ? / lost both soul and body in - γέεννα - Yehenna
This same exact Greek word -- “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “ -- is translated many times, as - lost / loose
Mat 10:6 - ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 15:24 l- ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 18:11 that which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost lost.
Luk 15:4 if he - ἀπόλλυμι - loose one
Luk 15:6 sheep which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
In the manuscripts, the Greek word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - lost “ is very often expressed as explaining a state of being lost, loosing, perishing and the translators also use this same word as how it is expressed in the scriptures as a state of being lost, loosing, and perishing ruination - of the soul
Could it be that Jesus was truly intending to use literal location of the Valley called - γέεννα / Yehenna,, - which is a literal place in Israel, as a literal example to describe to the Hebrew people - as being lost, - loosing, and perishing ruining - their souls, as receiving a disgraceful, shameful, horrible and dishonorable burial -
intended or meaning - as a comparison of the way the soul will disgracefully, shamefully, horribly be lost and perished and ruined in death also ?
Mat 10:28 And not be afraid of them of whom kill the body that also the soul not are able to kill
be afraid also rather that are able to also the soul and body loose / perish in - Yeenna
the manuscripts show that the word “ “ ᾅδης - hadēs / “Hades” simply means - THE GRAVE - HELL 11 total times the Greek word “ hadēs “ is translated as the word “ hell “
But the other additional 12 times we see the word hell - that literally, Jesus was using the Valley of Yehenna which is a literal place in Israel , using this word 12 total times in the manuscripts as a parable or symbolic meaning - referring to one dying and going the Valley of Yehenna and dying in disgrace and shame - as if they are being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna “
explaining to a Hebrew audience that their very soul and spirit will also be lost in disgrace and shame and perish and be ruined for eternity and that Yehenna and Hades being the words always translated as hell
the facts are that there are only two words in the manuscript that are translated as the Enhlish word " HELL "
1. - Hades ᾅδης - hadēs - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as simply ----- the grave ?
and
2. - Yehenna γέεννα - geenna - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as ----- the Valley of Yehenna - as the literal location and physical place that exists ?
and yes, there is a burning fire, a place of judgment - that is prepared for the Devil and his Angels and for all evil humans who will be sent in the afterlife into outer darkness in the lake of burning fire,
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I believe that Scriptures teach that there is a literal burning Hell / Death …. a place where all evil will eventually go. However, although this teaching exists in Scripture there is some confusion in the way the Translations are perhaps misrepresenting the original message.
This is done by translating the different words as all one word which is simply = HELL
please allow me to explain this as simply as possible
Basically γέεννα - { Yehenna - gheh'-en-nah } is always translated as the word " HELL "
but - was this what Jesus was referring to as the literal place in Israel where the where the bodies / corpses of evil individuals and criminals were buried or placed ?
{ Yehenna was a literal place, a great valley where dead animals, junk and feces / refuse was thrown into. The Yehenna Valley was a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening
Isaiah 30:33 { Yehenna } - was a place, utterly filthy, disgusting, and repulsive to the nose and eyes.
Yehenna is a word for a literal place in Israel - Christ used this word 12 total times in the manuscripts when ministering to his Hebrew people, referring one dying and going to the grave and dying in disgrace and shame - as being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna
Yet - γέεννα - Yehenna is a word that the translations always translate as the word “ hell “ but yet it is a literal name for a physical location and it is a great valley called “ Yehenna “
the literal physical valley called “ γέεννα - Yehenna “ is translated as “ Hell “ in these 12 passages in the translations
Mat 5:22, + 29, Mat 5:30, Mat 10:28, Mat 18:9, Mat 23:15 + 33, Mar 9:43, + 45, Mar 9:47, Luk 12:5, Jas 3:6
To speculate as to why the translations change or remove the original word “ Yehenna “ - the valley,
changing this word into the word “ HELL , “ is because perhaps the translators noticed that Jesus seemed to literally be speaking of place of Yehenna as a literal place where the soul can be literally destroyed. The translators then always translated the word “ Yehenna “ as - - HELL - always and never translated this word " Yehenna " as the literal valley as the location in Israel called - " Yehenna "
However, in the manuscripts, the Greek the word Jesus used to say as = destroyed, is the word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “ - this Greek word often in the manuscripts is also used to denote a state of being “ LOST “ - UN – SAVABLE, discontinued for usage - un savable - - UN – RECOVERABLE- perishable - ruined
Notice please
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to -ἀπόλλυμι - loose / perish / ruined destroyed ? / lost both soul and body in - γέεννα - Yehenna
This same exact Greek word -- “ ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi “ -- is translated many times, as - lost / loose
Mat 10:6 - ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 15:24 l- ἀπόλλυμι - lost sheep
Mat 18:11 that which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost lost.
Luk 15:4 if he - ἀπόλλυμι - loose one
Luk 15:6 sheep which was - ἀπόλλυμι - lost
In the manuscripts, the Greek word - “ ἀπόλλυμι - lost “ is very often expressed as explaining a state of being lost, loosing, perishing and the translators also use this same word as how it is expressed in the scriptures as a state of being lost, loosing, and perishing ruination - of the soul
Could it be that Jesus was truly intending to use literal location of the Valley called - γέεννα / Yehenna,, - which is a literal place in Israel, as a literal example to describe to the Hebrew people - as being lost, - loosing, and perishing ruining - their souls, as receiving a disgraceful, shameful, horrible and dishonorable burial -
intended or meaning - as a comparison of the way the soul will disgracefully, shamefully, horribly be lost and perished and ruined in death also ?
Mat 10:28 And not be afraid of them of whom kill the body that also the soul not are able to kill
be afraid also rather that are able to also the soul and body loose / perish in - Yeenna
the manuscripts show that the word “ “ ᾅδης - hadēs / “Hades” simply means - THE GRAVE - HELL 11 total times the Greek word “ hadēs “ is translated as the word “ hell “
But the other additional 12 times we see the word hell - that literally, Jesus was using the Valley of Yehenna which is a literal place in Israel , using this word 12 total times in the manuscripts as a parable or symbolic meaning - referring to one dying and going the Valley of Yehenna and dying in disgrace and shame - as if they are being thrown or cast into the valley called “ Yehenna “
explaining to a Hebrew audience that their very soul and spirit will also be lost in disgrace and shame and perish and be ruined for eternity and that Yehenna and Hades being the words always translated as hell
the facts are that there are only two words in the manuscript that are translated as the Enhlish word " HELL "
1. - Hades ᾅδης - hadēs - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as simply ----- the grave ?
and
2. - Yehenna γέεννα - geenna - was rather always, originally intended in the manuscripts to be translated as ----- the Valley of Yehenna - as the literal location and physical place that exists ?
and yes, there is a burning fire, a place of judgment - that is prepared for the Devil and his Angels and for all evil humans who will be sent in the afterlife into outer darkness in the lake of burning fire,
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The fallen angels from Noah's day were chained up and are located deep within the physical earth.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Have you ever considered WHY God commanded the sabbath rest with a 'death penalty' attached??? - Exodus 31
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [c]profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”
I am confused about the teaching that says that God has chained up or imprisoned the Sodomites along with the Angels together in a place where they are bound in chains .....ect..........
I would like to discuss this sometime, and this is a very critical topic that I have studied for many hours and many days. I just noticed some inconsistencies and questions that are unanswered about this theological teaching.
in love and honor always
I would like to discuss this sometime, and this is a very critical topic that I have studied for many hours and many days. I just noticed some inconsistencies and questions that are unanswered about this theological teaching.
in love and honor always
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Hello, what a great honor to be here in focus of wonderful study and enlightenment, may we always give God the glory.
2Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6
these two passages are the main key verses that are quoted by many Christian believers to point to the idea that the “ Fallen Angels “ have been captured and chained up in ” ταρταρωσας - tartarosas
tartarosas = “ Cast Downward Deep
verse :4 - the Greek manuscripts are here for us to read and understand
ει THAT - γαρ FOR - ο THE - θεος GOD - αγγελων ANGELS - αμαρτησαντων WHO SINNED - ουκ NOT - εφεισατο ARE SPARED -
Αλλα BUT - σειραις CHAINED - ζοφου IN BLACKNESS - ταρταρωσας CAST DOWNWARD - παρεδωκεν DELIVERED - εις TO - κρισιν THE JUDGMENT - τετηρημενους TO BE DETAINED.
Greek manuscripts -
meaning =
:4 THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED NOT ARE SPARED BUT CHAINED IN BLACKNESS CAST DOWN TO HELL DELIVERED TO THE JUDGMENT TO BE DETAINED. - -
- in the Greek how is direct evidence of placing this as past tense ? -
also, this coming judgment, is this a judgment “ FOR SAKE OF THE GOD “ - - :4 THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED NOT ARE SPARED
here, the scriptures seem to indicate that the judgment is placed on the Angels “ FOR THE GOD “ are there any crimes or sins that the Angels had committed for humans - THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED, are punished
also we see further also in - Jud 1:6
verse :6
αγγελους THE ANGELS - τε ALSO - τους THAT - μη NEITHER - τηρησαντας THEY KEPT - την THIS - εαυτων THEIR - αρχην BEGINNINGS - αλλα BUT - απολιποντας THEY LEFT – το THEIR - ιδιον OWN - οικητηριον HABITATION - εις TO - κρισιν JUDGMENT - μεγαλης A GREAT - ημερας DAY - δεσμοις BOUND - αιδιοις ETERNALLY - υπο UNDER – ζοφον DARKNESS - τετηρηκεν KEPT.
Greek manuscripts -
MEANING =
:6 THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION TO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.
are the manuscripts saying that God is reserving angels in chains before the great judgment day. - or is this a future judgment day that is reserved itself ? ︸ TO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY ︸
My study is centered around these two specific passages - 2Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 , however there are other passages that are related to these in the focus of “ Fallen Angels “
Does the scripture truly teach that there are “ Fallen Angels “ as I cannot find a single passage in scripture that uses the phrase or title -✣ “ Fallen Angels “✣
in my heart i believe that this teaching was simply embedded in public discourse and general rumored church teaching for a lengthy time before the Scriptures were translated into a modern language in the late 1400s. ✒
and the translators simply embedded the popular theory within the translation because it was one of the main teachings and theologies that the majority believed and knew well from oral teachings, having no modern translation since the Latin Vulgate of the late 400s
2Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6
these two passages are the main key verses that are quoted by many Christian believers to point to the idea that the “ Fallen Angels “ have been captured and chained up in ” ταρταρωσας - tartarosas
tartarosas = “ Cast Downward Deep
verse :4 - the Greek manuscripts are here for us to read and understand
ει THAT - γαρ FOR - ο THE - θεος GOD - αγγελων ANGELS - αμαρτησαντων WHO SINNED - ουκ NOT - εφεισατο ARE SPARED -
Αλλα BUT - σειραις CHAINED - ζοφου IN BLACKNESS - ταρταρωσας CAST DOWNWARD - παρεδωκεν DELIVERED - εις TO - κρισιν THE JUDGMENT - τετηρημενους TO BE DETAINED.
Greek manuscripts -
meaning =
:4 THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED NOT ARE SPARED BUT CHAINED IN BLACKNESS CAST DOWN TO HELL DELIVERED TO THE JUDGMENT TO BE DETAINED. - -
- in the Greek how is direct evidence of placing this as past tense ? -
also, this coming judgment, is this a judgment “ FOR SAKE OF THE GOD “ - - :4 THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED NOT ARE SPARED
here, the scriptures seem to indicate that the judgment is placed on the Angels “ FOR THE GOD “ are there any crimes or sins that the Angels had committed for humans - THAT FOR THE GOD ANGELS WHO SINNED, are punished
also we see further also in - Jud 1:6
verse :6
αγγελους THE ANGELS - τε ALSO - τους THAT - μη NEITHER - τηρησαντας THEY KEPT - την THIS - εαυτων THEIR - αρχην BEGINNINGS - αλλα BUT - απολιποντας THEY LEFT – το THEIR - ιδιον OWN - οικητηριον HABITATION - εις TO - κρισιν JUDGMENT - μεγαλης A GREAT - ημερας DAY - δεσμοις BOUND - αιδιοις ETERNALLY - υπο UNDER – ζοφον DARKNESS - τετηρηκεν KEPT.
Greek manuscripts -
MEANING =
:6 THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION TO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.
are the manuscripts saying that God is reserving angels in chains before the great judgment day. - or is this a future judgment day that is reserved itself ? ︸ TO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY ︸
My study is centered around these two specific passages - 2Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 , however there are other passages that are related to these in the focus of “ Fallen Angels “
Does the scripture truly teach that there are “ Fallen Angels “ as I cannot find a single passage in scripture that uses the phrase or title -✣ “ Fallen Angels “✣
in my heart i believe that this teaching was simply embedded in public discourse and general rumored church teaching for a lengthy time before the Scriptures were translated into a modern language in the late 1400s. ✒
and the translators simply embedded the popular theory within the translation because it was one of the main teachings and theologies that the majority believed and knew well from oral teachings, having no modern translation since the Latin Vulgate of the late 400s
yes - David in NJ
i am certain that many believers correlate or associate the two connecting passages referring to the similar punishment of the Sodomites and the Angels
--- where it says that the angels - he hath previously reserved in everlasting chains under darkness
- :7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication ...... The “ the cities about them in like manner “ are receiving judgment - as the same as fallen angels
\The Angels mentioned in the previous verse - the strange flesh is the knockout or punch line that tips the Sodomites and Angels over into " tartaroō " Deepest Downward.
please correct or rebuke any error
i am certain that many believers correlate or associate the two connecting passages referring to the similar punishment of the Sodomites and the Angels
--- where it says that the angels - he hath previously reserved in everlasting chains under darkness
- :7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication ...... The “ the cities about them in like manner “ are receiving judgment - as the same as fallen angels
\The Angels mentioned in the previous verse - the strange flesh is the knockout or punch line that tips the Sodomites and Angels over into " tartaroō " Deepest Downward.
please correct or rebuke any error
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