If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

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Lapidem

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Yes. Of course I'll share some of my beliefs. Not sure if there is a single label for each summary item below.
- Humans were created as an act of love to be in communion with and worship the Creator
- Sin separates us from the holy God.

Do you not see how those 2 statements contradict each other???

If there is a God who created humans to be WITH him, why did he create something (sin) that would separate humans and God?
 

bbyrd009

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Yes. Of course I'll share some of my beliefs. Not sure if there is a single label for each summary item below.
  1. Humans were created as an act of love to be in communion with and worship the Creator.
  2. We are to love YHWH, the Creator, the all-powerful LORD God, with our all and others as ourselves.
  3. Sin separates us from the holy God. YHWH being eternal means this separation amounts to loss of the eternal life we were divinely intended to have as well as discontent during this life.
  4. To reconcile humanity to YHWH, he devised a grace-filled way through the atoning sacrifice of his Son.
  5. Proof of this plan is the resurrection of the Christ, witnessed by 100's - and the transforming affect on billions through the millennia.
  6. The purpose of our life to help reconcile people to God through his Son. (Agency)
  7. Not all will be saved. Many are called but few are chosen.
If it'd help, I could provide Scripture verses for the above. We can also delve into each one in more detail, if you'd like. Also, what are your beliefs @bbyrd009?
so, aside from assiduously avoiding most or all of the beliefs (eschatology) that you really care about, you have the perspective of Esau, who is convinced that Yah needs a blood sacrifice for your sins, despite the fact that you cannot Quote that one single time, and in either defiance or ignorance of the Scriptures that assure us none of that is true (No son of man may die for another's sins, etc). If it'd help, I could provide Scripture verses for the above, but the point is that most Xtians seek life after death, or "afterlife," and fwiw Jesus did not ask for "fish" for nothing either.

i noticed that your "billions" are now gone, so yay there i guess

and dont get me wrong ok, i understand the offer for "help," as believers for the most part just looove to put themselves in the superior position, esp those who cannot hear. So just to be clear, i cannot help you, and i have nothing to teach, although id love it if someone taught me how to get rid of this smiley that i cant get in front of lol. Can you help me with that?
:)
 
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Wrangler

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If you pray for 10 things and only one of those things actually happened then critical thinking and rational analysis would state that prayer is pointless and a meaningless activity.
Wrong! Here is your God complex showing up again. We do not dictate to God. Your idea is miracles only are real if they occur 1:1 with our prayers.

Going back to your claim of being rational, it is IRRATIONAL to suppose you are in a better position to know than the all-knowing Creator.
 

Wrangler

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Can you admit that you have prayed for things numerous times and those things have not been delivered?
Yes. Also, many things I prayed for were granted but only after an extended time. Are you aware that there are many such examples as this in the Bible?
 

Wrangler

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Only tyrants want servants.
We've been through this already. Morally condemning God is not going to get you anywhere.

In your world view and terms, yes; God is a tyrant and we are his slaves. The cognitive dissonance you are suffering from is the impossibility of humans to not be a slave for whatever controls your thoughts enslave you.
 

Wrangler

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Do you not see how those 2 statements contradict each other???

If there is a God who created humans to be WITH him, why did he create something (sin) that would separate humans and God?
Hmmm. Sin is not created but an act of the created.

But the answer has to do with Free Will. God granted us liberty along with life, the ability to choose. God created us to be moral agents. He did not create robots to mindlessly say and do as programmed.
 

Wrangler

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so, aside from assiduously avoiding most or all of the beliefs (eschatology) that you really care about
Hmmm. Maybe I know what I really care about more than you.

You seem to want to turn this into a subset of your original question. You seem to really want to delve into eschatology. I believe there is a whole subform dedicated to that. Feel free to post your queries there. (I tend to avoid it).

I'm honestly not too worried about THE END. I'm more focused on my end. All I can do is my part. And I have faith in God's amazing grace. What matters most to me is NOW; serving God to my utmost. This is my reward. Contrary to @Lapidem who is appalled at the idea of being a servant; I yearn for God to use me for his purpose.

i noticed that your "billions" are now gone, so yay there i guess
No. Still there in #5. :spring:
 

Lapidem

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Also, many things I prayed for were granted but only after an extended time. Are you aware that there are many such examples as this in the Bible?
This is just deflection and diversion. It won't wash I'm afraid. So I will ask the question again an repeat until you answer:

Can you be honest with yourself?
Can you be honest with readers here?

Can you admit that you have prayed for things numerous times and those things have not been delivered?
 

Wrangler

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Can you admit that you have prayed for things numerous times and those things have not been delivered?
I already answered this question.
Mature believers realize the childishness of the question. AS IF your parent only answers your question IF they give you the answer you want. "No" is a perfectly legitimate answer to a prayer.
 

Lapidem

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Wrong! Here is your God complex showing up again. We do not dictate to God.
Wrong. We have every right to expect of any God that requires us to behave in specific ways, to be a model for those behaviours themselves. Otherwise there's no rational reason for us to submit to or worship such a being. I wouldn't worship Hitler, he was a mass murderer. Why would anyone worship a mass murderer?

Your idea is miracles only are real if they occur 1:1 with our prayers.
No my idea is that events are NOT miracles at all, they are events that people don't understand, just like 1000s of years ago people attributed things they didn't understand as being magic. Your idea is that if something happens positively that it's a miracle of your god instead of rationally looking for other explanations. We are back to Cognitive Bias.

Going back to your claim of being rational, it is IRRATIONAL to suppose you are in a better position to know than the all-knowing Creator.

There is no all-knowing creator so your point is meaningless.
 

Lapidem

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I already answered this question.
Ah right so God doesn't sometimes give you what you pray for. This you freely admit. Progress.

So . . .

John 13:14
"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Matt 21:22
"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."

John 14:14
"If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

1 John 5:14
"This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us"

Mark 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you."

there are of course tons more quotes saying the same thing

Clearly the Bible is in error. You patently do not get what you ask for even if it is the most earnest loving request.

As this challenges your belief system you have to invent excuses for why these numerous verses are not wrong. That's the power of religious conditioning. With humility one could simply say, "I admit that the Bible verses look wrong and I don't currently understand why that is".
 

Wrangler

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Wrong. We have every right to expect of any God that requires us to behave in specific ways, to be a model for those behaviours themselves. Otherwise there's no rational reason for us to submit to or worship such a being.
You only have the rights that the Creator grants. Your God complex ego will get you killed AND cause you discontent until then.
 

Wrangler

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Going back to your claim of being rational, it is IRRATIONAL to suppose you are in a better position to know than the all-knowing Creator.

There is no all-knowing creator so your point is meaningless.
If I'm wrong, I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, you've lost everything. It is IRRATIONAL to be so imprudent.