How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[amigo de christo]

there is a cost to entering the kingdom

It was paid for by Christ on the cross.

Religion says we must earn it by paying for it.

So while attacking others as being religious. You ignore the fact you yourself are trying to get to God through religion.

YEP JESUS PAID IT . NOW the message is , BELIEVE YE IN HIM .

 

[marks]

Yes, I know what you're talking about, the Lord taking us over and we just go along for the ride so to speak. But I've never thought that was meant to be a continual state, but rather the Lord doing as He wills, when He wills it, for particular purposes. But we need to be 'available' to Him, I agree with that.

That's how I think of these things. To me the most important thing of all is that we don't end up interpreting the Bible according to our experiences. I think we have to interpret our experiences according to the Bible.

I can't comment on something that happened to someone else, I wasn't there, I didn't see, it wasn't me. And even then, I realize there is much we don't understand, and we can get it wrong.

All I can do it to compare experiences with Scripture. I believe the Bible addresses all relevant truth and error. I've not yet found one spiritual error that is not addressed in specific fashion in the Bible.

It's just a matter of whether we consider the Bible to be the final authority. We were talking about speaking in Scriptural terminology, this is an instance I feel that especially important. Experiences can be powerful in changing our points of view, and I feel it of utmost importance that our POV not be changed to something that is not of Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have mistaken the living and imperishable Word of God...Jesus Himself....for a book that speaks ABOUT Him. So you are a whole level away from eternal reality.

so there you are attacking the bible again. I thought @lforrest warned you aganst this

 

[marks]

so there you are attacking the bible again. I thought @lforrest warned you aganst this

I don't think we're supposed to be discussing moderation actions on the board.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

you are attacking the bible again

That’s how I perceived @Episkopos post as well…

It grieves me when people reduce the Holy Bible to “a book”

 

[ChristisGod]

That's how I think of these things. To me the most important thing of all is that we don't end up interpreting the Bible according to our experiences. I think we have to interpret our experiences according to the Bible.

I can't comment on something that happened to someone else, I wasn't there, I didn't see, it wasn't me. And even then, I realize there is much we don't understand, and we can get it wrong.

All I can do it to compare experiences with Scripture. I believe the Bible addresses all relevant truth and error. I've not yet found one spiritual error that is not addressed in specific fashion in the Bible.

It's just a matter of whether we consider the Bible to be the final authority. We were talking about speaking in Scriptural terminology, this is an instance I feel that especially important. Experiences can be powerful in changing our points of view, and I feel it of utmost importance that our POV not be changed to something that is not of Scripture.

Much love!

Yes is our authority scripture or our experiences , and do we evaluate our experiences on Gods revealed truth in His word.

 

[ChristisGod]

That’s how I perceived @Episkopos post as well…

It grieves me when people reduce the Holy Bible to “a book”

Exactly experience trumps truth in scripture and he teaches heresy that we are not born again through the message of the gospel contained in Gods inerrant word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this. I could be wrong but it seems to hurt when someone hints at “you are ordinary”. I say this because I can relate.

This world says you are extraordinary if
You have extraordinary external things that lift you as extraordinary over or elevated, over all the ordinary. Nobody wants to hear “I am extraordinary” and “you are not”. To me that hurts. I’ll sit around pouting “I don’t see anything that makes me extraordinary. I can’t do this. I can’t do that.” To me God says you are extraordinary not because of what you do for Him, which in return makes you the greatly feared and suppressed “ordinary” …

This is why I suggest “loss of our own image” to “gain His” …not because I’m not ordinary but because He is extraordinary in the ordinary.

Point is…to keep our own image of ordinary I can see how we suppress and reject and complain and stomp and wail to keep hidden the truth. So fearful. But to me we reject and suppress the very One who is sufficient to give us extraordinary. Does that make sense? The very thing we claim we want which is “extraordinary” we hide for fear we may be judged as “ordinary”? I think of the passage where Paul stands before them saying (paraphrasing) you said you were waiting on Him. hey guys, I’m standing before you telling you that he raises the dead …why is a surprise to you that I’m standing here raised from the dead? Have you looked at my past? “The Life I now Live, I Live in Him.”

Paul in romans says we are all in the same boat. We are all sinners. we are all unrighteous.. There is not one righteous person. except Christ., Even he said why do you call me good. no one is good but God

So your right as in no one wants to hear they are guilty (ordinary) . they do not want to hear they are as guilty as the Hitlers, the Stalin's and the other evil that has walked the earth. Nor do they want to hear that they could have repented even after all they did and they too could have been saved.

that is what becoming poor in spirit means. Admitting you are ordinary, guilty, lost and without hope. and you have no choice but to look up tio Christ. The cross. and way yes Lord, I want that gift. I can't pay it myself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But there seems to be an angst which I don’t understand.
Where some trusting in external things to make them extraordinary, need the be made known they are ordinary. Like the parable of taking the low seat. Or being brought down.
But then there are some who desperately need to be edified because they are so low, they desperately need to hear they are extraordinary. Not to build up their pride again; but to lift them up in Him. They already get they are ordinary; what the need now is to know they are extraordinary in the sufficiency of God.

I see it we need to first be adopted into Gods family.

Then he will lift us up and tell us all how special we are to him.. Now matter what others may think on earth, or what we think of ourselves.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Imagine if your boss came to give you a gift. it was all wrapped with a nice little ribbon. then you open the gift. and its your paycheck. Its like I earned this, this is not a gift. what are you trying to pull.

Another example would be your boss giving you a gift. then after you take it. He tells you you have to pay for it. Well thgat is not a gift. He is giving you a wage before you earn it, then demand you earn it.

Paul is saying salvation is a gift. we can;t earn it. Religious says we must earn it. They why the jews rejected Christ,. and why many believers reject Christ even if they say they do not. they are seeking a wage and trying to earn it with works, and hence rejecting the reward.

It is weird you say that. I’ve imagined what it would be like to receive a gift only to open it and there is nothing inside. It is empty. Which reminds me of those presents at the mall used as props; beautifully wrapped on the outside but empty inside. To open a gift and find nothing inside…I think I would look inside and seeing nothing ask “is this a cruel joke. Where is the gift?”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is weird you say that. I’ve imagined what it would be like to receive a gift only to open it and there is nothing inside. It is empty. Which reminds me of those presents at the mall used as props; beautifully wrapped on the outside but empty inside. To open a gift and find nothing inside…I think I would look inside and seeing nothing ask “is this a cruel joke. Where is the gift?”

that is what is so precious about the gift our savior is offering.

We are said it is an unperishable gift.. It will never fade away. and no one can take it away from us.

when we think of the cost if Jesus hanging on that cross. many people believe today, and our gift he offers based on this fateful day

no greater love!

 

[amigo de christo]

so there you are attacking the bible again. I thought @lforrest warned you aganst this

Epi does not realize that all that he is teaching he does so through the LOG OF UNBELIEF .
And till that LOG gets pulled from his eyes he cannot help anyone , no , not even himself .
TILL the LOG of unbelief is pulled from his eyes
ALL HE CAN DO is teach others to attain to salvation , righteousness , justification , BY THEIR OWN MERITS .
SEE he can point out truths and say things about the cross , about this or that
BUT HE is of the MINDSET man can do this WITHOUT FAITH IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND , WITHOUT BELIEVING
IN HE whom GOD DID SEND .
He can point out errors too , but so could jospeh smith , so could many others
THE PROBLEM WAS that while they could point out some errors in the peoples , the churches and etc
THE DIRECTION both epi and others lead folks IS NOT TO CHRIST but rather into MORE ERROR .
Satan is behind this lie . YE can attain your righteousness apart from belief , faith in CHRIST sayeth satan .
BUT HE IS A LIAR and the FATHER OF LIES and too many are buying into his lies .
They trod CHRIST UNDER FOOT and say alas , SAVE THYSELF by attaining your own salvation
your own righteousness , APART FROM BELIEF and FAITH IN CHRIST .
EPI has a HUGE LOG OF UNBELIEF IN HIS EYE and thus he cannot see and thus he cannot lead or help anyone .
THE BLIND cannot lead the blind . BOTH FALL INTO THE DITCH .

 

[Johann]

Happy to discuss these things, brother. I might need tweeking on some of this, but just going by those scriptures that I brought....if that is not correct then how are we to understand them? I believe there must be a reason why even though our old man has been crucified, we still need to undergo chastisements and sufferings. What is the purpose of carrying a cross? We are evidently walking through a crucifixion of some kind while here on earth, and that is part of what it means to follow Jesus......following Him to where He is...."you know the way to where I am." That way is the same way He walked, the way of the cross.....a crucifixion.

He is the potter, we are the clay and we are His workmanship.....there is evidently still work of some kind going on in us, and I believe those scriptures help us to understand what and why. It is self-evident that our flesh has not been crucified, since we're still alive and walking around, and there is still the need to beat it to make it our slave. Remember Jesus saying to fear the one who can destroy body and soul in hell?.....what I believe to have received there is that body and soul are kind of fused together as one. We are to be perfecting holiness in flesh and spirit and be blameless in spirit, soul and body. And remember that the sword of the spirit is a double edged sword, dividing between soul and spirit....there must be a reason why it needs to do that.

Correct, the flesh is not crucified, and that the spirit and soul are indissolubly echad--one.

As to the double edged sword--
1) "For the word of God is quick," (zon gar ho logos tou theou) "Because the word of God is living, life-energizing, or life-giving," referring both to Jesus Christ as a person and the word of truth, accompanied by the Holy Spirit, Joh_1:14; 2Ti_3:16-17.

2) "And powerful," (kai eneges) "And operative," works within, within the mind, heart, and emotions of men. It is called the 1) word of cleansing, Joh_15:3; John 2) word of salvation, Act_13:26; Acts 3) word of faith; 4) word of wisdom and knowledge, 1Co_12:8; 1 Corinthians 5) word of reconciliation, 2Co_5:19.

3) "And sharper than any two-edged sword," (kai tomoteros huper pasan machairan) "And sharper beyond (even than) any (every) tow-edged, (two way cutting) sword," separating in distinction between right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral, ethical and unethical, the way to heaven and the way to hell, Joh_14:6; Joh_10:1; Joh_10:9; Joh_10:25-30.

4) "Piercing even," (kai diknoumenos) "Even piercing," penetrating, or passing through, by the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit to prick or convict the soul, Act_2:36-37; Act_9:5.

5) "To the dividing asunder of soul and spirit," (achri merismou psuches kai pneumatos) "As far as (or to the point of) a division of soul and of spirit;” causing conflict, trouble, or conviction, cutting conviction, Act_5:33; Act_7:54; Act_24:25.

6) "And of the joints and marrow," (harmon te kai muelon) "Both of joints and marrow," causing soul and body to tremble in fear, Dan_2:2; Dan_4:5; Dan_5:5-6; Act_9:6; Act_16:29.

7) "And is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart," (kai kritikos enthumeseon kai ennoin kardias) "And (it) is able to judge (evaluate) (the) thoughts and intentions of the heart," Mat_12:34; Mar_7:21; Rom_6:17; Rom_10:10; Luk_2:19.

Please do look up the Scripture references.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (Gk - psuche/psyche) unto the death. (see, same Greek word for soul here once again, but please check it out - and I believe that is why the scripture says "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints", because it is alluding to the 'death' of the soul-life for His sake.)

I still can't get a handle on what Epi is saying about outer man....it confuses me in relation to old/new man. The bible doesn't talk about an outer man, though it talks about an inner man, as well as old and new man. I'm just trying to stay with bible terminology that I know otherwise I get confused. Maybe it's just my poor brain, or maybe it's because I only speak "bible-ese". I think Episkopos has some things right, but some things are very wrong. Throwing out the foundation has led to some wrong conclusions. Completely unnecessary to throw out the foundation in any case....because it's a matter that we need to "work out" what Jesus has already accomplished. Eg, we know the devil was completely and soundly defeated at the cross......but yet we still see him prowling around causing havoc. Also, God told the Israelites that He had given the Canaanites into their hands, as in past tense, yet they still needed to go fight the battles to bring it to pass.

Epi is way off--
Thanks Lizbeth

No, we are not to flagellate ourselves like some in the Catholic church do....but it is the Lord who is leading us and He brings/allows the chastisements that are working together for our good. My question, in light of those scriptures about losing our soul-life for His sake, would be, does that "body of sin" to be destroyed include the soul-life, or maybe we could say our old man's soul-life?

1Pe 1:6-9

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (here is that Greek work "psuche" again... could we say we are losing our soul-life in order to gain the soul-life of Christ? And this is why Paul said it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in him?)

Sufferings, such as those mentioned in the above scripture must be helping us to lose our soul-life then, in order to save our soul...?

I've heard people mention "soul-ishness" as opposed to the spirit, ie, implying that soulishness is of the flesh. Eg, soulish prayers would be prayers that people pray out of emotions or greed and sefishness, etc. And for reasons like this the bible says the sword of the spirit divides between soul and spirit....?

Interesting, I just remembered now, that the old testament talks about afflicting one's soul in reference to fasting....so it appears that fasting doesn't just afflict the physical body alone, but because of body/soul being one, it afflicts the soul...?

Anyway, these are hard questions, I'm going to meditate on those scriptures some more.

Read the link @marks shared on "The mind of the spirit-the mind of the flesh" that deals with these hard questions @Lizbeth and I am not dodging you since I struggle with these questions, same as you.
J.

You have mistaken the living and imperishable Word of God...Jesus Himself....for a book that speaks ABOUT Him. So you are a whole level away from eternal reality.

Just as I thought--your "experience" supersedes the D'var/Scriptures and God's Imperatives--hence you NOT quoting Scriptures--it is "just a book" to you.
I'll stay with the written word and not my "experience/-s"--you are faaaaar out.
How many times have you contradicted yourself with your "inner/outer/lower/upper" levels and '"eternal conscious/-ness?"

 

[GTW27]

There was only one protection for the people in the hour of the wrath of GOD .
They were told , APPLY the blood of a lamb unto your door posts and DO NOT COME OUTSIDE , STAY WITHIN .
THE LORD will see the blood and pass over your doors .
DOESNT THAT SOUND REAL FAMILIAR to us lambs as well .
COME TO CHRIST , HIS BLOOD WILL COVER THEE from the wrath of GOD .
Only today they think there is no real need to believe in HE . THEY do not trust in CHRIST , HIS BLOOD alone
as salvation . They have not applied the BLOOD to the door posts of their heart
and there will be no escape from the judgment of GOD for all who do this .
FOR GOD will arise to judge the earth and the day of HIS JUDGMENT COMETH .
If one will not recieve the testimony that GOD has given of HIS SON
they WILL PERISH , they will surely perish .
GOD will surely destroy all evil , and all who believe not in the SON will surely be destroyed .
The DAY of the LORD cometh as a theif in the night .
And no man knows their own hour of their own death either .
ALL WILL SURELY STAND BEFORE THE LORD . Many will hear i never knew you , depart from me
into the FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels .
BUT the lambs shall simply rejoice in the ONE WHO SAVED THEM and shall rejoice in peace forever with GOD .
This aint no joke . Its very real and the damnation awaits all who rejected the very one and only
Savoir and Redeemer , the ONE and ONLY and i do mean ONLY NAME whereby we can be saved , CHRIST JESUS .
That is our hope and its the ONLY HOPE THERE IS . POINT to JESUS till the last breath . FOr many will wail on HIS DAY
for they rejected HIM . HE who GOD DID SEND to save the world , they rejected and did so unto their own
destruction and demise . THIS LAMB GONNA POINT TO THE KING , KING JESUS , all else is winds of death
that end in a hurrican of upmost second death .

Blessings in Christ Jesus amigo de christo. Passover. In the time of wrath, Passover. Blood of an unblemished lamb, and The Blood of The Lamb of God. But who can see it, unless it first be revealed.

 

[amigo de christo]

Blessings in Christ Jesus amigo de christo. Passover. In the time of wrath, Passover. Blood of an unblemished lamb, and The Blood of The Lamb of God. But who can see it, unless it first be revealed.

Thats why we preach the gospel . Those who hear amen those who reject its on them .
GOD has chosen to save the world through the preaching of the gospel .
SO , let us simply preach the gospel . That we can DO .

 

[marks]

What it DOESN'T mean is that each of us is automatically crucified dead to sin because we are now believers.

This is true. Having beliefs about something, we all believe things.

But to as many as received Him, believing into His Name, He gave the power to become children of God . . . born of God. And this is as many as received Him, it most certainly does apply to the individual.

"The one who is dead is freed from sin."

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

That’s how I perceived @Episkopos post as well…

It grieves me when people reduce the Holy Bible to “a book”

Bible means "book." The problem is to elevate a book to the status of God. The Bible POINTS to God...but is not God itself. Like a sign that says "Montreal" on the way to Montreal...and then saying...it IS Montreal...not just a sign.

This shows a lack of any real connection to what the Bible is pointing to.

Did Jesus walk around with a scroll? Did the apostles? God is Spirit and He is looking for worshippers who will worship Him in Spirit and truth. Guess where that is written.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Did Jesus walk around with a scroll?

For obvious reasons, no.

But if the scrolls were in the form of the Bibles we have today he certainly would have!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bible means "book." The problem is to elevate a book to the status of God. The Bible POINTS to God...but is not God itself. Like a sign that says "Montreal" on the way to Montreal...and then saying...it IS Montreal...not just a sign.

This shows a lack of any real connection to what the Bible is pointing to.

Did Jesus walk around with a scroll? Did the apostles? God is Spirit and He is looking for worshippers who will worship Him in Spirit and truth. Guess where that is written.

the bible is the logos. Its is Gods words to us.. It says it is inspired by God

when you read said book, you read the words from Gods mouth

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The cross. and way yes Lord, I want that gift. I can't pay it myself.

That is the point I was trying to make though. I went to a bible study at a coffee house a few times. They kept saying how it is a free gift that cost nothing. In my head …I didn’t say anything to them…but I was thinking is it true it doesn’t cost anything? Can I keep my pride? Because if I can’t keep my pride, then there is a cost.