RLT63
Well-Known Member
Free Will or Predestination© :: By William Clemens
Which is correct? Actually, both are correct and co-exist without contradiction. Now, that’s a statement that would get the attention of John Calvin,
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True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
I was born again in 1975, through vision/dream concerning the book of 1 Timothy 4:1
Many years of being in many churches.
RecentIy in the past 10 years, I was attending a local Methodist, but I don't have born again Christian fellowship there, so I now attend a local Baptist. However, I don't agree with their views on the Lord's return.
Yes, I firmly believe in free will.
No, I do not believe that Christ will save all mankind. We have free will.
When I digest the rest of what you said, I will reply in segments.
Thanks
Behold
Well-Known Member
Foreknowledge is not the same as pre-determined.
God always knows what is going to happen, but that is not the same as God causing it to be so.
Calvin could never understand that simple concept.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The idea that God causes you to sin, is from the Devil.
He was not created to sin....He was created with free will, same as you, and when you choose to sin, so did the Devil.....so did Adam.
The Devil is the father of it.
That's how it can be with free will becomes lust driven.
Dear RLT63,Free Will or Predestination© :: By William Clemens
Which is correct? Actually, both are correct and co-exist without contradiction. Now, that’s a statement that would get the attention of John Calvin,
The writer of your article doesn't understand what free will is. To support free will, he immediately uses a verse which says that mankind can make "choices". The ability to make choices is NOT the issue as to whether or not mankind has a free will. Certainly, mankind can make choices. Even computers make choices but the choices a computer makes are caused by the programmer to accomplish the programmer's "will".
This issue concerning free will is whether or not mankind can make choices that are free of God's direction. Scripture clearly and frequently says that mankind does not have that ability.
Here are just a few of the verses that contradict the idea that mankind has a free will:
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
If mankind had a free will, none of the verses above would be true.
Even when a person sins, God is the cause of that person sinning. Paul every clearly states this truth below:
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Paul evidently had been asked why God still finds fault with mankind when we sin since "no man has resisted His will". In other words, Paul is saying that since mankind does not have a free will ability to decide to sin or not, why does God still hold us accountable for that sin?
Here is Paul's answer:
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Daniel restates Paul's answer:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
The Doctrine of Free Will is one of the foundational beliefs of Satan's gospel. When a believer accepts this doctrine, they will fall away and mix "works" with faith. This is the sin that leads to death. Any believer who remains under "works" upon their resurrection will be rejected by Christ when they appear before Him:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
These believers are said to work lawlessness because they have fallen from grace and remain under the Law.
The belief in "works" (even just one work like the confession of faith) is Satan's crooked way. The entire Nation of Israel was following Satan's crooked way when Christ came. For that reason, Christ sent John the Baptist to them to make the call of repentance from "works" so that Christ's pathway would be made straight (faith alone). The Jews who responded to the call were the Jewish Elect. They were "few" in number (about 120 out of the entire Jewish Nation). Being a part of the "many" is not the place to be if a person is going to be saved in this age.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
The pathway for the Gentile Elect is the same as the Jewish Elect. After receiving the Early Rain and being called out from the world, Gentile believers (the church) will all quickly fall away just as the Jewish Nation did. For the fallen away Gentile Elect, Christ will send a converted Elect believer to them in the spirit of Elijah (just as He sent John the Baptist to the Jewish Elect) to make the same call of repentance so that the pathway for Christ to return to them is made straight. When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain and convert them.
When one of Christ's Elect believers is saved, it happens not because of their supposed free will ability to follow and accept Christ. It happens solely because it was God's "will" for it to happen:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Furthermore:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom HE did predestinate, them HE also called: and whom HE called, them HE also justified: and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified.
Nowhere in the verse above does it ever mention that the believer does anything for their salvation. Their salvation happens solely because HE does all the work to make it happen.
And because mankind's salvation comes only from the work of Christ, Christ will save all mankind just as His Father sent Him to do. Nothing can stop Him, certainly not mankind supposed free will.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
To accomplish this great work, Christ will bring in the harvest of mankind at two different times. The Elect, who are the First Fruits, are harvested early in this present age. The balance of mankind will be harvested at the end of the harvest season in the final age. Only after this final harvest will these verses be TESTIFIED to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Mankind is the vessel:
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mankind's salvation happens only because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind has no say in the matter. We will all be made into the vessel that "seemed good to the Potter to make".
The gospel that the apostate church teaches is the "another gospel" Paul warned about:
2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
That gospel comes from Satan who masquerades as Christ via the spirit of anti-Christ. That spirit devoured the church shortly after the Apostles died. In that false gospel, Christ is made out to be mankind's worst nightmare instead of their Savior.
Joe
Behold
Well-Known Member
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Earburner
Well-Known Member
You don't understand the KJV bible John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
See also 1 John 5:12-13.
Nor the Douay-Rheims bible John 3:18
He that believeth in him is not judged.
But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
See also 1 John 5:12-13.
Conclusion: Rom. 8:8-9.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. Total complete utter denial of who God is, His character, His love, and His goals for mankind. "God is love" is enough to refute every statement you made regarding God's do called deliberate establishment of a sinful mankind.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
God's Plan produced opposition to His Will as inevitably as this arrangement of numbers produces its results.
The number 666 is a doubly triangular number because it can be expressed as the sum of two consecutive triangular numbers: 36 (the 8th triangular number) and 630 (the 35th triangular number). Additionally, 36 itself is triangular and can be expressed as the sum of two other triangular numbers: 15 (the 5th triangular number) and 21 (the 6th triangular number). So, in total, four triangular numbers add up to 666: 15, 21, 36, and 630.
Dear Earburner,
What you are not seeing is that Satan is masquerading as Christ in the church the Apostles started.
2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (Christ). 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness (leaders of the apostate church); whose end shall be according to their works.
The church is no longer following Christ. The church has become apostate and is unknowingly following Satan. Don't think that your supposed "free will" ability can save you from Satan's deceptions. Satan has deceived all of Christ's Elect since the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church near the end of the 1st century. This is how Satan kills the saints.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Unless a person keeps the sayings of the book of Revelation, they are not one of Christ's Elect and are not going to be saved in this age.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
We all live (born again) by "every word" that comes from the mouth of God. The Elect keep all the words before they physically die. Everyone else will keep all the words before the final age ends.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
I was under Satan's deception in the apostate church for 32 years until Christ blessed me with the Latter Rain in 2005. Only with the Latter Rain is a fallen away believer given "eyes that can see" so that they can come out of Satan's deception.
Even the spirit of anti-Christ masquerades as Christ:
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast (spirit of anti-Christ) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a LAMB, and he spake as a dragon.
Christ said this about how powerful Satan's deception is:
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Not only that, but God sent a "great delusion" to the church so that they would believe Satan's lie:
2Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The pathway to salvation includes these words which are spoken in the verses above. To be saved, we will live by them.
Because all mankind is condemned, mankind must be "born again". Salvation can come no other way. The Old Man/Man of Sin must be destroyed by the judgment of Christ. Only the New Man is not judged and is saved.
The confession of faith that believers make in the apostate church is made to Satan and not to Christ. For that reason, they do not have the salvation mentioned in John 3:16-18. That salvation comes only with the Latter Rain when they come out of Satan's deceptions.
Peter said this when He and the others received the Latter Rain on the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Only at the time when a believer is converted with the Latter Rain can they truly "call on the name of the Lord" and be saved. That is when John 3:16-18 applies and when our salvation comes.
No one can deviate from the pathway which Christ has established for mankind to travel for their salvation. Don't think your supposed "free will" ability can make any other choice than what Christ has caused you to make. You and I and everyone else will travel this pathway. All that is unknown to us is when we individually finish that pathway and enter the Kingdom of Heaven - and only the Father knows when that Day will come:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Joe
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Let's not fool anyone here.
I perceive that by your words: "the fallen away Gentile Elect" aka "the fallen away believers:", you are meaning the Protestant religions.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Edit 1: As an open minded born again Christian, I do hear what you are saying, and could almost be partly there for full understanding, but only time and the Lord's Spirit will help me to digest it fully for correct discernment.
I DO NOT trust in the wisdom of men, but rather only those things that He confirms by His Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:5. So, I am careful in where my faith stands.
Edit 2:
Thank you for your testimony:
"I was under Satan's deception in the apostate church for 32 years until Christ blessed me with the Latter Rain in 2005. Only with the Latter Rain is a fallen away believer given "eyes that can see" so that they can come out of Satan's deception."
Even the spirit of anti-Christ masquerades as Christ:
>> I can relate to that.
Thanks, Earburner
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
Let me guess, every denomination is wrong and you and those who receive the latter rain are the only ones who are right. You sound very much like Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have just one question, is Jesus God?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I believe "the church" is the body of Christ's followers. Are you talking about that "church", the Catholic Church, or another church?
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