Open Discussion of UR Chapter Five - When Was Hell Invented?

[St. SteVen]

GOOGLE question; "when was the word hell invented?"

GOOGLE's answer;
About 17,400,000 results (0.46 seconds)

The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle
(first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead)
reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who invented Hell?

Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented “Hell”​

“I don’t think hell exists,” said The Right Reverend John Shelby Spong.
“I happen to believe in life after death, but I don’t think it’s got anything to do with reward and punishment.”

Spong is a retired American bishop of the Episcopal Church, and from 1979 to 2000 was the Bishop of Newark in New Jersey, USA.

He shared his view that hell was invented by the Church in order to control people and his comments have since gone viral,
reaching tens of millions of people worldwide (see video below).

Religion invents ideas and concepts just like any creative human enterprise.
Some of these ideas have helped many people find meaning and fulfilment from their lives.
Yet many of the concepts invented by religion have aimed to get people to conform
to a system of behaviors that guarantee an intangible reward in the afterlife.

As Spong says:

“Religion is always in the control business and and that’s something people don’t really understand.
It’s in the guilt-producing control business and if you have heaven as a place where you’re rewarded for
your goodness and hell is a place where you’re punished for your evil then you have control of the population.”

The effect of threatening to punish people for bad behaviors is to stifle their natural curiosity.

He continues:
“So they create this fiery place which has scared the hell out of a lot of people
throughout Christian history, and it’s part of control tactic.”

Spong is suggesting that Hell is a myth and requires people to fear the existence of Hell
in order to help the Church continue to survive.

Source:

Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell"

He is a retired bishop of the Episcopal Church and explains the real reason why the Church invented "Hell".

ideapod.com

/ cc: @Hillsage

 

[Zachariah]

GOOGLE question; "when was the word hell invented?"

GOOGLE's answer;
About 17,400,000 results (0.46 seconds)

The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle
(first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead)
reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who invented Hell?

Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented “Hell”​

“I don’t think hell exists,” said The Right Reverend John Shelby Spong.
“I happen to believe in life after death, but I don’t think it’s got anything to do with reward and punishment.”

Spong is a retired American bishop of the Episcopal Church, and from 1979 to 2000 was the Bishop of Newark in New Jersey, USA.

He shared his view that hell was invented by the Church in order to control people and his comments have since gone viral,
reaching tens of millions of people worldwide (see video below).

Religion invents ideas and concepts just like any creative human enterprise.
Some of these ideas have helped many people find meaning and fulfilment from their lives.
Yet many of the concepts invented by religion have aimed to get people to conform
to a system of behaviors that guarantee an intangible reward in the afterlife.

As Spong says:

“Religion is always in the control business and and that’s something people don’t really understand.
It’s in the guilt-producing control business and if you have heaven as a place where you’re rewarded for
your goodness and hell is a place where you’re punished for your evil then you have control of the population.”

The effect of threatening to punish people for bad behaviors is to stifle their natural curiosity.

He continues:
“So they create this fiery place which has scared the hell out of a lot of people
throughout Christian history, and it’s part of control tactic.”

Spong is suggesting that Hell is a myth and requires people to fear the existence of Hell
in order to help the Church continue to survive.

Source:

Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell"

He is a retired bishop of the Episcopal Church and explains the real reason why the Church invented "Hell".

ideapod.com

The realm of hell has always been. Its enherent to the laws of nature and God. Its like saying "when was summer invented" yes the word summer may have been invented but the underlying cycles or seasons are enherent in nature.

So it raises the question, when was hell forgotten and taken completely out of context?

 

[Grailhunter]

Spong is suggesting that Hell is a myth and requires people to fear the existence of Hell
in order to help the Church continue to survive.

If Hell is a myth, Christ and the Apostles are liars and the New Testament is fiction.

But you are right in part....when was the word Hell introduced into language? The answer to that is simple.....around 725 AD. But the more pressing question is why? The answer to that is also simple....Because the Greek and Latin languages did not have a word for a fiery place of eternal punishment.

Putting ourselves back in the New Testament time period. As religions go, in that time period, Christianity was the Astrophysics of religions. More complicated and spiritual than any other religion. Ever wanted to ask God some questions? Well back then God walked among men. Ever wondered what it would be like to ask God some questions? The Apostles did. Those fireside chats......can you imagine? And the answers blew their minds and challenged their ability to imagine. But their next challenge was to write about things so advanced that their languages did not have words for it. So how did they do that?

The answer to that, they used what they had and improvised. They used the Greek language and modified the meanings of the words and they used visual examples. The Greco-Roman culture did not have the morals of Christianity, so their language did not have words to describe them....for example the Greek word for sin which meant your arrow just missed your target was changed to mean.....you failed to hit the target of morality....wrongful act...transgression against God.

Because there was no word for Hell, Christ used Gehenna as a visual aid to comprehend a place of fiery eternal punishment.
Most know that Gehenna was a trash dump that was always burning trash and dead bodies.

Then they used the Greek word Hades to designate Hell. Why? It was the closest Greek word they had for a place of punishment. Hades was a Greek god that reigned over a "spiritual" place of the same name....For the Greeks it represented a spirit prison, but it was nowhere as horrible as Christ's and the Apostle's understanding of it. So the definition of a fiery place of eternal punishment was add to the Greek word Hades by the biblical writers.

So as time went on there was a need for a word that exactly meant the reality of it all. The word Hell was derived from other sources, from Anglo-Saxon word hellia, derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD. And then the English word Hell, defined as a fiery place of eternal punishment. A fiery place of eternal punishment is real and we call it Hell.

Our modern imagery or details of Hell came from....
The Divine Comedy an Italian narrative poem by Dante Aligieri, begun circa 1308 and completed around 1321, shortly before the author's death. It is widely considered the pre-eminent work in Italian literature and one of the greatest works of world literature.

and

Paradise Lost an epic poem by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). The first version, published in 1667, consists of ten books with over ten thousand lines of verses. A second edition followed in 1674, arranged into twelve books It is considered to be Milton's master piece, and it helped solidify his reputation as one of the greatest English poets of all time.

So the bottom line is that the question; when was hell invented, would not be the right words for the question...more like when was the word Hell developed. Hell is real as Christ and the Apostles described and warned repeatedly.

 

[Zachariah]

If Hell is myth, Christ and the Apostles are liars and the New Testament is fiction.

But you are right in part....when was the word Hell introduced into language? The answer to that is simple.....around 725 AD. But the more pressing question is why? The answer to that is also simple....Because the Greek and Latin languages did not have a word for a fiery place of eternal punishment.

Putting ourselves back in the New Testament time period. As religions go, in that time period, Christianity was the Astrophysics of religions. Ever wanted to ask God some questions? Well back then God walked among men. Ever wondered what it would be like to ask God some questions? The Apostles did. Those fireside chats......can you imagine? And the answers blew their minds and challenged their ability to imagine. But their next challenge was to write about things so advanced that their languages did not have words for it. So how did they do that?

The answer to that, they used what they had and improvised. They used the Greek language and modified the meanings of the words and they used visual examples. For example the Greco-Roman culture did not have the morals of Christianity, so their language did not have words to describe them....for example the Greek word for sin which meant your arrow just missed your target was changed to mean.....you failed to hit the target of morality....wrongful act...transgression against God.

Because there was no word for Hell, Christ used Gehenna as a visual aid to comprehend a place of fiery eternal punishment.
Most know that Gehenna was a trash dump that was always burning trash and dead bodies.

Then they used the Greek word Hades to designate Hell. Why? It was the closest Greek word they had for a place of punishment. Hades was a Greek god that reigned over a "spiritual" place of the same name....For the Greeks it represented a spirit prison, but it was nowhere as horrible as Christ's and the Apostle's understanding of it. So the definition of a fiery place of eternal punishment was add to the Greek word Hades.

So as time went on there was a need for a word that exactly meant the reality of it all. The word Hell was derived from other sources, from Anglo-Saxon word hellia, derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD. And then the English word Hell, defined as a fiery place of eternal punishment. A fiery place of eternal punishment is real and we call it Hell.

Our modern imagery or details of Hell came from....
The Divine Comedy an Italian narrative poem by Dante Aligieri, begun circa 1308 and completed around 1321, shortly before the author's death. It is widely considered the pre-eminent work in Italian literature and one of the greatest works of world literature.

and

Paradise Lost an epic poem by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). The first version, published in 1667, consists of ten books with over ten thousand lines of verses. A second edition followed in 1674, arranged into twelve books It is considered to be Milton's master piece, and it helped solidify his reputation as one of the greatest English poets of all time.

So the bottom line is that the question; when was hell invented, would not be the right words for the question...more like when was hell developed. Hell is real as Christ and the Apostles described and warned repeatedly.

So many people get Hell and the underworld mixed up. Hell and Heaven are of light. Earth and the underworld are of darkness.

 

[Grailhunter]

So many people get Hell and the underworld mixed up. Hell and Heaven are of light. Earth and the underworld are of darkness.

The concept of an "underworld" is mostly Pagan.
And the concept of "Hell and Heaven are of light. Earth and the underworld are of darkness" is a close description of what Gnostics believe.

Christian understanding of Hell as an eternal fiery place of punishment is real. The discussion of physical light and spiritual light is another topic and discussion. And what is earth in the physical and spiritual is another topic and discussion.

 

[Zachariah]

T

The concept of an "underworld" is mostly Pagan.
And the concept of "Hell and Heaven are of light. Earth and the underworld are of darkness" is a close description of what Gnostics believe.

Christian understanding of Hell as an eternal fiery place of punishment is real. The discussion of physical light and spiritual light is another topic and discussion. And what is earth in the physical and spiritual is another topic and discussion.

There all depictions of the same thing with different stories. Gnostics, pagan etc. The underworld for Christians is normally depicted as the outer darkness, valley of the shadow of death, gods judgment, wilderness, repentance and even water. The darkness is often confused with the ultimate evil of hell. The angels of hell always bring false light. It is deception because it does contain truth but it has an evil motive. Some research into other religions especially gnostic texts help widen your understanding. I highly suggest it if that's what your after. There are two options really when it comes to Christianity, we can attain a surface level of understanding and believe the words of the bible to be true and add the basic principles to our lifestyle or we dig deep within the words and attain its esoteric knowlage which ultimately bring us to the source. In understanding it at its core philosophical/spiritual level it brings true awareness of self. We dont just believe anymore, we know. The Gnostics would call this "gnosis" which basicly means to truly know something from having experienced it. But its up to the individual, most people can't be bothered, but for me I love to go as deep as I can.

 

[Grailhunter]

T

There all depictions of the same thing with different stories. Gnostics, pagan etc. The underworld for Christians is normally depicted as the outer darkness, valley of the shadow of death, gods judgment, wilderness, repentance and even water. The darkness is often confused with the ultimate evil of hell. The angels of hell always bring false light. It is deception because it does contain truth but it has an evil motive. Some research into other religions especially gnostic texts help widen your understanding. I highly suggest it if that's what your after. There are two options really when it comes to Christianity, we can attain a surface level of understanding and believe the words of the bible to be true and add the basic principles to our lifestyle or we dig deep within the words and attain its esoteric knowlage which ultimately bring us to the source. In understanding it at its core philosophical/spiritual level it brings true awareness of self. We dont just believe anymore, we know. The Gnostics would call this "gnosis" which basicly means to truly know something from having experienced it. But its up to the individual, most people can't be bothered, but for me I love to go as deep as I can.

I am not sure if it is deep....it is extra. I went through all of the Jewish and Christian extra-biblical writings in college. What I find most useful about them is you can see what some people are thinking in a general sense in that time period.

--->attain a surface level of understanding and believe the words of the bible to be true and add the basic principles to our lifestyle or we dig deep within the words and attain its esoteric knowledge which ultimately bring us to the source.<---
The Bible is really not the surface level....foundation or core is more accurate. The extra-biblical writing are all over the place and some of it is rather klondike. You really cannot nail Gnosticism down to a single religion. And even if you wanted to practice antient Gnosticism it would be difficult because the Gnostics were secretive so we don't know much about them. There is some philosophical thought there but as far as incorporating it into your religious beliefs?....I cannot recommend it.

The big difference between the Bible and extra-biblical writings is that the people that wrote the extra-biblical writings did not know Christ. There is something to be said about the level of understanding obtained by being with Him, walking with a God.....those fireside chats. That is the deeper understanding. Nothing can compare to walking with a God.

The tickling of the ear......the imaginative possibilities of the mind that the mystical can entertain. It is part of the study of Christianity, but not from a real theological stand-point but more of a sampling of the culture and thought of the time period.

 

[Lambano]

When was Hell invented?

Dinanzi a me non fuor cose create
se non etterne, e io etterno duro.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch’intrate'.

​

 

[Zachariah]

I am not sure if it is deep....it is extra. I went through all of the Jewish and Christian extra-biblical writings in college. What I find most useful about them is you can see what some people are thinking in a general sense in that time period.

--->attain a surface level of understanding and believe the words of the bible to be true and add the basic principles to our lifestyle or we dig deep within the words and attain its esoteric knowledge which ultimately bring us to the source.<---
The Bible is really not the surface level....foundation or core is more accurate. The extra-biblical writing are all over the place and some of it is rather klondike. You really cannot nail Gnosticism down to a single religion. And even if you wanted to practice antient Gnosticism it would be difficult because the Gnostics were secretive so we don't know much about them. There is some philosophical thought there but as far as incorporating it into your religious beliefs?....I cannot recommend it.

The big difference between the Bible and extra-biblical writings is that the people that wrote the extra-biblical writings did not know Christ. There is something to be said about the level of understanding obtained by being with Him, walking with a God.....those fireside chats. That is the deeper understanding. Nothing can compare to walking with a God.

The tickling of the ear......the imaginative possibilities of the mind that the mystical can entertain. It is part of the study of Christianity, but not from a real theological stand-point but more of a sampling of the culture and thought of the time period.

It was the Romans, Catholics and false Christianity that burnt the Gnostics alive along with most of there scripts. This is why they went into hiding or is what the real meaning of the world occult means. "To be hidden from sight". Its the same for the mystics who made the Tarot deck. They made these cards to communicate spiritul truths in a time when the emperials where enslaving people and demonising anyone that didn't comply with their controled religion. "The new age movement" where people read your future with Tarot cards is rubbish and was not at all the intended reason for them. Its the same with Plato, pagans and astrology. People still to this day demonise things like this within the church whe they have no real understanding of what they truly are. At the same time the new age movement has given them a bad look and taken them completely out of context. But its the same with Christianity, that has been taken cometely out of context to. People believe in immaculate conception and have a complete deception on what a "mericle" is. I see that even tho people study and debate the bible, they are debating superficial aspects and the physicality of the events. This is not how we see the Truth. For e.g. what does it mean to turn water into wine? Very few people know this and Its critical to understand properly yet no 1 knows really. It baffles me.but like I said before, you really got to want it. There is more to know. The truth beyond the words is something truly magnificent.

 

[St. SteVen]

The realm of hell has always been. Its enherent to the laws of nature and God. Its like saying "when was summer invented" yes the word summer may have been invented but the underlying cycles or seasons are enherent in nature.

So it raises the question, when was hell forgotten and taken completely out of context?

Seems like a matter of definitions.
Your definition of hell is quite different than mainstream Christianity, right?

 

[St. SteVen]

It was the Romans, Catholics and false Christianity that burnt the Gnostics alive along with most of there scripts. This is why they went into hiding or is what the real meaning of the world occult means. "To be hidden from sight". Its the same for the mystics who made the Tarot deck. They made these cards to communicate spiritul truths in a time when the emperials where enslaving people and demonising anyone that didn't comply with their controled religion. "The new age movement" where people read your future with Tarot cards is rubbish and was not at all the intended reason for them. Its the same with Plato, pagans and astrology. People still to this day demonise things like this within the church whe they have no real understanding of what they truly are. At the same time the new age movement has given them a bad look and taken them completely out of context. But its the same with Christianity, that has been taken cometely out of context to. People believe in immaculate conception and have a complete deception on what a "mericle" is. I see that even tho people study and debate the bible, they are debating superficial aspects and the physicality of the events. This is not how we see the Truth. For e.g. what does it mean to turn water into wine? Very few people know this and Its critical to understand properly yet no 1 knows really. It baffles me.but like I said before, you really got to want it. There is more to know. The truth beyond the words is something truly magnificent.

I have wondered about the casting of lots for decision making in the Bible.
Like the the Urim and the Thummim in the priest's breastplate.

Exodus 28:30 NIV
Also put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron’s heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the Lord.

Acts 1:26 NIV
Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[Zachariah]

Seems like a matter of definitions.
Your definition of hell is quite different than mainstream Christianity, right?

Most things are much simpler than they seem. Hell is simply the realm of destruction and chaos. Its the polaric opposite of creation. Both however are relient and dependent apon each other. Both create and define each other. The bush needs the burning of fire to rejuvenate and the fire needs the bush to burn. Anything we see as destructive in the world is the manifestation of Hell in the physicle domain. When it comes to the human psyche it is anger and the emotions that surround. When we become angry, for most people, the "evil one" is born. This is the Son of hell. The Son of hell or "the evil one" upholds the will of destruction through a place of envy. Kill steal and destroy. As within, so without.

My view and understanding of Hell comes in alignment with with all authentic religious traditions. This is how i know I have found Truth. It all comes down to corralative thinking. If you struggle with corralative thinking and pattern recognition, you will struggle to see Truth.

 

[quietthinker]

Open Discussion of UR Chapter Five - When Was Hell Invented?​

2023?....no? let me try again, 1939-1945?....I knew something wasn't right, maybe AD 73... the sacking of Masada?
Now I'm confused, I s'pose God just couldn't resist a barbecue and invented it a few thousand BC before he created Adam?....no?

Ok, I'll have another bite at the barbecue question;..... the devil and his angels in conjunction with all who insist on the lyrics of Frankie boy's song, 'I'll do it my waaaayyyyy' ?

You can hand me my diploma of theology live on twitter.....ahhhh, a small revision.....Phd!... Ahhhh, that feels better! :)

 

[St. SteVen]

Now I'm confused, I s'pose God just couldn't resist a barbecue and invented it a few thousand BC before he created Adam?....no?

Yes, the whole idea is bizarre when you think about it.
The worst tyrants in history have done nothing to top the sheer sadistic malevolence of what the church defines as hell.
Burning forever with no hope of escape. Seriously?

 

[Grailhunter]

It was the Romans, Catholics and false Christianity that burnt the Gnostics alive along with most of there scripts. This is why they went into hiding or is what the real meaning of the world occult means. "To be hidden from sight". Its the same for the mystics who made the Tarot deck. They made these cards to communicate spiritul truths in a time when the emperials where enslaving people and demonising anyone that didn't comply with their controled religion. "The new age movement" where people read your future with Tarot cards is rubbish and was not at all the intended reason for them. Its the same with Plato, pagans and astrology. People still to this day demonise things like this within the church whe they have no real understanding of what they truly are. At the same time the new age movement has given them a bad look and taken them completely out of context. But its the same with Christianity, that has been taken cometely out of context to. People believe in immaculate conception and have a complete deception on what a "mericle" is. I see that even tho people study and debate the bible, they are debating superficial aspects and the physicality of the events. This is not how we see the Truth. For e.g. what does it mean to turn water into wine? Very few people know this and Its critical to understand properly yet no 1 knows really. It baffles me.but like I said before, you really got to want it. There is more to know. The truth beyond the words is something truly magnificent.

Before we get to far along here for people that want to look into Gnostic history, Wikipedia has a pretty good write up.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As you probably know the Gnostics did not call themselves Gnostics.
A lot of the information and perspectives that comes forward is from Christian writings opposing Gnosticism.
The Catholic Church was very intent on keeping one faith, which is not a bad thing, but when they crossed the line to physical harm that introduced sin. As far as persecutions we know of a few groups that were annihilated by the Catholic Church. A lot of them were not persecuted because of their secrecy. The same thing goes for Roman persecutions.

There were several branches back then....but because they were secretive we only know so much about them....but more information has been found, in different areas. And there was a certain popularity with Christians. By the time the Gospel of John came out Christian were hungrily for more information. The Christian churches accepted John but there were those that noted that the Gospel of John had some Gnostic aspects....for example the concept of the Logos came from the 6th century BC Greek schools of thought and there are other aspects. And a God with three aspects in common in Greco-Roman mythology.

And as we know Gnosticism came forward into modern times and there are several denominations that now call themselves Gnostic. Do these denominations practice and apply the beliefs of ancient Gnostics?....it is hard to say. Is the New Age Movement Gnostic? It has some aspects of Gnosticism but the New Age Movement is not organized.

The meaning of the word occult does mean cut off or hidden but do not hug that word too much, because that describes Gnosticism .....not the definition of the word occult but meaning of the word.

Miracles and magic....there is some humor here....if Christ or the Apostles did it, it is called a miracle....if some in Gnosticism our witchcraft does it, it is called magic. A good part of Protestantism does not even believe in modern miracles. So when you talk about doing something to be able to talk to spirits you have crossed that line to occult or witchcraft, even though some Christians speak in tongues. Is this correct? It is debatable.

But one thing you are definitely wrong about. You look at Gnosticism as a higher level of understanding. One could ask which Gnostic group? But either way the Bible is not a shallow understanding of Christianity....It is the foundation given to us from people that knew and walked and talked to a God. They did not need rituals or tarot cards.....they walked with God and got that information straight from His lips. Gnosticism is something that men came up with.....better to trust God.

 

[Zachariah]

"The earth abides by the fire therein."
The Quaran.

Meaning the ego abides by anger and evil, or the slave abides by Pharaoh.

The bush abides by its need to burn.

 

[St. SteVen]

The bush abides by its need to burn.

Okay, I have to ask...

What's your take on the burning bush? (Moses)

Note: The bush didn't burn up.

 

[St. SteVen]

You can hand me my diploma of theology live on twitter.....ahhhh, a small revision.....Phd!... Ahhhh, that feels better! :)

Way overdue, my friend. Congrats!
I just noticed that you listed your age as 113.
That's quite an accomplishment.
I'm afraid to ask you how much you weigh. - LOL

cc: @Patrick1966

 

[Zachariah]

Before we get to far along here for people that want to look into Gnostic history, Wikipedia has a pretty good write up.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As you probably know the Gnostics did not call themselves Gnostics.
A lot of the information and perspectives that comes forward is from Christian writings opposing Gnosticism.
The Catholic Church was very intent on keeping one faith, which is not a bad thing, but when they crossed the line to physical harm that introduced sin. As far as persecutions we know of a few groups that were annihilated by the Catholic Church. A lot of them were not persecuted because of their secrecy. The same thing goes for Roman persecutions.

There were several branches back then....but because they were secretive we only know so much about them....but more information has been found, in different areas. And there was a certain popularity with Christians. By the time the Gospel of John came out Christian were hungrily for more information. The Christian churches accepted John but there were those that noted that the Gospel of John had some Gnostic aspects....for example the concept of the Logos came from the 6th century BC Greek schools of thought and there are other aspects. And a God with three aspects in common in Greco-Roman mythology.

And as we know Gnosticism came forward into modern times and there are several denominations that now call themselves Gnostic. Do these denominations practice and apply the beliefs of ancient Gnostics?....it is hard to say. Is the New Age Movement Gnostic? It has some aspects of Gnosticism but the New Age Movement is not organized.

The meaning of the word occult does mean cut off or hidden but do not hug that word too much, because that describes Gnosticism .....not the definition of the word occult but meaning of the word.

Miracles and magic....there is some humor here....if Christ or the Apostles did it, it is called a miracle....if some in Gnosticism our witchcraft does it, it is called magic. A good part of Protestantism does not even believe in modern miracles. So when you talk about doing something to be able to talk to spirits you have crossed that line to occult or witchcraft, even though some Christians speak in tongues. Is this correct? It is debatable.

But one thing you are definitely wrong about. You look at Gnosticism as a higher level of understanding. One could ask which Gnostic group? But either way the Bible is not a shallow understanding of Christianity....It is the foundation given to us from people that knew and walked and talked to a God. They did not need rituals or tarot cards.....they walked with God and got that information straight from His lips. Gnosticism is something that men came up with.....better to trust God.

Great input, thank you. I think you miss read the last part tho. I do not claim anything to be exclusive rather the added perspective always gives a higher awareness. Christianity in conjunction with Gnostic teachings or anything else for that matter gives us a greater perspective. When we sit on our porch and view the landscape and Gods creation we have one perapective. When we view it from another location we widen our perspective and ultimately our understanding. Great reply thank you.

 

[Zachariah]

Okay, I have to ask...

What's your take on the burning bush? (Moses)

Note: The bush didn't burn up.

This is to depict one of two generative principles. Genesis. Fire and earth in balance. Passion. Or... controled anger. A contained fire that sustains life.

As within, so without.