Nope, not from a denier of Jesus Christ deity ! I refuse to re-engage or engage with any that deny Jesus is God, my Lord & my saviour !
Call me what you will but I stand on what the word of God states plainly!
A Form of godliness
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Call me what you will but I stand on what the word of God states plainly!
face2face
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Interesting where you get your information from-
Show me ONE Scripture reference where God worked THROUGH/DIA THE angels-to bring about the creation in existence-
Who is the God of the Old Testament?
How surprising and straightforward is the answer; yet it eludes the thinking of many. Genesis begins with God creating our world. The apostle John opens his gospel similarly by revealing who that God is:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3, 14)
As this passage patently declares, the Word is Jesus Christ. He is God and is the Creator God of Genesis. “All things were made through Him.”
“Word” here is translated from the Greek logos. Strong’s Concordance begins its definition as “something said.” In his Key Word Study Bible, Spiros Zodhiates begins his entry with “to speak.” Recall the method the Creator God used to create: He used words; He spoke. The Logos, the One who speaks, spoke this world and everything in it into existence (Genesis 1:3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24, and 26).
Paul also testifies in Colossians 1:16 that Christ was the Creator:
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Paul repeats John’s idea in John 1:1 of the world being created “through Him,” indicating that Another authorized the works carried out by the Word. In the same verse, John affirms that another God Being was present: “the Word was with God.” Genesis 1:26 begins, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image.’” The “Us” is the Word and the other God, the One we now know as the Father (John 17:5).
What you say-and what stands written-is not the same.
Nothing here re "angels being agents in creation!"
No need to respond.
J.
So the only true God-you are tampering with and reduce Him as a Angel and an Mighty One?!
(5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
How long will you dare before you totally misrepresent of what stands written?
No need to respond.
J.
face2face
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@Wrangler
Out of interest, seeing we are looking at this subject, have you ever looked at Isaiah 45:18 before?
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the Lord says, the one who created the sky— he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited— “I am the Lord, I have no peer.
hu ha-Elohim?
F2F
Out of interest, seeing we are looking at this subject, have you ever looked at Isaiah 45:18 before?
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the Lord says, the one who created the sky— he is the true God, the one who formed the earth and made it; he established it, he did not create it without order, he formed it to be inhabited— “I am the Lord, I have no peer.
hu ha-Elohim?
F2F
face2face
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It looks like you are "punching the air" Johann...you ask me a question, then tell me not to respond.
So said the Lord, "The toil of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and shall be yours; they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains, and they shall prostrate themselves before you, they shall pray to you, "Only in you is God and there is no other god. ידכֹּ֣ה | אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה יְגִ֨יעַ מִצְרַ֥יִם וּֽסֲחַר־כּוּשׁ֘ וּסְבָאִים֘ אַנְשֵׁ֣י מִדָּה֒ עָלַ֚יִךְ יַֽעֲבֹ֙רוּ֙ וְלָ֣ךְ יִֽהְי֔וּ אַֽחֲרַ֣יִךְ יֵלֵ֔כוּ בַּזִּקִּ֖ים יַֽעֲבֹ֑רוּ וְאֵלַ֚יִךְ יִשְׁתַּֽחֲווּ֙ אֵלַ֣יִךְ יִתְפַּלָּ֔לוּ אַ֣ךְ בָּ֥ךְ אֵ֛ל וְאֵ֥ין ע֖וֹד אֶ֥פֶס אֱלֹהִֽים:
For so said the Lord, the Creator of heaven, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, He established it; He did not create it for a waste, He formed it to be inhabited, "I am the Lord and there is no other. יחכִּי־כֹ֣ה אָמַר־יְ֠הֹוָה בּוֹרֵ֨א הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים יֹצֵ֨ר הָאָ֚רֶץ וְעֹשָׂהּ֙ ה֣וּא כֽוֹנְנָ֔הּ לֹֽא־תֹ֥הוּ בְרָאָ֖הּ לָשֶׁ֣בֶת יְצָרָ֑הּ אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה וְאֵ֥ין עֽוֹד:
No mention of malachim here either. You are veering off of what stands written.
No need to respond.
J.
So give me a scripture reference that states creation came into existence through the intermediatory agency of angels
-and after that-will put you on ignore.
Johann.
face2face
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You're not doing so well Johann...it's pointless conversing with you with this mindset.
F2F
VictoryinJesus
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Having a form …makes me think of the passage I’ve been stuck on for weeks now.
“They exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds, and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Who …being the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
To me what stands out is that Jesus Christ did not think it was robbery to submit to “not my will, but Father Your Will be done.” Thinking it (not) robbery to take on the Form of the Will of the Father and not the will of man. As in “rejoice” counting it not as loss(robbery) but instead gain to be in the form of God … Paul said the same. That it isn’t robbery but gain.
I’ve always heard He lowered Himself taking on the form of a servant as giving up the form of God. But to me that was when He was made equal to God in long-suffering and that He willingly thought this being in the form (the expressed form of God) of a servant was not robbery but gaining all things in the Father of Spirits who is for our gain that we be made like unto His Form…? What Form is God? If not I am of a lowly heart, of a humble Spirit. Not with the spirit of pride. With those of a contrite and broken heart. God; AS An “Comforter”, an “Healer”, an “Helper”… a Servant. Jesus Christ not as a servant of sin…but AS a Servant of the Fathers Holiness…where we read the attributes of the Spirit of God …where having the form of man may count it as robbery and pride says “too weak” “too silly” “too doesn’t make sense at all because that gets stomped on” “that form gets overtaken” “taken advantage of” …as in something robbed or stolen away to be anywhere near those “mediocre” attributes of the Father of Christ. Yet we love Jesus the suffering servant making it so we don’t have to deal with any robbery or loss of having a form of an image.
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You cannot bring ONE Scripture reference that creation came into being through the intermediatory agency of angels-
Floor is yours
1. Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Read More
by him all things were created. Jesus did not come into existence when he was born of the virgin Mary.
He was the agent of creation through whom God made heaven and earth (John 1:3).
Jesus cannot be the first thing created (as the ancient Arian heresy claimed) since “all things” without exception were created by him. thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.
Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the goal of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise. Since Jesus is in this sense the goal of creation, he must be fully God.
2. Genesis 1:1–2
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Read More
In the beginning. This opening verse can be taken as a summary, introducing the whole passage; or it can be read as the first even, the origin of the heavens and the earth (sometime before the first day), including the creation of matter, space, and time. This second view (the origin of the heavens and the earth) is confirmed by the NT writers’ affirmation that creation was from nothing (Heb. 11:3; Rev. 4:11). God created. Although the Hebrew word for “God,” ’Elohim, is plural in form (possibly to express majesty), the verb “create” is singular, indicating that God is thought of as one being.
Genesis is consistently monotheistic in its outlook, in marked contrast to other ancient Near Eastern accounts of creation. There is only one God. The Hebrew verb bara’, “create,” is always used in the OT with God as the subject; while it is not always used to describe creation out of nothing, it does stress God’s sovereignty and power. Heavens and the earth here means “everything.” This means, then, that “In the beginning” refers to the beginning of everything. The text indicates that God created everything in the universe, which thus affirms that he did in fact create it ex nihilo (Latin “out of nothing”). The effect of the opening words of the Bible is to establish that God, in his inscrutable wisdom, sovereign power, and majesty, is the Creator of all things that exist.
3. John 1:1–3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In the beginning was the Word echoes the opening phrase of the book of Genesis, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” John will soon identify this Word as Jesus (John 1:14), but here he locates Jesus’ existence in eternity past with God.
The term “the Word” (Gk. Logos) conveys the notion of divine self-expression or speech and has a rich OT background. God’s Word is effective: God speaks, and things come into being (Gen. 1:3, 9; Ps. 33:6; Ps. 107:20; Isa. 55:10–11), and by speech he relates personally to his people (e.g., Gen. 15:1). John also shows how this concept of “the Word” is superior to a Greek philosophical concept of “Word” (logos) as an impersonal principle of Reason that gave order to the universe. And the Word was with God indicates interpersonal relationship “with” God, but then and the Word was God affirms that this Word was also the same God who created the universe “in the beginning.”
From the Patristic period (Arius, c. A.D. 256–336) until the present day (Jehovah’s Witnesses), some have claimed that “the Word was God” merely identifies Jesus as a god rather than identifying Jesus as God, because the Greek word for God, Theos, is not preceded by a definite article.
However, in Greek grammar, Colwell’s Rule indicates that the translation “a god” is not required, for lack of an article does not necessarily indicate indefiniteness (“a god”) but rather specifies that a given term (“God”) is the predicate nominative of a definite subject (“the Word”). This means that the context must determine the meaning of Theos here, and the context clearly indicates that this “God” that John is talking about (“the Word”) is the one true God who created all things (see also John 1:6, 12, 13, 18 for other examples of Theos without a definite article but clearly meaning “God”).
1-ONE scripture reference that creation came into being through the intermediatory agency of angels-
Waiting
Johann.
Wrangler
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I concur with @Aunty Jane
A form of godliness (morphōsin eusebeias). For morphōsin, see note on Rom_2:20. The outward shape without the reality.
Having denied (ērnēmenoi). Perfect middle participle of arneomai (see note on Rom_2:11.).
That says it all-
Power (dunamin). See 1Co_4:20. See Rom_1:29-31 for similar description.
Turn away (apotrepou). Present middle (direct) imperative of apotrepō, “turn thyself away from.” Old verb, only here in N.T. See 4 Maccabees 1:33.
RWA
A form (μόρφωσιν)
Only here and Rom_2:20. Μορφὴ Form (for the want of any other rendering) is the expression or embodiment of the essential and permanent being of that which is expressed Μόρφωσις, lit. forming or shaping. Yet the meaning differs in different passages. In Rom_2:20, μόρφωσις is the truthful embodiment of knowledge and truth as contained in the law of God. Here, the mere outward semblance, as distinguished from the essential reality.
Having an outward "show"-void of what really matters-the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
Johann.
Interesting-where was Jesus BEFORE He became 2Aorist?
Since Jesus had NO beginning and no ending?
Johann.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That’s why I put him on ignore a long time ago.
Punching the air. That’s a good expression.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Transliteration: morphē
Morphology: N-DFS
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G3444 (μορφή)
Meaning: Form, shape, outward appearance.
Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning.
See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers.
In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character.
Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable. Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form. For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality.
Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.
This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular.
It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence. It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire. To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being.
Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation. As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.
This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.
MV
I think this is well said.
Johann.
No problem-I'm still here.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
-running this race patiently-with godly, faithful brothers and sisters in Christ-and know how to pace myself with the help of the Holy Spirit-slowly catching up to you "spiritual giants"
Johann.
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Wrangler
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There are 2 things that stand out to me.
- Twisted NOT
- Thought not IS.
1. Some want to read the sentence as if it does not have a negation.
If one says he was NOT over my house at 6 PM, it states a negative; it does not state the positive of what time he did come over your house, presuming he came over at all.
2. If I say I thought I’d go over someone’s house, it is NOT the same as I actually achieved that it reality.
VictoryinJesus
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I don’t understand. “Thought not IS”
Do you mean “He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
Not “IS” equal to God?
How do we define “equal” ? I meanGod asked them often how they said His ways were not equal…but God then asked them to consider it was their ways which were not equal.
What is “equal” …is it alike …or “it is enough the student becomes as the teacher” as …will be like?
Consider “A discipline is not above his teacher, nor a slave above His Master. It is enough that he become like his teacher and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul how much more will they mangling the members of the house.”
“A Pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like the teacher.”
VictoryinJesus
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How often Christ said “the Doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me”
All the verses of He was taught by the things he suffered. Or that He was made a quick study. taught of the Father who was the Teacher, Jesus Christ Taught of. Not above the Master but the servant as the (alike, equal(to me means in agreement, not one leg or foot or hand unequally unbalanced) in the Master, Teacher.
Is made equal…or like unto…or made as the Teacher, a bad thing?
Can we look at God and Jesus Christ and blame …they are not equal. They are not alike?
Jesus said “it is enough” could it be be “enough” that the student become like His Teacher. And the servant as His Master?
Paul said this also in “not I live, but Christ lives in me.” Attributing the teaching to being taught the Doctrine of God by “the Revelation of Jesus Christ.” Is it counted as robbery to be equal, made “alike” to the Revelation of Jesus Christ which was given to Jesus Christ of the Father to show unto His servants. The student or being trained ..made alike unto the teacher.
I can’t stress enough what is to be made equal in reference to a body where one leg is shorter than the other and lame? They blamed God over and over for not being equal and lame (Imo)…but he said “no. You are the ones who are unequal.” “Not alike”
Made Equal to God sounds like a truly dirty word. Because satan desired to be above God. Made “like unto God” …”as” God “equal unto God” alike to God … but Jesus Christ was like unto God, “as” God (Father and Son likeness, same as) because the “this is My Son” ways pleased the LORD Master Teacher Father …Jesus Christ being made “like” “as” His teacher, Master. And satan “like” “as” the father of all lies.
Is it dirty to suggest Christ and the Father are alike. The extension …expression of God …equally alike no part coming up short or unequally walk together
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