Since this is a reply to my post, please show me where I indicated """a new legalism"""" in it.
Faith without works is dead
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Since this is a reply to my post, please show me where I indicated """a new legalism"""" in it.
Well here's something I learnt recently:
The Law = works > righteousness imputed
Grace = righteousness > works
The Law = works > righteousness imputed
Grace = righteousness > works
Does no one have any understanding here! The law most stated in scripture that you are using to say the law is hung on the cross is the sacrifical law which was fulfilled by Christ on the cross. The next thing that you seem to have a problem with is Christ being sent only to the Jews, but at the tearing of the veil and the ministry of Paul the Word was sent to all who believed as stated in Acts 10 when Peter was sent to the Roman Centurian who was a believer. Most of you will find any chance to say you are not under the law and that is true as it is your choice to abide by the law out of love or be without law and be forsaken by Christ. You all practice lawlessness, which as you know is against the teachings of Christ and Paul, as they both kept the laws of God. The sign of God is the 4th Commandment of the ten and nothing that you say will ever change that and once the tribulation starts it will determine whether you are one of His own or belong to Satan. 10% of the new testament is from the old testament quoted directly, thus how can the laws of the old testament be different from the laws of the new testament? Yes there are some differences, but they were foretold many times in the old testament long before being implimented in the new testament. So, if first day worship is Biblical, then where is it foretold in the old testament. It is in Papal literature from the Catholic Church, but not foretold in scripture. So, it is not Biblical! Now you say that I am trying to scare you with this and have you ever read the prophets warnings to Israel and others? Are the trying to scare people straight, yes. They always had a warning and a blessing for keeping the laws of God, just as I am doing. Face the tribulation or face the wrath of God, a blessing and a curse.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
I find this rather offensive. Not that it offends me, but rather the sacrifice made by Jesus at Calvary. The Jews under the law were kept in good standing with God by the sacrifices of bulls and goats. This stance you are taking holds the blood of Jesus as inferior to those sacrifices that you claim He fulfilled, since we are apparently not kept in good standing with God by His blood. Now we are under obligation to keep the law as well as believe in the sacrifice of Jesus? We have to save ourselves by our works even though Jesus is called our Savior? We have to believe in Jesus plus keep the law, for justification? Dung!!!
I like this...gonna pinch it if you don't mind!
Amen.
People can keep all the old laws if it makes them feel closer to God...I don't care. But the moment they use them to lessen Christ's all encompassing, once for all work on the cross, they step over a line.
Rach,
So, how do you know that Christ is who He said He is? The information in the new testament is not sufficient to determine His being who He said He is, thus the only way to determine His authority is from the old testament. But if the old testament is used for this, how is it that the laws given by Christ to all are not given the benefit of the doubt. Christ is the one made the sun and moon so we would know when His Holy Days were in Genesis 1:14. There is the first instance of the laws of God being given to us. If they were that important that He gave them first, are they not as important today?
In order to prove the identity of Christ the old testament has to be used as His birth was foretold many times in different books of the bible. He was the one who wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger on tablets of stone. Do you actually believe that He would throw all of them out for you so there would be nothing that you need to do to be pecular unto Him? All of His own are not of the normal Christian sect, as they have to be different in order to show that they are His own. The Sabbath has and will always be the defining point to be His own and that will never change. Why would the Sabbath be such a bone of contention for all of those centuries and now be abolished to make it easier to be His Own? God never changes and His laws never change unless He foretells of it a looong time in advance and there is no foretelling of first day worship or the removal of His laws. He consistantly refers to the remnant as His own, not the vast majority, but the remnant! The Bible is not written to the masses of unbelievers, but to the supposed believers who call themselves Christians and then post fishes on the back of their autos as a sign of their affiliation to Him. How dumb are they, as that symbol is the fish god's and second Commandment forbids any physical display of their faith. Only through their actions are they to be known as Christians. But Dagon would be pleased to see so many supporters of his religion, if he were real instead of just an idol. Remember that when the tribulaton starts you will not be allowed to change your affiliation with paganism and will face the wrath of God and suffer the second death for your not following His rules given in His Book.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
So, how do you know that Christ is who He said He is? The information in the new testament is not sufficient to determine His being who He said He is, thus the only way to determine His authority is from the old testament. But if the old testament is used for this, how is it that the laws given by Christ to all are not given the benefit of the doubt. Christ is the one made the sun and moon so we would know when His Holy Days were in Genesis 1:14. There is the first instance of the laws of God being given to us. If they were that important that He gave them first, are they not as important today?
In order to prove the identity of Christ the old testament has to be used as His birth was foretold many times in different books of the bible. He was the one who wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger on tablets of stone. Do you actually believe that He would throw all of them out for you so there would be nothing that you need to do to be pecular unto Him? All of His own are not of the normal Christian sect, as they have to be different in order to show that they are His own. The Sabbath has and will always be the defining point to be His own and that will never change. Why would the Sabbath be such a bone of contention for all of those centuries and now be abolished to make it easier to be His Own? God never changes and His laws never change unless He foretells of it a looong time in advance and there is no foretelling of first day worship or the removal of His laws. He consistantly refers to the remnant as His own, not the vast majority, but the remnant! The Bible is not written to the masses of unbelievers, but to the supposed believers who call themselves Christians and then post fishes on the back of their autos as a sign of their affiliation to Him. How dumb are they, as that symbol is the fish god's and second Commandment forbids any physical display of their faith. Only through their actions are they to be known as Christians. But Dagon would be pleased to see so many supporters of his religion, if he were real instead of just an idol. Remember that when the tribulaton starts you will not be allowed to change your affiliation with paganism and will face the wrath of God and suffer the second death for your not following His rules given in His Book.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
You know, I sort of get tired of reading lots of writing with no Scripture, just saying . . . .
So now I'll join in this 'entertaining' discussion . . .
So am I going to assume, that the Sabbath was given for the Jews? Just as circumcision was?
Btw, I would really like that question answered. Who was the Sabbath given to? Who was commanded to follow it?
Okay, I already know you and I won't see eye to eye on this, but I will answer your questions none the less.
Okay. Firstly, yes, many passages in the OT helped determine who Jesus was/is. But those passages were prophetic ones, and not speaking of the laws. So there's a big difference there right away. We know that the old covenant observances pointed to a future reality that was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ:
Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his unspiritual mind. He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God. If you died with the Messiah to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: “Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch”? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence(Col 2:16-23)
Paul is also blindingly clear about a Christian's current state of 'righteousness'...it's ALL in Christ:
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. (Romans 6:14 ESV)
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! (Romans 6:15 ESV)
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:4-6 ESV)
Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Corinthians 3:5-6 ESV)
'All the laws given by Christ'?...I know Jesus said this:
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40 ESV)
Jesus gives us many things to pursue by grace, and teaches us to live in a manner worthy of the gift we've been given. But never once does he tell us we need to observe the mosaic law. We need not sacrifice ever again...He was the perfect sacrifice. We need to worry of our righteousness again...his perfect righteousness has been placed upon us. We need not worry of what we eat or how we dress or what days we observe, because...
He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:20)
Our salvation is entirely dependant on Jesus, and that's exactly what the OT prophets were talking about. It's also exactly what the Mosaic covenant was leading to.
Okay...the mosaic laws had a specific purpose...which was fulfilled and completed in Christ when he came. The huge problem with most people is that they think that this great, cosmic, salvation story, somehow features them. No, there is no doubt we benefit from it, but God is the star. The commandments where given to show us how glorious God is, how fallen we are, and how badly we need him. They point to Christ coming and fulfilling something we never could, freeing us from the law and awakening us into his grace. This act not only redeems us, it glorifies him!
In love He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved (Eph 1:5-6)
It's not about what boxes I must tick, what hoops I need to jump through to receive God's favour, it's about how through God himself, I receive that favour free. It's about how I now spend my life praising and glorifying him for what's he done.
Ah, I feel I must point again to the verse up top...you know, Col 2, where is says specifically, that no one is to judge in regards to the Sabbath? You might say that a 'sabbath day' is different, but I say semantics, and that you're reaching, and that in doing so, you're completely ignoring the whole intent of the passage. We also see this sentiment elsewhere:
You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. (Galatians 4:10-11 ESV)
'Day and months and seasons and years' were all part of the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic covenant. To require Christians to follow such OT laws is to forfeit the gospel of justification by faith alone, in Christ alone. This also clearly implies that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant.
As far as God not changing his laws...unless he foretells it a looong time...the entire OT is filled with the predictions of Christ, and what he would come to do. 'The lamb of God'...pretty specific reference to the sacrifice he'd make. The exodus? Whoever was 'marked with the blood of the lamb' would be passed over for death. This was before the Mosaic commandments, before the 'Sabbath'. Jesus was always going to come and fulfil and complete his law....and I must point out that fulfilling the law is very different from 'voiding' it. We see in Luke 16:16-17 that Jesus says that the law will not be void. Of course not! Since the laws reflect the very person and character of God, who will never pass away, we may understand that the law will never be seen us unwarranted, or mistaken. No, it has just become fulfilled in the life and person of Jesus Christ. In him we see the perfection of the law completely utterly.
Wow, off topic, much? I in no way agree with you here, but I'd just like to point something out. It may very well be that some people or culture came along and used a fish for a pagan symbol. I suppose it's just like the gay people now using the symbol of the rainbow. It think it silly, because if we are Christian, then we know that God made the fish, and the rainbow. Which suggests to me that he has 1: ownership of the 'image', and 2: clearly he was 'using' said image first. It's only misguided people who worry about such things. All belongs to God, and as long and Christians use what God has created to glorify Him, it's not an issue.
Okay. Firstly, yes, many passages in the OT helped determine who Jesus was/is. But those passages were prophetic ones, and not speaking of the laws. So there's a big difference there right away. We know that the old covenant observances pointed to a future reality that was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ:
Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his unspiritual mind. He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God. If you died with the Messiah to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: “Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch”? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence(Col 2:16-23)
Paul is also blindingly clear about a Christian's current state of 'righteousness'...it's ALL in Christ:
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. (Romans 6:14 ESV)
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! (Romans 6:15 ESV)
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:4-6 ESV)
Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Corinthians 3:5-6 ESV)
'All the laws given by Christ'?...I know Jesus said this:
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40 ESV)
Jesus gives us many things to pursue by grace, and teaches us to live in a manner worthy of the gift we've been given. But never once does he tell us we need to observe the mosaic law. We need not sacrifice ever again...He was the perfect sacrifice. We need to worry of our righteousness again...his perfect righteousness has been placed upon us. We need not worry of what we eat or how we dress or what days we observe, because...
He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:20)
Our salvation is entirely dependant on Jesus, and that's exactly what the OT prophets were talking about. It's also exactly what the Mosaic covenant was leading to.
Okay...the mosaic laws had a specific purpose...which was fulfilled and completed in Christ when he came. The huge problem with most people is that they think that this great, cosmic, salvation story, somehow features them. No, there is no doubt we benefit from it, but God is the star. The commandments where given to show us how glorious God is, how fallen we are, and how badly we need him. They point to Christ coming and fulfilling something we never could, freeing us from the law and awakening us into his grace. This act not only redeems us, it glorifies him!
In love He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved (Eph 1:5-6)
It's not about what boxes I must tick, what hoops I need to jump through to receive God's favour, it's about how through God himself, I receive that favour free. It's about how I now spend my life praising and glorifying him for what's he done.
Ah, I feel I must point again to the verse up top...you know, Col 2, where is says specifically, that no one is to judge in regards to the Sabbath? You might say that a 'sabbath day' is different, but I say semantics, and that you're reaching, and that in doing so, you're completely ignoring the whole intent of the passage. We also see this sentiment elsewhere:
You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. (Galatians 4:10-11 ESV)
'Day and months and seasons and years' were all part of the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic covenant. To require Christians to follow such OT laws is to forfeit the gospel of justification by faith alone, in Christ alone. This also clearly implies that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant.
As far as God not changing his laws...unless he foretells it a looong time...the entire OT is filled with the predictions of Christ, and what he would come to do. 'The lamb of God'...pretty specific reference to the sacrifice he'd make. The exodus? Whoever was 'marked with the blood of the lamb' would be passed over for death. This was before the Mosaic commandments, before the 'Sabbath'. Jesus was always going to come and fulfil and complete his law....and I must point out that fulfilling the law is very different from 'voiding' it. We see in Luke 16:16-17 that Jesus says that the law will not be void. Of course not! Since the laws reflect the very person and character of God, who will never pass away, we may understand that the law will never be seen us unwarranted, or mistaken. No, it has just become fulfilled in the life and person of Jesus Christ. In him we see the perfection of the law completely utterly.
Wow, off topic, much? I in no way agree with you here, but I'd just like to point something out. It may very well be that some people or culture came along and used a fish for a pagan symbol. I suppose it's just like the gay people now using the symbol of the rainbow. It think it silly, because if we are Christian, then we know that God made the fish, and the rainbow. Which suggests to me that he has 1: ownership of the 'image', and 2: clearly he was 'using' said image first. It's only misguided people who worry about such things. All belongs to God, and as long and Christians use what God has created to glorify Him, it's not an issue.
Of whom i am Chief ? what is it you are saying ? that he is Chief of the apostles.
No he is saying he is a Chief sinner.
Jesus sent them all to us. and Jesus is who he is, our Lord and Saviour ! Paul is just an apostle as he can never surpass Christ.
You are into some silly racist hog wash putting Jews into another box. as Christ came for all. as he is the only way end of story.
So you ignore the scriptures that tell us Paul was sent """"BY JESUS"""" to the Gentiles and you ignore the scriptures (the word of God) when it says that the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles so that you can cling to the law.
Galatians 2:9
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NKJV
I don't think we have much to discuss since you ignore the scriptures in order to cling to your false ideas that deny the word of God.
So you are saying that Jesus did not come for the Jews and is not saviour to all the people in this world.
I say that all must come to Jesus as race has noting to do with it.
The Jews had the Law but now they should come under Grace, as Grace is above the Law.
The fact is the Law was never dismissed at all. as Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law and that my friend is Jesus saying the fact.
A new legalism entails making any system based on the reading of the bible. The only difference between claiming to be disciples of Moses (as the Pharisees) and claiming to be disciples of Jesus ....is semantics...unless one is actually walking in the power of Christ. Otherwise we are building the same way the Pharisees did...just using a different nomenclature to justify ourselves while still walking as carnal men.
Rach,
Did you actually read Matt 22:36-40? This scripture encompases the ten Commandments.
Matt 22:40
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
KJV
According to this if you loose the laws you lose the prophets also. The old testament told of Christ and without it no one would have known who He was. The problem with the new testament is the first book to be written was 14 years after Christ died, so the only scripture to be taught to the new deciples was the old testament, that had the laws of God in it. Since Paul taught in the Synagogue if he had not taught the laws of God he would have not been allowed to bring in Gentiles into the Synagogue. Yes, he did not teach the oral traditions of the Jews, but since his most recent teacher was Christ who taught the laws of His Father, which He himself gave to us from the beginning of time, he most cretantly taught them.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
Did you actually read Matt 22:36-40? This scripture encompases the ten Commandments.
Matt 22:40
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
KJV
According to this if you loose the laws you lose the prophets also. The old testament told of Christ and without it no one would have known who He was. The problem with the new testament is the first book to be written was 14 years after Christ died, so the only scripture to be taught to the new deciples was the old testament, that had the laws of God in it. Since Paul taught in the Synagogue if he had not taught the laws of God he would have not been allowed to bring in Gentiles into the Synagogue. Yes, he did not teach the oral traditions of the Jews, but since his most recent teacher was Christ who taught the laws of His Father, which He himself gave to us from the beginning of time, he most cretantly taught them.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
St Paul Tell's Christians to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
St Paul says, God will repay everyone according to his works.
Did not the Law come about from being saved from slavery ?
St Paul says, God will repay everyone according to his works.
Did not the Law come about from being saved from slavery ?
Ah, I'd just like to point out that even with the OT prophecies, no one did know who he was! Peter had an inkling, but it wasn't until his resurrection and Pentecost that the disciples fully understood what the OT had been talking about.
Also, we have exactly what Paul taught people. He didn't get kicked out of temples everywhere...stoned and arrested by the Jews by parroting the OT. He used, as he always did, the OT to point out how Christ fulfilled every single prophecy and every single one of the laws. They did not like that. They wanted to believe that they could earn their own righteousness themselves through the law.
Let me perhaps try and simplify this down. Do you believe that circumcision is still necessary??
I thought this thread was about the idea of 'faith without works is dead' from the Book of James?
The example James gave isn't about the law vs. grace.
It's about working for Christ, DOING, not just TALKING ABOUT IT!
Know someone that is in need, clothing let's say? What good is it if all we do is say to that person "be blessed"? That was James' point.
The devil's strategy is to make us INEFFECTIVE by LACK OF WORKS.
So what have YOU done for Christ Jesus today???
The example James gave isn't about the law vs. grace.
It's about working for Christ, DOING, not just TALKING ABOUT IT!
Know someone that is in need, clothing let's say? What good is it if all we do is say to that person "be blessed"? That was James' point.
The devil's strategy is to make us INEFFECTIVE by LACK OF WORKS.
So what have YOU done for Christ Jesus today???
Guilt is not the ideal motivator.....just saying
The devil has another strategy. He wants us to lose our confidence by believing his lies that our performance is connected with salvation. And with a compromised level of assurance, people are rendered less effective, as they fail to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace to help in time of need. It is false doctrine and deception that renders one ineffective or rather, less effective (very few, if any, are completely ineffective in Christ).
We are responders. We love Him because He first loved us. It is our perception of His love towards us that the enemy would interfere with.
It isn't about what man does for God (Christ). It is all about what Christ did for man. But you would rather have faith in what you do instead of what God has already done.
Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live." That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: ". . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." That is works.
In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: ". . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: ". . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
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