The "Millenium Rule" SCRIPTURES ONLY thread

[Phoneman777]

If a resurrection was intended, a Greek word meaning that would have been used. Bring is not a resurrection but it can happen to the resurrected once they have been resurrected which is exactly the case where the resurrected dead will be brought with Christ to meet those raptured to the clouds where they all meet!

I can't force you to read G71 and admit that "bring (forth)" is included by Strong as one of its meanings, but I can kindly withdraw from pointless discussions with people who find that facts are unkind to their beliefs.

So, until you read G71 and acknowledge this, good day, sir ;)

 

[Phoneman777]

It's really condescending for you to assume I "haven't heard of it until now" as I have read your posts where you post it ad-nauseam. Literally EVERYONE knows of this if they have read any of your posts.

I hope many more read of them, too ;)

This verse is not an example of a Hebrew Chiasm (Chiasmus),
not in Hebrew, Greek or English.

"Hebrew" refers to the mindset, not the language. To argue that Hebrew men who grew up immersed in Hebrew Chiastic Old Testament writings would not employ the same writing style in Greek is extremely naive, especially since we see so many examples in the NT.

Good gravy, man, have you never read the book of Revelation? One giant chiasm containing many smaller ones.

 

[ewq1938]

;)

"Hebrew" refers to the mindset, not the language.

Neither actually. It's a literary device, not a "mindset".

 

[ewq1938]

I can't force you to read G71 and admit that "bring (forth)" is included by Strong as one of its meanings, ;)

It doesn't mean a resurrection which is why it is never used concerning one.

 

[Phoneman777]

Can you explain why the word (G71 AGO) is never used in reference to a resurrection in the scriptures if that is what it means? Bring in every verse it is found is what it means, to bring. Never is it a resurrection.

Can you provide a Biblical reason for excluding "bring (forth)" as a candidate meaning for G71, especially when doing so destroys Hebrew Paul's chiasm?

For if we believe Jesus died (death)
and rose again (resurrection)
them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
will God bring with Him. (resurrection)

The only reason you deny the chiasm it because it so completely dismantles your argument.

 

[Phoneman777]

Neither actually. It's a literary device, not a "mindset".

Sigh..doens't mindset dictate what device to use? Surely, men who grew up immersed in such a literary device would employ it when writing, just as an American who learned to write in Hebrew would tell a story and use Western literary device to put the climax at the end of the story, instead of the middle as is the case with of the book of Revelation.

 

[Phoneman777]

It doesn't mean a resurrection which is why it is never used concerning one.

Making "bring" refer to "celestial road trip of disembodied saints from heaven to Earth" destroys Hebrew Paul's chiasm. Making it refer to "bring forth" from death in a resurrection destroys nothing, but actually:

1) preserves the chiasm
2) helps cement Paul's theme of the passage, which is the saints will rise from the grave to meet Jesus
3) has as comfort for bereaved saints the resurrection promise, not that the saints are in heaven

How stupid of Paul to not tell us to comfort one another with talk of dead saints singing and dancing on the streets of gold, right? For some silly reason, he told us to comfort them with the promise that God will bring their loved ones forth from the grave as He brought Jesus forth, Lazarus forth, all 12 in Scripture who were brought forth...right?

I rather like Paul's use of G71 in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV in reference to "resurrection".

 

[Phoneman777]

ICYMI, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV is written as a Hebrew chiasm (meaning Hebrew Paul employed the same OT Hebrew writing style he'd been immersed in since he was knee high to a Nazarite):

A. For if we believe Jesus died (death)
B. and rose again (resurrection)
A. them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring with Him. (resurrection)

"Bring with Him" as in "bring forth from the grave in the same manner Jesus was" - not "bring dead saints already in heaven back to Earth in a celestial road trip" which destroys the chiasm and makes "bring" erroneously refer to "geolocation" instead "re-animation".

 

[ewq1938]

Making "bring" refer to "celestial road trip of disembodied saints from heaven to Earth" destroys Hebrew Paul's chiasm.

There is no chiasm there. Bring means just what it says, bring. You are changing it to form this imaginary chiasm.

Maybe this alteration makes better sense:

A. For if we believe Jesus died (death)
B. and BRING again (bringeresurrection)
A. them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God BRING with Him. (bringeresurrection)

 

[Phoneman777]

There is no chiasm there. Bring means just what it says, bring. You are changing it to form this imaginary chiasm.

Maybe this alteration makes better sense:

A. For if we believe Jesus died (death)
B. and BRING again (bringeresurrection)
A. them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God BRING with Him. (bringeresurrection)

Look, no one is buying your baseless argument. This classic "A-B-A-B" chiastic structure where "A" rhymes with "A" and "B" rhymes with "B" is a textbook example that any Hebrew would immediately recognize, is easily seen by any objective Bible student, and is destroyed by your false interpretation that it refers to "dead saints in heaven taking a celestial road trip to Earth":

A. For if we believe Jesus DIED (DEATH)
B. and ROSE again (RESURRECTION)
A. so them also which SLEEP in Jesus (DEATH)
B. will God BRING (FORTH FROM DEATH) with Him. (RESURRECTION)

SEE HOW MY BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION PRESERVES THE CHIASM, WHILE YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION DESTROYS IT?

There's not a single mention by Paul of any "celestial road trip" in this entire chapter --- but there's plenty of talk about dead saints sleeping in graves from which God will bring them forth, right? The only mention by Paul of any "trip" in this chapter is that the saints are to "walk honestly toward men" - certainly not some ridiculous "celestial road trip". So, you need to stop denying the existence of what any Hebrew would immediately recognize: the chiasm in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV.

 

[ewq1938]

Look, no one is buying your baseless argument.

I think you have that backwards.

A. For if we believe Jesus DIED (DEATH)
B. and ROSE again (RESURRECTION)
A. so them also which SLEEP in Jesus (DEATH)
B. will God BRING (FORTH FROM DEATH) with Him. (RESURRECTION)

Teh word BRING in both languages does not have the meaning of a resurrection. You have to add your own beliefs into it which is the exact definition of eisegesis. "bring with him" is what it says, he will bring people with him. Yes, they will experience a resurrect6ion before they go with him but that doesn't change that the former dead are brought from heaven.

SEE HOW MY BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION PRESERVES THE CHIASM, WHILE YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION DESTROYS IT?

There's not a single mention by Paul of any "celestial road trip" in this entire chapter --- but there's plenty of talk about dead saints sleeping in graves from which God will bring them forth, right? The only mention by Paul of any "trip" in this chapter is that the saints are to "walk honestly toward men" - certainly not some ridiculous "celestial road trip". So, you need to stop denying the existence of what any Hebrew would immediately recognize: the chiasm in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV.

They wouldn't recognize that because it doesn't exist there and they wouldn't accept the doctrine of "soul sleep" either.

 

[Phoneman777]

Teh word BRING in both languages does not have the meaning of a resurrection.

When I say "means" I'm not talking about "defined as" - I'm talking about "refers to".
"Bring" refers to "resurrection" in the chiasm.

You have to add your own beliefs into it which is the exact definition of eisegesis.

I bring solid exegesis.
Yours is textbook eisegesis, seeing that you've allowed "Thou shalt not surely die" to cloud your thinking.

I add nothing - merely reveal the chiasm that's already there.
You're trying to take away the chiasm from Scripture.

"bring with him" is what it says, he will bring people with him. Yes, they will experience a resurrect6ion before they go with him but that doesn't change that the former dead are brought from heaven.

Good, we agree that "bring with Him" does not refer to "bring dead saints back to earth from heaven" - that's my entire point, seeing that most Christians argue this verse as support for that.

But, since you believe that disembodied saints are in heaven awaiting the celestial road trip to Earth so they can walk the runway in their new resurrection "clothes" in the great "celestial fashion show" -- what Biblical evidence to you have that saints are in heaven?

They wouldn't recognize that because it doesn't exist there and they wouldn't accept the doctrine of "soul sleep" either.

The enemy blinds all kinds.

 

[ewq1938]

When I say "means" I'm not talking about "defined as" - I'm talking about "refers to".
"Bring" refers to "resurrection" in the chiasm.

The bringing is an event after the resurrection just like the rapture is an event after the change of bodies from mortal to immortal. Bring is not a reference to the resurrection as you claim.

I bring solid exegesis.

Solid eisegesis.

Yours is textbook eisegesis, seeing that you've allowed "Thou shalt not surely die" to cloud your thinking.

Red herring fallacy, stay on topic.

I add nothing - merely reveal the chiasm that's already there.
You're trying to take away the chiasm from Scripture.

No, there isn't a chiasm. Bring is not a resurrection so it is you adding something to scripture. I assume your denomination has an issue with Christ bringing the resurrected former dead with him from heaven?

Good, we agree that "bring with Him" does not refer to "bring dead saints back to earth from heaven"

It means exactly that except they are the former dead.

- that's my entire point, seeing that most Christians argue this verse as support for that.

But, since you believe that disembodied saints are in heaven awaiting the celestial road trip to Earth so they can walk the runway in their new resurrection "clothes" in the great "celestial fashion show" -- what Biblical evidence to you have that saints are in heaven?

This is another common argumentative fallacy you use...mockery. Christ bring the resurrected dead from heaven is not a "road trip" nor is the resurrection new clothes for a fashion show. The heavy use of mockery shows you have nothing to stand on so you use mockery which is related to insults, just not as direct but still used in an insulting way. If your position here was solid, there would be no need for these petty fallacies.

 

[Phoneman777]

The bringing is an event after the resurrection just like the rapture is an event after the change of bodies from mortal to immortal. Bring is not a reference to the resurrection as you claim.

Good, we agree that "bring with Him" doesn't refer to 'bring saints from heaven to earth".

Solid eisegesis.

Sound, solid exegesis, friend.

Red herring fallacy, stay on topic.

I only distract from the truth, and I've remained on topic, which is that dead saints are sleeping down here, not dancing and singing up there.

No, there isn't a chiasm. Bring is not a resurrection so it is you adding something to scripture.

Look, you can take or leave the chiasm as long as you don't claim "bring with Him" refers to "bring dead saints from heaven to Earth".

I assume your denomination has an issue with Christ bringing the resurrected former dead with him from heaven?

Since dead saints are asleep down here, not singing and dancing up there, that' not possible.

It means exactly that except they are the former dead.

As long as you don't claim "bring with Him" refers to "bring dead saints from heaven to Earth", else I'll have to go back to schooling you on the chiasm which is destroyed by such a pretextual interpretation.

This is another common argumentative fallacy you use...mockery.

People deserve respect, and I've been extremely respectful. Beliefs, however, must stand the test of Biblical scrutiny or be cast aside.

Christ bring the resurrected dead from heaven is not a "road trip" nor is the resurrection new clothes for a fashion show. The heavy use of mockery shows you have nothing to stand on so you use mockery which is related to insults, just not as direct but still used in an insulting way. If your position here was solid, there would be no need for these petty fallacies.

My descriptions of are intended to summarize, not mock them - so it's easier to write "celestial fashion show" than to write "at the resurrection where disembodied saints will return to earth at the time when their resurrection bodies come out the grave and they put them on and once again have bodies with which to do the exact same thing they'd been doing in heaven - walking, singing, dancing, praising Jesus, etc."

"Celestial road trip" is much quicker than writing "Jesus will bring with Him all the disembodied saints in heaven back to Earth when He comes in glory at the Second Coming".

So, again, not mocking, summarizing.

 

[ewq1938]

Good, we agree that "bring with Him" doesn't refer to 'bring saints from heaven to earth".

Good, you admit BRING is not a resurrection. Such an easy discussion!

 

[Phoneman777]

Good, you admit BRING is not a resurrection. Such an easy discussion!

Nah, the Chiasm absolutely demands "bring with Him" refers to "bring forth from the tomb as Christ was" aka "the resurrection", the theme of the last half of the chapter...certainly not "celestial road trip".

The only "trip" Paul even remotely refers to in the chapter is our "walk honestly toward men" while we're yet alive on Earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Nah, the Chiasm absolutely demands "bring with Him" refers to "bring forth from the tomb as Christ was" aka "the resurrection", the theme of the last half of the chapter...certainly not "celestial road trip".

The only "trip" Paul even remotely refers to in the chapter is our "walk honestly toward men" while we're yet alive on Earth.

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee

1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[keithr]

Nah, the Chiasm absolutely demands "bring with Him" refers to "bring forth from the tomb as Christ was" aka "the resurrection", the theme of the last half of the chapter...certainly not "celestial road trip".

Refer back to my post #161.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV):

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

Paul is reassuring those that were grieving for their fellow Christians that had died. Remember that this was the early years of the Church and most Christians were expecting that Jesus would return imminently, which Paul later corrects - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (WEB):

(1) Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you​

(2) not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come.​

(3) Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,​

(4) he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.​

(5) Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?​

(Note verse 1, where the coming of Jesus and our gathering together with him are regarded as two different events, both of which are still to come in the future.)

A few Chritians will have died, and some Christians were grieving for them, thinking that they would therefore miss out on Jesus' return to reign in glory. In verse 14 Paul is saying that those Chiristians that have died will also (as well as those that are still alive when Jesus comes to gather his Church) be with Jesus when he returns for his second advent on the earth. He is not saying that the dead Christians will be brought with Jesus when Jesus comes for his bride - Jesus doesn't bring his betrothed with him when he comes to surprise his betrothed and take them to the wedding! Therefore, the implication is that the dead in Christ will be resurrected at some point before Jesus' coming back to earth, just as those alive will be changed (death and resurrection in the twinkling of an eye) and caught up to be with Jesus before Jesus comes to reign on the earth - for we will be reigning with him (Revelation 20:6, 2 Timothy 2:12).

Paul then descibes the events of Jesus' return for his Church, when Jesus descends from heaven to the sky (the air above the earth - he doesn't descend to the earth), which is then when the dead in Christ are resurrected and when the alive in Christ are changed. This is again to reassure the grieving saints that those saints that had died will not miss out - we will all be gathered to Jesus at the same time, and we will all return with Jesus when he (later) comes to reign on the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (WEB):

(9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

(10) who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.​

 

[ElieG12]

The annointed brothers of Jesus started being resurrected at the beginning of "the presence" of Jesus in his heavenly throne (1), those dying after it continue being raised (2), and the last ones still alive will be transform the last moment (3).



1. Those of them who were long dead were resurrected shortly after that event happened in the heavens at the beginning of the end time, when his presence started (after 1914 according to Biblical Chronology).

1 Thess. 4:16 (...) those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
1 Cor. 15:23 (...) those who belong to the Christ during his presence.


2. The rest of dying anointed will die and resurrect at the same moment of their death:

Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”


3. The ones still living at the moment of Jesus coming to judge this system of things, will be gathered together with all of them in one single event:

1 Thess. 4:17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them. (...)
1 Cor. 15:51 (...) we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. (...) we will be changed.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Paul then descibes the events of Jesus' return for his Church, when Jesus descends from heaven to the sky (the air above the earth - he doesn't descend to the earth), which is then when the dead in Christ are resurrected and when the alive in Christ are changed.

The ones still living at the moment of Jesus coming to judge this system of things, will be gathered together with all of them in one single event:

Then, of course, there is another ( Heavenly ) view, for us, The Body Of Christ:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.