Question RE Unconditional Election

[marks]

I have a question for those who believe the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Is it possible in your way of thinking that someone could be elected for salvation, regenerated, brought to faith and obedience, and yet be mistaken on doctrine?

And is it possible that the error in doctrine could be the manner in which they were saved, to wit, that they might not understand yet that this was not based on their 'choosing', or belief, and instead of being based on God's sole election?

That is, can someone not hold the view of Unconditional Election, and yet still be regenerated?

Much love!
mark

 

[Enoch111]

Is it possible in your way of thinking that someone could be elected for salvation, regenerated, brought to faith and obedience, and yet be mistaken on doctrine?

While this is addressed to those who believe in Unconditional Election, I will answer in the affirmative. Calvinists are born again Christians but preach a false gospel (mistaken in doctrine). Many Reformed Christians also hold to false Covenant Theology, Preterism, and Amillinnialism.

 

[marks]

While this is addressed to those who believe in Unconditional Election, I will answer in the affirmative. Calvinists are born again Christians but preach a false gospel (mistaken in doctrine). Many Reformed Christians also hold to false Covenant Theology, Preterism, and Amillinnialism.

I am hoping for responses from those who hold this view.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No takers?

 

[Arthur81]

No takers?

I hesitate to use theological labels and attempt to stay strictly in a more Biblical theology. I am forced by the very clear and direct statements in the New Testament to hold to a sovereign election of God that is unmerited by those chosen. My scripture reasons are as follows -

"who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," (2Tim 1:9 NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB) * I find the arguments for "beginning" more persuasive then the NRSV "firstfruits"

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)
* It does NOT read: those foreseen to believe were destined to eternal life!

"For those whom he foreknew(proginosko) he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30 NRSV) * It reads "who" he foreknew, not "what" he foreknew. Those rejected by Christ he never knew, Matt. 7:23. This Greek 'proginosko' in 1 Pet. 1:20 is translated "destined" by the RSV, NRSV & "predestined" by the REB.

"Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) she was told, 'The elder shall serve the younger' ... So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses." (Rom 9:11-12 & 18 NRSV) * v24 of this discussion in Romans 9 shows this includes Gentiles as well as Jews and it is applied to the New Covenant.

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Rom 11:5-6 NRSV)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV) *This is exact wording is retained in the ESV version of the RSV. The Good News Bible translates it -

"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8 GNB92)

"No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." (John 6:44 NRSV)

"...just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:4 NRSV)

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:30-31 REB)

"since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (John 17:2 NRSV)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

"And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut short those days." (Mark 13:20 NRSV)

I find myself in agreement with the Confessions and Catechisms coming out of the Protestant Reformation.

 

[Rockerduck]

I was Chosen by God, I didn't choose Him. I started my journey after this to learn more about God. He gave me the Holy Spirit and I've been rejoicing ever since.

 

[PinSeeker]

I hesitate to use theological labels and attempt to stay strictly in a more Biblical theology. I am forced by the very clear and direct statements in the New Testament to hold to a sovereign election of God that is unmerited by those chosen. My scripture reasons are as follows -

"who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," (2Tim 1:9 NRSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB) * I find the arguments for "beginning" more persuasive then the NRSV "firstfruits"

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)
* It does NOT read: those foreseen to believe were destined to eternal life!

"For those whom he foreknew(proginosko) he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30 NRSV) * It reads "who" he foreknew, not "what" he foreknew. Those rejected by Christ he never knew, Matt. 7:23. This Greek 'proginosko' in 1 Pet. 1:20 is translated "destined" by the RSV, NRSV & "predestined" by the REB.

"Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) she was told, 'The elder shall serve the younger' ... So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses." (Rom 9:11-12 & 18 NRSV) * v24 of this discussion in Romans 9 shows this includes Gentiles as well as Jews and it is applied to the New Covenant.

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Rom 11:5-6 NRSV)

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV) *This is exact wording is retained in the ESV version of the RSV. The Good News Bible translates it -

"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8 GNB92)

"No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." (John 6:44 NRSV)

"...just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:4 NRSV)

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:30-31 REB)

"since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (John 17:2 NRSV)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

"And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut short those days." (Mark 13:20 NRSV)

I find myself in agreement with the Confessions and Catechisms coming out of the Protestant Reformation.

Excellent. Yes, anyone can argue with a so-called Calvinist, or even John Calvin himself, but what cannot be argued against with anything resembling success is the Word of God, which, as Isaiah and Peter said, though the grass wither and the flower fade, endures forever.

I was Chosen by God, I didn't choose Him. I started my journey after this to learn more about God. He gave me the Holy Spirit and I've been rejoicing ever since.

Also excellent, although I would quibble with one thing: You did choose Him, but only after He chose you, and then at your appointed time (referring specifically to Acts 13:48, which Arthur quoted above). Nowhere in the Bible do we see anything about not making choices; the distinction that is made regarding our salvation is that our choice depends on God's mercy and compassion (Romans 9 is especially clear here). Paul is especially clear on this also in Philippians 2:13, that we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Grace and peace to all!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I remain mindful of the serious error of going beyond what the scriptures clearly state, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.

Amen, and, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

 

[rwb]

I have a question for those who believe the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Is it possible in your way of thinking that someone could be elected for salvation, regenerated, brought to faith and obedience, and yet be mistaken on doctrine?

And is it possible that the error in doctrine could be the manner in which they were saved, to wit, that they might not understand yet that this was not based on their 'choosing', or belief, and instead of being based on God's sole election?

That is, can someone not hold the view of Unconditional Election, and yet still be regenerated?

Much love!
mark

I'll answer with a question for you. How many or who among those first century disciples of Christ had perfect understanding of all doctrine? If those who walked with Christ on the earth did not have perfect understanding for all Biblical doctrine are they not eternally secure in Christ? Good question Mark

 

[Rockerduck]

Excellent. Yes, anyone can argue with a so-called Calvinist, or even John Calvin himself, but what cannot be argued against with anything resembling success is the Word of God, which, as Isaiah and Peter said, though the grass wither and the flower fade, endures forever.


Also excellent, although I would quibble with one thing: You did choose Him, but only after He chose you, and then at your appointed time (referring specifically to Acts 13:48, which Arthur quoted above). Nowhere in the Bible do we see anything about not making choices; the distinction that is made regarding our salvation is that our choice depends on God's mercy and compassion (Romans 9 is especially clear here). Paul is especially clear on this also in Philippians 2:13, that we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Grace and peace to all!

God chose me, not like the apostle Paul, but similarly,, He chose me, and and saved me. The hand of God touched me. I received the Holy Spirit a little later in prayer. Then 20 yrs later, an anointing of the Holy Spirit came over me, and the gift of Knowledge came to me. Along with visions, dreams, and Healings. The Higher Life movement of the 19th century explains this:


The Keswick movement, also called the Higher Life movement, is a theological movement that originated in England in the early 19th century. It was heavily influenced by the teachings of John Wesley, John William Fletcher, and Adam Clarke. Since 1875 promoters have organized the annual Keswick Convention. Various Christian leaders have been involved in the Keswick Convention through the years, including missionaries Hudson Taylor and Amy Carmichael, devotional writer Oswald Chambers, and evangelist Billy Graham.

Essentially, Keswick theology and Higher life movement teaches that the Christian life consists of two primary crises (or major turning points): justification and sanctification, both of which happen at different times in the life of the believer. After salvation one must have another encounter with the Spirit; otherwise, he or she will not progress into holiness or the “deeper” things of God. This second encounter with the Spirit, in Keswick terminology, is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” or “the second touch.” This emphasis on a second, post-salvation experience corresponds with the Pentecostal idea of the “baptism” of the Spirit.

Although it is true that both justification (i.e., getting saved) and sanctification (i.e., becoming more like Christ) are vital aspects of the Christian life, overemphasizing the distinction between them tends to produce two different “classes” of Christian—those who are not being sanctified and those who are being sanctified. Moreover, according to Keswick theology, we can decide which camp we belong in, and the initiation of sanctification is something that depends on us after we are saved.

 

[Rockerduck]

I'll answer with a question for you. How many or who among those first century disciples of Christ had perfect understanding of all doctrine? If those who walked with Christ on the earth did not have perfect understanding for all Biblical doctrine are they not eternally secure in Christ? Good question Mark

The early Christians had the gift of Knowledge and understanding that many or most do not have today. They were very secure in salvation, brave to the death and very mission oriented. This is absent from the majority of believers today.

 

[PinSeeker]

God chose me, not like the apostle Paul, but similarly,, He chose me, and and saved me.

Sure.

I received the Holy Spirit a little later in prayer.

Well, maybe in the sense that you acknowledged His presence in you, or even that you were aware of it. But, as Jesus told Nicodemus, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

...Keswick theology and Higher life movement teaches that the Christian life consists of two primary crises (or major turning points): justification and sanctification, both of which happen at different times in the life of the believer. After salvation one must have another encounter with the Spirit; otherwise, he or she will not progress into holiness or the “deeper” things of God. This second encounter with the Spirit, in Keswick terminology, is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” or “the second touch.” This emphasis on a second, post-salvation experience corresponds with the Pentecostal idea of the “baptism” of the Spirit.

Although it is true that both justification (i.e., getting saved) and sanctification (i.e., becoming more like Christ) are vital aspects of the Christian life, overemphasizing the distinction between them tends to produce two different “classes” of Christian—those who are not being sanctified and those who are being sanctified. Moreover, according to Keswick theology, we can decide which camp we belong in, and the initiation of sanctification is something that depends on us after we are saved.

Hmmm... The correct way to understand justification and sanctification, Rockerduck, is as follows:

At our appointed time of salvation, God justifies us even in our sin. Justification is forensic, which means that it is a legal pronouncement; we are declared just in God's courtroom because Jesus lived an obedient life and paid the penalty for our sins. It is a one-time, immediate imputation of Christ's righteousness upon us.

Sanctification inevitably follows justification, and is the life-long process by which we are conformed to Christ by the work of God by His Holy Spirit in us. Our wills are part of that; our will is our free will, for sure, but it too, over time, is conformed to Christ's will, which is the will of the Father. That is not dependent on our decision; indeed, as Paul says in various places in his letters but never more clearly than in Philippians, this work of God, once begun, will be brought to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). Ultimately, the glory is to be ascribed to God alone, and we glory in Him.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rockerduck]

I understand Justification, sanctification, and glorification. I further explanation needed.

 

[PinSeeker]

The early Christians had the gift of Knowledge and understanding that many or most do not have today. They were very secure in salvation, brave to the death and very mission oriented. This is absent from the majority of believers today.

Well, you're talking about two different things here, Rockerduck... two different gifts of the Holy Spirit.

• The spiritual gift of knowledge, is one gift, which some have to a greater degree than others, for sure, and this is according to God's will, and is to be used for the common good (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12).
• The other is the spiritual gift of faith, which, again, we all have, but again, some to a greater degree than others, and again, this is according to God's will, and is to be used for the common good (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12). Faith, which, as Hebrews 11:1 says, is the assurance of the Father and conviction by the Holy Spirit of things hoped for and unseen. This assurance is something that even those with the gift of knowledge can struggle with.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I understand Justification, sanctification, and glorification. I further explanation needed.

Okay, fine; sorry to offend if I did. But if you are into Keswick Theology, it has it's... shortcomings. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have a question for those who believe the doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Is it possible in your way of thinking that someone could be elected for salvation, regenerated, brought to faith and obedience, and yet be mistaken on doctrine?

And is it possible that the error in doctrine could be the manner in which they were saved, to wit, that they might not understand yet that this was not based on their 'choosing', or belief, and instead of being based on God's sole election?

That is, can someone not hold the view of Unconditional Election, and yet still be regenerated?

Much love!
mark

Answer- Abssolutely! We are drawn to God as we are! We are not theologians and biblical scholars. We learn and grow. and also the vast majority shed bad doctrine and adopt good doctrine as they study the Scriptures more.