The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[covenantee]

Yep.

But in God chosing them as a nation he never promised them salvation.

so your point is mute

He promised salvation to those who were faithful and obedient to Him, as He does today.

The point is not "moot".

You're welcome.

 

[covenantee]

Why did God call them his people?

Did He call them His people after He slew them?

 

[covenantee]

And make God a god who keeps his promises. and not a God who does not keep his promises.

Whom to believe?

1. Paul, who declares under Holy Spirit inspiration, that the New Covenant is a better Covenant established upon better Promises.
2. You, who declare under unholy spirit inspiration, that it is not.

Who needs a hint?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yours is OT Jews and Israel.

Nope. they are not my people. they are Gods

Mine is NT Christ and Calvary.

Those are mind too, of which I am a part of them

Yours is transcended by mine.

The OT promises of God are now the NT promises in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Mine is eternal. But so it there's

I am going to make a guess that you do not believe in eternal security do you

Gods promises are based on self. Not God and his word. do you believe this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

They are enemies concerning the gospel as individuals.

Wrong

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

If (when) Israel repents. and comes to christ as a nation. God will remember his promise to them

There is nothing you can say to stop that fact

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did He call them His people after He slew them?

You tell me:

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as itlies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.

44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.

45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ”

I think God is quite clear. even when they are scattered in their enemies lands. as they have been since AD 70. according to this chapter. God will NOT cast them away or abhor them, he will NOT BREAK HIS COVENANT WITH THEM

nothing you can say will change this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He promised salvation to those who were faithful and obedient to Him, as He does today.

The point is not "moot".

You're welcome.

He did not promise them SALVATION.

He promised them LAND

Your point is meaningless. because you do not understand what God promised them

Until you do. You have nothing

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Whom to believe?

1. Paul, who declares under Holy Spirit inspiration, that the New Covenant is a better Covenant established upon better Promises.
2. You, who declare under unholy spirit inspiration, that it is not.

Who needs a hint?

The new covenant is better than the old (mosaic)

it does not replace the eternal (land)

I don;t need a hint, But you need to read and study

 

[PinSeeker]

I think we have gone on enough

Agreed.

I can;t agree with you about the abrahamic covenant

Well, you won't. Or any the others that it is very much like in a general way. Or Who they all come into full focus in, I guess. Too bad, but okay.

If it is a two sided covenant, It would not be an eternal covenant,

All covenants, regardless whether they are eternal or not, are two sided, in that there are obligations agreed to and consequences for not meeting those obligations agreed to, both ways. This is what a covenant is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed.


Well, you won't. Or any the others that it is very much like in a general way. Or Who they all come into full focus in, I guess. Too bad, but okay.


All covenants, regardless whether they are eternal or not, are two sided, in that there are obligations agreed to and consequences for not meeting those obligations agreed to, both ways. This is what a covenant is.

Grace and peace to you.

I think it has been well established the bolded comments are not true. That is just your interpretation of a covenant. "I will covenants" Occure all the time, in fact. the covenant Jesus made between me and the father is a one way covenant. Jesus said I will. nothing I can do will ever stop jesus from finishing what he started in me, Thats what paul confirmed, that he who began a good work will (not might) complete that work.

If salvation is a dual covenant, No one will make it to heaven, because all have (are) sinned (sinning) and fall short.

and the basis for why we can not agree..

 

[PinSeeker]

Why did God call them his people? Why did Paul call them his people. Why did paul say they are hated for the gospel but beloeved because of the election. And why did paul say the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Paul did say (yet again) that not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and he even used Jacob and Esau - twin brothers of Israel himself, to demonstrate this and God's purpose of election. So, irrefutably, not all of Paul's fellow countrymen are among God's people; not all his people are God's people; not all of them are true Jews in the sense of what he said in Romans 2:28-29. So yes, in Romans 9-11, especially Romans 9, he is contrasting who outwardly is of Israel to who the Israel of God really is. Ethnic/physical Israel and God's eternal/spiritual Israel, consisting of His elect, are two different groups of folks... not that they are mutually exclusive, as God's eternal Israel will contain a number of those who were part of earthly, physical Israel. This Venn diagram should suffice:

The inner circle is not to scale; we cannot know the true percentage of the people within the outer circle who are or will ultimately be also in the inner circle.

Grace and peace to all!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul did say (yet again) that not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and he even used Jacob and Esau - twin brothers of Israel himself, to demonstrate this and God's purpose of election. So, irrefutably, not all of Paul's fellow countrymen are among God's people; not all his people are God's people; not all of them are true Jews in the sense of what he said in Romans 2:28-29. So yes, in Romans 9-11, especially Romans 9, he is contrasting who outwardly is of Israel to who the Israel of God really is. Ethnic/physical Israel and God's eternal/spiritual Israel, consisting of His elect, are two different groups of folks... not that they are mutually exclusive, as God's eternal Israel will contain a number of those who were part of earthly, physical Israel. This Venn diagram should suffice:

The inner circle is not to scale; we cannot know the true percentage of the people within the outer circle who are or will ultimately be also in the inner circle.

Grace and peace to all!

God made a covenant with National Israel.

this covenant had nothing to do with anyone's salvation

it had nothing to do with them obeying him

It had nothing to do with whether they believed in God or not

He gave it to Abraham, As their natural father, that gift still belongs to them (lev 26 gives the guidelines on what would happen if they sin)

what you call spiritual Israel. is actually the descendants of Abraham concerning another aspect of his covenant, "in you (literally in your seed) shall all the nations be blessed.

The seed of course, and I think we agree, is Christ

I am part of one of those nations (the united states) that God said would be blessed because of Abraham's seed..

I am not part of the promise given to Abraham concerning the national covenant, It was never given to me or for me. It was given to Abraham and his people as a GRACE gift..

Just like salvation was given to me as a grace gift.

Both are eternal

Both are based on God and his character, and not based on us or our character.

Once concerned eternal life. The other concerned a peace of property.

Both have consequences if we sin (them as sown in Lev 26, me and us, we will be disciplined, we will suufer loss. We will suffer hardship. we will suffer the results of our sin. We may even suffer the sin unti death if we are beyond help, But in neither case will God give up on the promise he made. If he does, he deny's himself. because he made the promise its on him!

 

[rwb]

No it is a different promise

God made a covenant with Abraham.

within that covenant, he made a clause which was just for one people group.



God keeps his promises

His gifts and calling are irrevocable. for this reason. Israel is an enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election. (romans 11)

God said he would prove to the world he is the one true God through that nation he chose and separated unto himself.

he said continuously when he retuns them to their own land and makes them one nation again, not only would THEY know he is the one true God. but the world who witnesses their return will know (ps. 1948 is not the return, Israel is still in sin.

if God does not keep his promise to them, I have no trust he will keep his promise to me..

What promises to ethnic Israel are yet to be fulfilled? Has not God already kept every promise given them? Didn't the promise from God to give them the promised land come with stipulation? That they must remain faithful to the Covenant, obey God's written law, and turn away from all other gods, worship and serve the one true God alone.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Has not God also fulfilled His promise to ethnic Israel when He returned them to the land after seventy years of captivity in other nations? They were permitted to restore the city and walls, and rebuild the Temple, but this possession too came with the condition of faithfulness to God alone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What promises to ethnic Israel are yet to be fulfilled? Has not God already kept every promise given them?

It is an eternal covenant, What did God say.

Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

I am confused as to how people contuse God giving them a land, putting in the land, and they God did his part. the covenant is now done with. When God said ALL generations and forever.

Didn't the promise from God to give them the promised land come with stipulation?

No. When God gave it to Abraham, there was no stipulation

That they must remain faithful to the Covenant, obey God's written law, and turn away from all other gods, worship and serve the one true God alone.

In Lev 26, God said if they did not do this, They would be punished. Just like we are punished. But he also said, even if they suffer the most extreme punishment, God will not forget them or the covenant he made with them.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Has not God also fulfilled His promise to ethnic Israel when He returned them to the land after seventy years of captivity in other nations?

So he is done? And did he really restore them? They were still slaves to the gentile kings who ruled over them.

but even if he did. Does forever not mean forever? If God did it 20 times. it would still be a binding covenant,

They were permitted to restore the city and walls, and rebuild the Temple, but this possession too came with the condition of faithfulness to God alone.

It always did.

But he did nt return them in peace. in fact. Many never returned at all. Israel (the northern kingdom) has never returned till this day. But God says they will Ezek 37) and they will be one in the land again and they will no longer continue in their sins.

Ez 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Please note. even today, this has not happened yet

 

[covenantee]

The new covenant is better than the old (mosaic)

it does not replace the eternal (land)

I don;t need a hint, But you need to read and study

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I don't see any exceptions for the land or anything else. Do you?

You need more than a hint.

 

[covenantee]

He did not promise them SALVATION.

He promised them LAND

Your point is meaningless. because you do not understand what God promised them

Until you do. You have nothing

So He gave them the land (Joshua 21:43), and then sent them all to hell.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I don't see any exceptions for the land or anything else. Do you?

You need more than a hint.

You don;t see anything.

I see you once again will not answer what you believe about eternal security.

Lets forget the promise to Israel. Do you believe God keeps his promise to his born again children> Or can that promise be lost also?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So He gave them the land (Joshua 21:43), and then sent them all to hell.

Many of them will go to hell

But that does negate the fact God gave the nation a plot of land.

Again, He did not promise them salvation.

Your stuck on replacement theology.. Its a lie..

 

[covenantee]

You tell me:

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as itlies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.

44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.

45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ”

I think God is quite clear. even when they are scattered in their enemies lands. as they have been since AD 70. according to this chapter. God will NOT cast them away or abhor them, he will NOT BREAK HIS COVENANT WITH THEM

nothing you can say will change this

So thereafter, He never again punished any unfaithful disobedient Israelites?

Some found out otherwise the hard way.

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So thereafter, He never again punished any unfaithful disobedient Israelites?

where does it say he will not punish them again if they turn?

it says he will not forget them while they are in the land of their enemies still in sin)

Some found out otherwise the hard way.

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

have no clue what this does in our conversation..