God incarnate ?
- Thread starter winc
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Not understanding how God The Christ could be born in the flesh through a virgin as Jesus Christ is still what has unbelieving Jews so perplexed. They have failed to understand His Nature and His Power, and our own nature for that matter, for we are more than just a flesh body.
Then who is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit?
Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven.
(KJV)
Well, here's my three cents (inflation) on the issue.
Was Jesus God before He was conceived to Mary? Yes!
Was Jesus God when He returned to heaven? Yes!
Was Jesus God while on earth? Imo, No!
Did Jesus have to be "divine" to be the Messiah? No! All He had to be was sinless, the perfect sacrifice. The purpose of being conceived by God was so that Christ wouldn't have been born with the basic "sin nature" that all of humanity has been born with since Adam thus qualifying Him, if He didn't fail, to be a truly "perfect", sinless sacrificial Lamb.
Why do I believe this? Two reasons
The first reason is found in Heb. 4:15 - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
Then we have this verse in James 1:13 - "[sup] [/sup]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
When the first scripture says "all points" that had to include the possibility of failure. God cannot fail, but for Christ's sinless life to mean anything the possibility of failure had to be present which means He was totally human. Secondly, if He was God, or a "God-man" then He could never have been tempted with evil in the first place, yet scriptures record how greatly He was tempted after His widerness experience and I'm sure that was not the only time in His earthly life that He was tempted because most of us aren't tempted with the things He was offered by Satan.
The second reason is that most people who "declare" Him, the Son of God usually are referencing His "divine" nature but as Paul told us, we are joint-heirs ( which means in this area we are equal to Christ) with Christ whereby we all can be considered "sons of God". However, can we really say, "we are gods? I'm certainly not going to make that assumption, but Christ also tells us that "we shall do greater works than His, when He goes back to His Father." John 14:12
My point is that Christ needn't have been "divine" to accomplish the purpose for which God the Father sent Him. Can we do "greater works" than God? Imo, no, but we could do greater works than a man who was filled to overflowing with the spirit of God, if we are filled with that same spirit.
Was Jesus God before He was conceived to Mary? Yes!
Was Jesus God when He returned to heaven? Yes!
Was Jesus God while on earth? Imo, No!
Did Jesus have to be "divine" to be the Messiah? No! All He had to be was sinless, the perfect sacrifice. The purpose of being conceived by God was so that Christ wouldn't have been born with the basic "sin nature" that all of humanity has been born with since Adam thus qualifying Him, if He didn't fail, to be a truly "perfect", sinless sacrificial Lamb.
Why do I believe this? Two reasons
The first reason is found in Heb. 4:15 - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
Then we have this verse in James 1:13 - "[sup] [/sup]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
When the first scripture says "all points" that had to include the possibility of failure. God cannot fail, but for Christ's sinless life to mean anything the possibility of failure had to be present which means He was totally human. Secondly, if He was God, or a "God-man" then He could never have been tempted with evil in the first place, yet scriptures record how greatly He was tempted after His widerness experience and I'm sure that was not the only time in His earthly life that He was tempted because most of us aren't tempted with the things He was offered by Satan.
The second reason is that most people who "declare" Him, the Son of God usually are referencing His "divine" nature but as Paul told us, we are joint-heirs ( which means in this area we are equal to Christ) with Christ whereby we all can be considered "sons of God". However, can we really say, "we are gods? I'm certainly not going to make that assumption, but Christ also tells us that "we shall do greater works than His, when He goes back to His Father." John 14:12
My point is that Christ needn't have been "divine" to accomplish the purpose for which God the Father sent Him. Can we do "greater works" than God? Imo, no, but we could do greater works than a man who was filled to overflowing with the spirit of God, if we are filled with that same spirit.
Hi Trekson,
You don't have to:
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou,
being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him,
whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:
that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
You don't have to:
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou,
being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him,
whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:
that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
If you look at each of those references closely, they are actually addressing the behavior of the different people. It was a heart matter. In John 10:33, Jesus is speaking to those Jews who wanted to stone Him. In Psalm 82:6, He is addressing people who are not doing right. Psalm 82 actually lines up with Ezekiel 28 very closely.
Hi seekandfind,
Thanks for this observation. I'll check it out. It makes sense in the light of Genesis 3:5.
I believe the aim of salvation is for God to restore His image in us, that we become true sons, in every attitude like our Father above.
Thanks for this observation. I'll check it out. It makes sense in the light of Genesis 3:5.
I believe the aim of salvation is for God to restore His image in us, that we become true sons, in every attitude like our Father above.
No. There is no such thing as an "incarnation". It is simply eastern mythology.
However, as a "Theophany", YHVH manifested Himself to man on many occasions.
As a burning bush. As a whirlwind. As "The Lord" a man with two companions, to Abraham on occasions. And as Melchisedek, "without mother or father, no beginning of life nor end of days"...
Now, in these "last days" as the Son of the Highest. Born of the line of Judah as well as from the Dayspring on High.
Without controversy, great is this mystery :)
Amen Vet.
I confess that Jesus the Christ is come in my flesh, yes!
Hello everyone, is Christ COME in YOUR flesh?
If so, then you understand "God manifestation". :)
Peace
Here is a perfect example of Jesus testifying that he is the Son of God and not God,You read this all throughout the Gospels.THe idea that Jesus is God seems to be a man made assumption.
Yes He came as Melchizedek.
Christ is a priest forever of the order of Melchizedek. A created body God raised to meet with Abraham.
And walk among men.
Christ prayed everyday to the Spirit that is God. So that those who would follow His example could come back to God. Christ was man born of a virgin birth by the Spirit of the Living God. God is Spirit and is everywhere all the time making everything happen and holding it all together. He doesn't need ears to hear, sense He created ears, and He doesn't need eyes to see, sense He created eyes.
It would stand to reason, even with a carnal mind, that God was in heaven (His Throne) and in Christ at the same time.
Hi Plaides,
I understand completely what you're saying, and why it appears that way in the English BIbles, but remember, when Jesus referred to God as His Father using an intimate term for 'father', the Jews were outraged because they understood He was making Himself equal with God. Much of the support for believing Jesus is God, comes from the Old Testament - which is all the apostles had on the day of Pentecost. It was the OT which Jesus had expounded to them (Emmaus road) after His resurrection. They still had not received the Holy Spirit, but once they did, things all fell into place, as you see in Acts 2, when Peter is preaching.
These verses are taken from the Sacred Name Bible, which retains the Hebrew names. www.sacrednamebible.com
The name ELOHIYM is the only one used in Genesis 1 - thirty two times.
By Genesis 2, we have Yahweh - God's personal name - introduced -
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,
Jeremiah 23
5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper,
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:
Acts 2 http://sacrednamebible.com/B44C002.htm
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with ELOHIYM, and the Word was EL.
2 The same was in the beginning with ELOHIYM.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIYM, is for ever and ever:
10 And, Thou, EL, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible ELOHIYM, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
Remember Adam was created in God's image? Something happened to that image when Adam sinned, but it was in that likeness - of sinful flesh - that Jesus Christ came. So, although Elohiym is invisible, when visible in the form of Man, He's the Original.
I understand completely what you're saying, and why it appears that way in the English BIbles, but remember, when Jesus referred to God as His Father using an intimate term for 'father', the Jews were outraged because they understood He was making Himself equal with God. Much of the support for believing Jesus is God, comes from the Old Testament - which is all the apostles had on the day of Pentecost. It was the OT which Jesus had expounded to them (Emmaus road) after His resurrection. They still had not received the Holy Spirit, but once they did, things all fell into place, as you see in Acts 2, when Peter is preaching.
These verses are taken from the Sacred Name Bible, which retains the Hebrew names. www.sacrednamebible.com
The name ELOHIYM is the only one used in Genesis 1 - thirty two times.
By Genesis 2, we have Yahweh - God's personal name - introduced -
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that YHVH ELOHIYM made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:
for YHVH ELOHIYM had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Jeremiah 23
5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper,
and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:
and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Acts 2 http://sacrednamebible.com/B44C002.htm
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of ELOHIYM, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with ELOHIYM, and the Word was EL.
2 The same was in the beginning with ELOHIYM.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIYM, is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore ELOHIYM, even thy EL, hath anointed thee
with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, EL, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible ELOHIYM, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Remember Adam was created in God's image? Something happened to that image when Adam sinned, but it was in that likeness - of sinful flesh - that Jesus Christ came. So, although Elohiym is invisible, when visible in the form of Man, He's the Original.
Genesis 14
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.
Psalm 110
4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 5
6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";
.
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.
Psalm 110
4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 5
6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";
.
With a scriptual mind we know this by the following verse Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice,saying Eli,Eli,LA-ma sabach-thani?that is to say ,My God, my God ,why hast thou forsaken me ?" here again is Jesus talking to his father,Why then we should assume Jesus is God?
Assume Jesus is God?????
According to the Scripture, JESUS made EVERYTHING! And without him, nothing could be made!
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus CHRIST was both man AND God. And not just a God. He was THE GOD. There is no other beside him.
Jesus crying out on the cross was his humanity. Jesus' humanity took on the sins of the whole world. Sin separates us from God. When Jesus' cried out, it was because his humanity, which was sinless, now had voluntarily taken on the sin of the WHOLE world and now felt the separation that sin causes.
Isa_59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I understand much has been lost with each translation.But here is what the Archangel Gabriel had to say about Jesus..Luke 1:31,32" And behold,thou shalt conceive in thy womb,and bring forth a son,and shalt call his name Jesus.He shall be great and called the son of the highest:and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." The angel never says Jesus is God. The Angel would know if Jesus was God.
Hi Plaides,
Therefore those six instances using the original Hebrews names of God have helped you greatly. :)
The angel does know that Jesus is God. Luke 1:34, 35.
You quoted Luke. Now look at Matthew's account of the same announcement. Chapter 1:
20 But while he [Joseph] thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [Note: the angel of the Lord may not have been Gabriel.]
It has been suggested that God with us could also be translated 'God [is] one of us'.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
So now we have eight places at least, in which Jesus is called God in scripture. Beware lest you fall in the trap of which Jesus spoke in His parable about the rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I know I could find more verses which show the Jesus is God, using the Sacred Name Bible.
What I wonder is, if you want to carry on theorising that Jesus is not God, how are you going to rid the scriptures of those verses?
Are you an honest workman who desires rightly to divide the word of God, or, will nothing in the Bible change your mind?
There is another aspect to the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy which you may not have studied. That is, the promise to David that one of his descendants would sit on his throne for ever. The fact that Mary was a natural descendant of David was vital in fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy. Although Isaiah didn't mention it, everyone in Israel knew that the King they were waiting for, would come from Judah.
Final thought:
It is always wise to use as many verses as possible before making a theological construct from one's findings.
Therefore those six instances using the original Hebrews names of God have helped you greatly. :)
The angel does know that Jesus is God. Luke 1:34, 35.
You quoted Luke. Now look at Matthew's account of the same announcement. Chapter 1:
20 But while he [Joseph] thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [Note: the angel of the Lord may not have been Gabriel.]
It has been suggested that God with us could also be translated 'God [is] one of us'.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
So now we have eight places at least, in which Jesus is called God in scripture. Beware lest you fall in the trap of which Jesus spoke in His parable about the rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I know I could find more verses which show the Jesus is God, using the Sacred Name Bible.
What I wonder is, if you want to carry on theorising that Jesus is not God, how are you going to rid the scriptures of those verses?
Are you an honest workman who desires rightly to divide the word of God, or, will nothing in the Bible change your mind?
There is another aspect to the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy which you may not have studied. That is, the promise to David that one of his descendants would sit on his throne for ever. The fact that Mary was a natural descendant of David was vital in fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy. Although Isaiah didn't mention it, everyone in Israel knew that the King they were waiting for, would come from Judah.
Final thought:
It is always wise to use as many verses as possible before making a theological construct from one's findings.
It's easy to show how what you've assumed from those Scriptures does not account for many other Scriptures where Jesus is proclaimed as part of The Godhead.
The unbelieving Jews at Jesus' first coming well understood His proclamation that He is God come in the flesh. They didn't believe Him either, but they well knew that's what He was saying, that He is God...
John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
Christ Jesus declaired to those unbelieving Jews that He is The I AM, one of The LORD's sacred names. And they well understood what He was saying there, which is why they sought then to stone Him.
Rev 1:5-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)
That last statement in bold is another proclamation that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. It's from Old Testament Scripture in Isaiah...
Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.
(KJV)
Isa 48:12-13
12 Hearken unto Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
(KJV)
Per Hebrews, The Father created all things through The Son. But The LORD sitll did not leave any guess work at all about The Christ being born through a virgin, i.e., Jesus Christ, and His being God come in the flesh...
Isa 7:13-14
13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)
Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(KJV)
It is there in the Book of Isaiah where The Father declared The Christ being born through flesh woman as "Immanuel", which per Matthew 1:23 means "God with us". And those Titles of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father" are directly applied to Immanuel by The Father through His prophet Isaiah.
And that declaration by The LORD was made long, long... ago to the people of Israel through His prophet Isaiah. So how is it that many among the Jews today still refuse... to believe that as written? According to Paul in Romans 11, it's because God has 'blinded' them to not believe it nor understand it. But those of the Jews that do turn to Christ Jesus are to have that vail removed to understand that, and should no longer dwell in the religious doctrines of the Jew's religion.
I have read all the verses shown to me saying Jesus is God yet I am not all the way convinced,For example in John1:1 why does john refer to Jesus as the "word",why doesnt he just say Jesus if that is what he meant
Now listen to what Peter(the diciple closest to jesus)has to say Peter1:3"Blessed be God and father of our lord Jesus Christ,which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." It is clear to see from this verse that God and Jesus are not the same person.
Now here is a verse from the 2 epistle of John1:3"Grace be with you mercy and peace,from God the father ,and from the lord Jesus Christ,the son of the father ,in truth and love".
All of the original Christians knew the difference between God and Jesus.
Now listen to what Peter(the diciple closest to jesus)has to say Peter1:3"Blessed be God and father of our lord Jesus Christ,which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." It is clear to see from this verse that God and Jesus are not the same person.
Now here is a verse from the 2 epistle of John1:3"Grace be with you mercy and peace,from God the father ,and from the lord Jesus Christ,the son of the father ,in truth and love".
All of the original Christians knew the difference between God and Jesus.
You know what? Jesus never tried to convince people either. If they didn't want to accept it, he just moved on.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I would like to thank you for your kind words,I believe Jesus was who he said he was, THE SON OF GOD ,,my personal lord and saviour,the Messiah.
Similar threads
