Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

No. Baptism in the Spirit is not a reward; baptism in the Spirit is an act of God's grace.

No. Jesus Christ is the Lord, and being born again is a good thing. :)



(See I'm doing what you are doing here...making statements that have NOTHING to do with the response....welcome to confusion)

 

[Episkopos]

No Epi, we don't sin because we are weak; we sin because we are evil.

I wondered that about you! ;) But you are wrong. A natural human is both good and evil. There is the tree called the tree of the knowledge (and experience) of good AND evil. People are mixed. But the wicked can go towards the evil just as the righteous can move towards the good. Neither doing so completely.

The problem isn't with our strength.

Yes it is...at least in the bible. Paul says the good he wants to do...he cannot do. Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What does it say in your bible?

The problem is with our will.

No. Paul said he wanted to do what is right and good. Maybe the problem in YOUR life is your will...maybe you WANT to do evil. But that is NOT the experience of one converted to Christ. Just sayin'...

But unlike you, we don't believe that God has left us weak,

Unlike me? What are you accusing me of not wanting to do evil?

groping around to find an appropriate technique whereby we can appropriate the power of God.

That is called faith...not a technique at all.

No. We believe that God himself strengthens us. Our strength of character is an aspect of our regeneration, not an element of an alleged second blessing.

Why do you need to be strengthened if your will is to do evil? Will you now do greater evil with that greater strength?

In Biblical terms, believers are those who have faith. But according to your cult definition of "faith" you mean to ask, "why won't believers appropriate the "principle of power." Faith as power is a doctrine unfamiliar to the Bible.

And also unfamiliar to me. Grace is the power that is accessed through faith. By grace through faith. What does your bible say?

 

[Ritajanice]

All the Born again are "Saints", exactly as they are become "Sons/Daughters" of God. "In Christ"... "One with God'.

None of this is earned.
Its all a part of "The Gift of Salvation".

Thanks for that, that’s exactly what I believe also, ...God knows I lack confidence in certain areas, then along he comes in the Spirit through you and confirms what I was already believing.

Praise God for that.....

The saint is a saint because they have been given the righteousness of Christ.

they are one and the same

Amen!!...I just needed to hear it through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

No. Jesus Christ is the Lord, and being born again is a good thing.

Hi again Epi, can you explain what Born Again means, just so I can get a better understanding of your theology?...thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi again Epi, can you explain what Born Again means, just so I can get a better understanding of your theology?...thanks.

We live in a temporal world...born into it as human beings, from OTHER human beings...limited to what we experience through our natural senses.

To be born of the Spirit is by the will of God...opening us up to eternal possibilities in Christ...(the HOPE of glory)...by giving us a sample of His grace...so that we can taste and see that the Lord is good. :) Those who have been born again have now an experience of eternal consciousness...for as long as that lasts...and a proof of God's existence and love. But this level of grace takes us into a wilderness walk whereby we are to go to God to get the FULL measure of His grace to walk as Jesus walked by abiding IN Him.

MANY will be born again and then bury their "talent"...and NOT build with the appropriate eternal materials. They will be rejected by God...as not pleasing to Him.

I warn believers of this...encouraging them to go to the light...to go to God in full surrender to enter INTO Christ and be accepted into the Beloved. :)

 

[Ritajanice]

We live in a temporal world...born into it as human beings, from OTHER human beings...limited to what we experience through our natural senses.

To be born of the Spirit is by the will of God...opening us up to eternal possibilities in Christ...(the HOPE of glory)...by giving us a sample of His grace...so that we can taste and see that the Lord is good. :) Those who have been born again have now an experience of eternal consciousness...for as long as that lasts...and a proof of God's existence and love. But this level of grace takes us into a wilderness walk whereby we are to go to God to get the FULL measure of His grace to walk as Jesus walked by abiding IN Him.

Giving a sample of His grace ,what does that mean?

When I was birthed in the Spirit, he birthed my spirit into His, testifying with my spirit that I am his child, he did it supernaturally through the Holy Spirit.

Eternal consciousness, meaning what exactly ? for as long as that lasts...proof of God’s existence and Love comes through the Spirit,when we are birthed ?

This level of grace takes us into the wilderness walk, I would say, when we are Born Again, we are then taken into his Kingdom....which in honesty was a huge shock to my system at first....I’ve had to learn from the Spirit God’s ways, which is the complete opposite to the world....it has been extremely hard, my flesh was at war with the Spirit when I first became Born Again, that is something I will never forget......God has got me to surrender fully to him.....we can’t fight God...and why would we want to, but we also have to get to that place of understanding, through the Spirit....just my thoughts and belief.

MANY will be born again and then bury their "talent"...and NOT build with the appropriate eternal materials. They will be rejected by God...as not pleasing to Him.

A Born Again can’t bury their talent,imo, they are a child of God and are kept by the Holy Spirit.

I warn believers of this...encouraging them to go to the light...to go to God in full surrender to enter INTO Christ and be accepted into the Beloved. :)

We already are in the beloved God as soon as we are Born Again.

 

[Ritajanice]

No. Baptism in the Spirit is not a reward; baptism in the Spirit is an act of God's grace.

Amen!!...Praise God for showing us his mercy!!

 

[Episkopos]

Giving a sample of His grace ,what does that mean?

Unlike Jesus, we don't get an unlimited amount of grace. :) We get enough for the task at hand. We have each received a measure of faith....and a measure of grace. A measure means not the full amount. Like a downpayment.

When I was birthed in the Spirit, he birthed my spirit into His, testifying with my spirit that I am his child, he did it supernaturally through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that's how it works. Without that kind of spiritual birth we are left to our own temporal understanding and senses. Now we are responsible to God for something greater...becoming the equivalent of the Israelites who were saved into the wilderness...for them a physical Promised Land...for us a spiritual kingdom of God.

Eternal consciousness, meaning what exactly ? for as long as that lasts...proof of God’s existence and Love comes through the Spirit,when we are birthed ?

Jesus lives in the kingdom realm of the Spirit...in Zion. One who is born from above is brought into contact with God in heaven...in the realm of the Spirit.

This level of grace takes us into the wilderness walk, I would say, when we are Born Again, we are then taken into his Kingdom....which in honesty was a huge shock to my system at first....I’ve had to learn from the Spirit God’s ways, which is the complete opposite to the world....it has been extremely hard, my flesh was at war with the Spirit when I first became Born Again, that is something I will never forget......God has got me to surrender fully to him.....we can’t fight God...and why would we want to, but we also have to get to that place of understanding, through the Spirit....just my thoughts and belief.


A Born Again can’t bury their talent,imo, they are a child of God and are kept by the Holy Spirit.

That's your opinion...which places TOO MUCH on a sample of grace. You still need to be faithful. Those who are Christ's are called, chosen, AND faithful.

We already are in the beloved God as soon as we are Born Again.

No....we are novices who are given a sample to test us...what we will do with what we have been given. Many will excuse their condition and refuse to advance in the Spirit...instead being fearful and hanging on for dear life to what they have already experienced.

We tend to become prisoners of our own experience. We tend to be over-confident. And it is hard to dispel ignorance if we retain arrogance and a smug assurance based on assumptions and presumptions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No. Jesus Christ is the Lord, and being born again is a good thing. :)



(See I'm doing what you are doing here...making statements that have NOTHING to do with the response....welcome to confusion)

its not just good. its REQUIRED

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We live in a temporal world...born into it as human beings, from OTHER human beings...limited to what we experience through our natural senses.

To be born of the Spirit is by the will of God...opening us up to eternal possibilities in Christ...(the HOPE of glory)...by giving us a sample of His grace...so that we can taste and see that the Lord is good. :) Those who have been born again have now an experience of eternal consciousness...for as long as that lasts...and a proof of God's existence and love. But this level of grace takes us into a wilderness walk whereby we are to go to God to get the FULL measure of His grace to walk as Jesus walked by abiding IN Him.

MANY will be born again and then bury their "talent"...and NOT build with the appropriate eternal materials. They will be rejected by God...as not pleasing to Him.

I warn believers of this...encouraging them to go to the light...to go to God in full surrender to enter INTO Christ and be accepted into the Beloved. :)

notice that Jesus never mentions any of this when he tells nicodemus HOW to be born again or what it is..

 

[Ritajanice]

Unlike Jesus, we don't get an unlimited amount of grace. :) We get enough for the task at hand. We have each received a measure of faith....and a measure of grace. A measure means not the full amount. Like a downpayment.


Yes, that's how it works. Without that kind of spiritual birth we are left to our own temporal understanding and senses. Now we are responsible to God for something greater...becoming the equivalent of the Israelites who were saved into the wilderness...for them a physical Promised Land...for us a spiritual kingdom of God.


Jesus lives in the kingdom realm of the Spirit...in Zion. One who is born from above is brought into contact with God in heaven...in the realm of the Spirit.


That's your opinion...which places TOO MUCH on a sample of grace. You still need to be faithful. Those who are Christ's are called, chosen, AND faithful.

No....we are novices who are given a sample to test us...what we will do with what we have been given. Many will excuse their condition and refuse to advance in the Spirit...instead being fearful and hanging on for dear life to what they have already experienced.

We tend to become prisoners of our own experience. We tend to be over-confident. And it is hard to dispel ignorance if we retain arrogance and a smug assurance based on assumptions and presumptions.

I will leave you to it,Epi,as I haven’t a clue what you are talking about here...enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[Azim]

To be born of the Spirit is by the will of God...opening us up to eternal possibilities in Christ...(the HOPE of glory)...by giving us a sample of His grace...so that we can taste and see that the Lord is good. :) Those who have been born again have now an experience of eternal consciousness...for as long as that lasts...and a proof of God's existence and love. But this level of grace takes us into a wilderness walk whereby we are to go to God to get the FULL measure of His grace to walk as Jesus walked by abiding IN Him.

I've been thinking about an analogy that works to better understand what you mean by the "sample of His grace". Would it be something like the following?
God gifts us his initial grace. It would be like God giving us a very small plant in a pot, which we don't know what it will become. In accepting it, many of us rejoice greatly that God has chosen to give us something, especially from knowing our state of being a sinner. So there is a big wow factor for us. Now, going forward, we have to make two choices at least. Just like any gift, we can take care of it, or put it somewhere and forget it. In the second case, one can put the potted plant away, out of sight, and it will wither and die. We won't ever know what the plant really was.
In the first case, we take care of the plant and water it. As it grows, we plant it outside, and watch it grow into what it really becomes. Its a sort of work we still have to do, but truly, it would be a labor of love, and not hardship. One day, we see the plant has become a fruit tree. The branches are large, and it provides shade for us and others on a hot day. The fruits it produces brings a blessing to us and others as well.

 

[Ritajanice]

◄ 1 Corinthians 3:7 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. New Living Translation It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. English Standard Version So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. Berean Standard Bible So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. Berean Literal Bible So neither the one planting nor the one watering is anything, but only God, the One giving growth. King James Bible So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. New King James Version So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I will leave you to it,Epi,as I haven’t a clue what you are talking about here...enjoy the rest of your day.

to be honest. I have to wonder if he does lol

 

[Ritajanice]

to be honest. I have to wonder if he does lol

I hear you, God once again has shown me to be polite....he hates my ego and pride....he ignores me when I’m in that state...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've been thinking about an analogy that works to better understand what you mean by the "sample of His grace". Would it be something like the following?
God gifts us his initial grace. It would be like God giving us a very small plant in a pot, which we don't know what it will become. In accepting it, many of us rejoice greatly that God has chosen to give us something, especially from knowing our state of being a sinner. So there is a big wow factor for us. Now, going forward, we have to make two choices at least. Just like any gift, we can take care of it, or put it somewhere and forget it. In the second case, one can put the potted plant away, out of sight, and it will wither and die. We won't ever know what the plant really was.
In the first case, we take care of the plant and water it. As it grows, we plant it outside, and watch it grow into what it really becomes. Its a sort of work we still have to do, but truly, it would be a labor of love, and not hardship. One day, we see the plant has become a fruit tree. The branches are large, and it provides shade for us and others on a hot day. The fruits it produces brings a blessing to us and others as well.

this is a great example of how we can be sanctified through christian growth. or we can hinder our own growth and sanctification by what we do with the gift God gives us.

of course we have to remember, the most important gift (justification or eternal life) can not fade away. or die.. Because this gift is Gods alone to empower..

I think this is where alot of confusion comes from..

 

[Episkopos]

its not just good. its REQUIRED

Required for what? Do you even know? Or is this something that you are so indoctrinated you act like a zombie saying...I must have...I must have (not knowing why, of course)

 

[Ritajanice]

I've been thinking about an analogy that works to better understand what you mean by the "sample of His grace". Would it be something like the following?
God gifts us his initial grace. It would be like God giving us a very small plant in a pot, which we don't know what it will become. In accepting it, many of us rejoice greatly that God has chosen to give us something, especially from knowing our state of being a sinner. So there is a big wow factor for us. Now, going forward, we have to make two choices at least. Just like any gift, we can take care of it, or put it somewhere and forget it. In the second case, one can put the potted plant away, out of sight, and it will wither and die. We won't ever know what the plant really was.
In the first case, we take care of the plant and water it. As it grows, we plant it outside, and watch it grow into what it really becomes. Its a sort of work we still have to do, but truly, it would be a labor of love, and not hardship. One day, we see the plant has become a fruit tree. The branches are large, and it provides shade for us and others on a hot day. The fruits it produces brings a blessing to us and others as well.

Very interesting analogy, thank you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Required for what? Do you even know? Or is this something that you are so indoctrinated you act like a zombie saying...I must have...I must have (not knowing why, of course)

Being Born Again is required, to be reconciled back to God,..Without the rebirth, you are still dead and in sin.....and of course he knows why, he’s been preaching the word of God,imo/ belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. Jesus Christ is the Lord, and being born again is a good thing. :)



(See I'm doing what you are doing here...making statements that have NOTHING to do with the response....welcome to confusion)

This kind of response is indicative of someone who has no answer. Or can't defend a position.