Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

I've been thinking about an analogy that works to better understand what you mean by the "sample of His grace". Would it be something like the following?
God gifts us his initial grace. It would be like God giving us a very small plant in a pot, which we don't know what it will become. In accepting it, many of us rejoice greatly that God has chosen to give us something, especially from knowing our state of being a sinner. So there is a big wow factor for us. Now, going forward, we have to make two choices at least. Just like any gift, we can take care of it, or put it somewhere and forget it. In the second case, one can put the potted plant away, out of sight, and it will wither and die. We won't ever know what the plant really was.
In the first case, we take care of the plant and water it. As it grows, we plant it outside,

An excellent analogy. Taking that plant outside to grow big and tall is akin to taking our sample of grace to plant it in God's garden...where God is...in His abode in Zion in the Spirit...being translated into the kingdom of His dear Son...so that it can grow into the likeness of Christ.

What people nowadays can't hear is that God wants us to GO TO HIM...before we die. People will rebel very much with the idea that they must go to God to fulfill the first talent they have received. That's why people are so against me. They want to be happy to NOT go to God...as if that was impossible. But that is precisely the "race of faith"...which is to be accepted into the Beloved...as the Bride of Christ.

If we don't have the love, the faith, the perseverance to wait on God for...His translation into Zion and the kingdom walk.....then we cannot rule and reign with Him.

and watch it grow into what it really becomes. Its a sort of work we still have to do, but truly, it would be a labor of love, and not hardship. One day, we see the plant has become a fruit tree. The branches are large, and it provides shade for us and others on a hot day. The fruits it produces brings a blessing to us and others as well.

Yes...but not if we keep the plant in the small container of our selves. The foundation is Christ Himself (an actual encounter WHERE He is)...not "Christ in you". We limit God to our own experience unless we have the faith to go to God with what He has given to us as a deposit...in order to get the full measure of grace...at the throne of grace.

We tend to become prisoners of our own experience. That's where faith in God comes in...taking us outside of ourselves into the other realm...the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

This kind of response is indicative of someone who has no answer. Or can't defend a position.

I can't give a good answer to a bad question. Improve your question and you will get a better answer.

You are still at the stage where there is no sense to your questioning...like what colour is 5?

How can one answer seriously something like that?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Required for what? Do you even know? Or is this something that you are so indoctrinated you act like a zombie saying...I must have...I must have (not knowing why, of course)

required for what?

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Its not a paraphrase.....its the core of the Book of Mormon.

I realize that you dont care to find any of this out, and you just want to argue, without understanding.
But really, you should at least investigate .........this, and compare it to What He teaches.

"""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

From your fixation with the metadata of the book of mormon, I now can understand Episkopos' hesitancy to speak the verses to you. You should show proper awe and piety to the Wisdom of God.

A beautiful verse

Habakkuk 3
18Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

faithfulness's post#140 should have explained it all

 

[Episkopos]

required for what?

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

That's better. Unless one is born again one cannot either see or enter into God's kingdom realm.

But do you understand what that means? It's like saying unless one is born of flesh one cannot see or enter into planet earth.

Basic stuff.

Unless we are born INTO Zion and the realm of the SPIRIT we cannot EXPERIENCE what spiritual faculties allow us to see and do. To walk with Christ and do what He did...in His resurrection life and power.

Right Now!

 

[Ritajanice]

Unless we are born INTO Zion and the realm of the SPIRIT we cannot EXPERIENCE what spiritual faculties allow us to see and do. To walk with Christ and do what He did...in His resurrection life and power.

We are birthed in the Spirit Epi.

We aren’t physically born into ZION and the realm of the Spirit......being Born Again is the spiritual rebirth...it can only be done by God through the Spirit.

ZION has got nothing to do with God birthing us in the Spirit..

We can’t experience God/ Jesus unless we have been birthed by him.

That’s why I always talk about being Born Again......you’re on your own if you aren’t Born Again....I:also believe God has placed it on my heart to preach and I will continue to do so....I listen to God and God only.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's better. Unless one is born again one cannot either see or enter into God's kingdom realm.

But do you understand what that means? It's like saying unless one is born of flesh one cannot see or enter into planet earth.

Basic stuff.

Unless we are born INTO Zion and the realm of the SPIRIT we cannot EXPERIENCE what spiritual faculties allow us to see and do. To walk with Christ and do what He did...in His resurrection life and power.

what does it mean? Again, Just read what Jesus said

John 3:
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1. The son of man came to earth.
2. As moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted
3. Whoever believes in him will be born again, They will NEVER DIE. and they will LIVE FOREVER (eternal life)
4. Jesus was not sent to judge, but to save. being born again is to be saved from Gods wrath. and made alive in Christ
5. Whoever believes is not condemned,,
6 whoever does nto believe is condemned already.

John the baptist understood this. as we see if we read further

John 3:
31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him

Thats what it is all about

we are dead

we must be made alive

if we are made alive, we will never die.

its not all the mumbo jumbo you keep trying to say it is. Nothing in jesus words to nicodemus about being born again what it is and how it is done says anything about what you claim.

 

[amigo de christo]

Atonement, noun;
reparation for a wrong or injury. (payment)
*in religious contexts* reparation or expiation for sin.

As believers of his word it is
the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ, who is our benefactor, for the sin debt we owed that separated us from a holy God. Something we could not do, which Christ did in our stead.

Forgiveness;
The definition of forgiveness is essentially the act of pardoning an offender, not requiring payment for the wrong. In the Bible, the Greek word translated “forgiveness” literally means “to let go”, as when a person does not demand payment for a debt.This also we are to do to our brethren, our enemies and any who may wrong us !

Jesus is the atonement for our forgiveness of sin, by his reparation payment of his sinless life, he alone was able to make such an offering before the Father. The wages of sin, which is death, will be required of all if we die in unbelief.

The act of atonement was and is offered in forgiveness to all who will believe!

yet many folks sure seem to love to ignore the last four Words that you Purposefully made darker . TO ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE .
that is what most no longer want , desire to believe . Rather its just the all inclusive delusion of a false love they want to buy and to beleive .
But lambs Will allow no such lie . oh no sister , OH NO we gonna POINT TO JESUS CHRIST and we gonna remind TO BELIEVE
yep , TO BELEIVE on HIM and nutting else gonna save one .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are birthed in the Spirit Epi.

We aren’t physically born into ZION and the realm of the Spirit......being Born Again is the spiritual rebirth...it can only be done by God through the Spirit.

ZION has got nothing to do with God birthing us in the Spirit..

We can’t experience God/ Jesus unless we have been birthed by him.

sadly again he thinks it is about what he does.. not about what God did and continues to do.

 

[Episkopos]

We are birthed in the Spirit Epi.

We aren’t physically born into ZION and the realm of the Spirit......being Born Again is the spiritual rebirth...it can only be done by God through the Spirit.

ZION has got nothing to do with God birthing us in the Spirit..

We can’t experience God/ Jesus unless we have been birthed by him.

The Jerusalem which is above the mother of us all...those who have been birthed anew from Zion..

In the Septuagint Ps 87 reads like this...

renton's Septuagint​

Psalms 87:5​

A man shall say, Zion is my mother; and such a man was born in her; and the Highest himself has founded her.​

I may be the only man here who can say that. Pretty sad.
Paul uses that verse to then say...


Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

What is the Jerusalem which is above? It is Zion, where God abides with His saints.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I wondered that about you! ;) But you are wrong. A natural human is both good and evil.

I respectfully disagree. Don't confuse action with state of being. I am evil, that is an element of my nature. Jesus said so himself.

Jesus argues from the lessor to the greater here.

Matthew 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

His statement assumes that we are evil.

Yes it is...at least in the bible. Paul says the good he wants to do...he cannot do. Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What does it say in your bible?

Paul's argument isn't predicated on his weakness; it is predicated on his metaphysics, i.e. "I find that sin is in me."

Paul said he wanted to do what is right and good.

We all do.

Unlike me? What are you accusing me of not wanting to do evil?

What I am saying is Christianity 101. Try to keep up. I am reacting to your innovation that we sin because we are weak. This is the basis for why we need to appeal to God for strength, as if strength wasn't already an aspect of God's gift of salvation.

That is called faith...not a technique at all.

You may call it "faith" but that isn't what the Bible means by the term.

Why do you need to be strengthened if your will is to do evil? Will you now do greater evil with that greater strength?

I could ask you the same question. Why do you suppose you need strength to do the right thing if you aren't evil? For the single-minded man, doing the right thing is easy. A single-minded man does the right thing because he wants to do the right thing. Only the double-minded man needs strength to do the right thing because he is at war with himself.

Evil is not cured with strength; evil is cured with "willing one thing." The role of the Holy Spirit is to help a man or woman in Christ to know themselves for who they really are. In this way, the Holy Spirit helps us focus on what we REALLY want. Knowing that, then doing the right thing is easy, once we are freed of conflicting motives.

And also unfamiliar to me. Grace is the power that is accessed through faith. By grace through faith. What does your bible say?

Grace is not power. Why is everything about power? Grace is an unmerited favor.

But don't lose the concept. Sanctification is not a second grace of salvation. Sanctification IS salvation. Instead of "justification by faith" we should say, "justification by sanctification" understanding that faith itself is an element of being sanctified by God.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Jerusalem which is above the mother of us all...those who have been birthed anew from Zion..

In the Septuagint Ps 87 reads like this...

renton's Septuagint​

Psalms 87:5​

A man shall say, Zion is my mother; and such a man was born in her; and the Highest himself has founded her.​

I may be the only man here who can say that. Pretty sad.
Paul uses that verse to then say...


Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This has got nothing to do with God supernaturally birthing us in the Spirit...once we are birthed it’s a one time event.....a mind blowing event, done by God through the Spirit....it’s an Honour and Privilege to be birthed in the Spirit by God.....biggest Honour of anyone’s life..

A Born Again belongs to God...they are his...they can NEVER be un- birthed either...

 

[Episkopos]

This has got nothing to do with God supernaturally birthing us in the Spirit...once we are birthed it’s a one time event.....a mind blowing event, done by God through the Spirit....it’s an Honour and Privilege to be birthed in the Spirit by God.....biggest Honour of anyone’s life..

Biggest honour so far...you mean. Now you have shut down the whole process based on your own evaluation of a free sample of grace. Make sure no one takes it from you...maybe bury it to keep it safe?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can't give a good answer to a bad question. Improve your question and you will get a better answer.

You are still at the stage where there is no sense to your questioning...like what colour is 5?

How can one answer seriously something like that?

If you can't make sense of what I say, then take the requisite time. I don't think I am unclear. I could be wrong but from my perspective, it appears that you have a preconceived notion in mind before you sit down to study the scriptures. Then you go looking for passages that seem to support your notion.

The proper way to study the Bible is to put aside our questions and allow the scriptures to teach us what THEY want to say. I believe that you find my posts hard to understand because you are attempting to understand me while looking through your "holiness" glasses.

 

[Ritajanice]

Biggest honour so far...you mean. Now you have shut down the whole process based on your own evaluation of a free sample of grace. Make sure no one takes it from you...maybe bury it to keep it safe?

Biggest Honour of a persons life is to be birthed in the Spirit and become one of God’s children....it’s also an Honour to grow and mature in his Son through the Holy Spirits guidance.....nothing on the planet like it....and all the GLORY goes to Jesus...for laying his life down for us, so that we can be reconciled back to God.

Free sample of grace you say ...being birthed in the Spirit was mind blowing for me!!.....and Praise God that he is growing and maturing me in his Son, Lord Jesus!!!

 

[marks]

it’s an Honour and Privilege to be birthed in the Spirit by God.....biggest Honour of anyone’s life..

You've just said a mouthful!!

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Biggest Honour of a persons life is to be birthed in the Spirit and become one of God’s children....it’s also an Honour to grow and mature in his Son through the Holy Spirits guidance.....nothing on the planet like it....and all the GLORY goes to Jesus...for laying his life down for us, so that we can be reconciled back to God.

Free sample of grace you say ...being birthed in the Spirit was mind blowing for me!!.....and Praise God that he is growing and maturing me in his Son, Lord Jesus!!!

Actually an even greater honour is to walk where Jesus walked in His eternal light WHERE He is. Fewer and fewer share God's love of Zion where divinity and humanity come into ONE.

 

[amigo de christo]

That's better. Unless one is born again one cannot either see or enter into God's kingdom realm.

But do you understand what that means? It's like saying unless one is born of flesh one cannot see or enter into planet earth.

Basic stuff.

Unless we are born INTO Zion and the realm of the SPIRIT we cannot EXPERIENCE what spiritual faculties allow us to see and do. To walk with Christ and do what He did...in His resurrection life and power.

no man who believes not that JESUS is the CHRIST has been born again . SORRY epi but false love cannot save one .
ALL other religoins are indeed false and its bout time we preach the message of dire importance to them poor lost souls .
YE MUST BELIEVE JESUS IS CHRIST , HE IS THE SAVOIR , HE ALONE is the savoir . TIME to tell all lost souls that TRUTH .
cause no one is born into ZION by the flesh. YE MUST BELIEVE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
AND IT had better be the biblical one . But you see that reminder as religious .
Rather odd epi that you seem to never USE THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST . rather you say YE must be born into Zion or etc .
HOW come the message of the original gospel is so SILENT in your mouth . Yeah epi , you aint fooling the lambs . Ya aint
fooling the lambs . The world you will convince , but not the lambs .

 

[amigo de christo]

Actually an even greater honour is to walk where Jesus walked in His eternal light WHERE He is. Few share God's love of Zion where divinity and humanity come into ONE.

All who rejected , who failed to repent and beleive , WONT BE COMING INTO THE ONE .
OH i know the all inclusive deluision tries to say otherwise . BUT IT AINT WHAT JESUS TAUGHT .
He said more than once YE MUST beleive . I SUGGEST you start saying the same thing as well .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Biggest honour so far...you mean. Now you have shut down the whole process based on your own evaluation of a free sample of grace. Make sure no one takes it from you...maybe bury it to keep it safe?

WOW,,