Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

[Behold]

We are still awaiting your exegesis of John 3:16 showing why "world" means every man in every age without exception? You are merely "spoof texting" trying to get around what you obviously are not capable of giving us.

I responded carefully to your post.

Did you read it?

Listen, @Arthur81..

I can teach you, but i can't learn it for you.

Jesus said that if "I be lifted up (Crucified) i will draw ALL to me (Men-women- humans)

"ALL" means......"everyone'........."the World".

Same as this verse..

Jesus said....>"ALL that believe in me......i give unto them eternal life and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".

See, a Calvinst like you, sees "ALL" and "WORLD" and just like your Satanic Leader, you say...>"nah.....it does not mean ALL, it means "elect'.

Un huh.
Right.

 

[Arthur81]

I responded carefully to your post.

Did you read it?

Listen, @Arthur81..

I can teach you, but i can't learn it for you.

Jesus said that if "I be lifted up (Crucified) i will draw ALL to me (Men-women- humans)

"ALL" means......"everyone'........."the World".

Same as this verse..

Jesus said....>"ALL that believe in me......i give unto them eternal life and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".

See, a Calvinst like you, sees "ALL" and "WORLD" and just like your Satanic Leader, you say...>"nah.....it does not mean ALL, it means "elect'.

Un huh.
Right.

Behold, again you evaded the question of how you know "world" in John 3:16 means every person without exception. Since you are unable to support your claim, I will support my view of the word "world".

I KNOW "world" in John3:16 cannot mean every individual without exception. Knowing this I can study to get a good idea of what John did mean by the word "world" here.

1. Scripture clearly states that God hated Esau, by name -
"Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Rom 9:13 ASV) That is quoted from Mal 1:3
This in itself keeps John 3:16 from meaning every person without exception.

2. Scripture clearly states that God hates certain type of sinners -
"There are six things which Jehovah hateth...A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren." (Prov 6:19 ASV)
I do not read that Jehovah hated the sin but loved the sinner! That is good for mortals us to practice but this is not what is here said of God.

3. Scripture elsewhere uses "world" when it obviously does not mean every man without exception.
"For no man doeth anything in secret, and himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou doest these things, manifest thyself to the world." (John 7:4 ASV)
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8 ASV)
"If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19 ASV)
In none of these three can world mean every individual who ever lives without exception

4. This same Apostle John writes in Revelation what seems to be his meaning in John 3:16 -
"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV)

5. The word "world" is used with the meaning of Gentiles in the following -
"But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Rom 11:13-15 ASV)

6. Jesus in John chapter 3 is talking with Nicodemus, a Jew
V1, he was a "man of the Pharisees" and a "ruler of the Jews"
V10, Jesus called him "the teacher of Israel".
It is clear it is being emphasized Nicodemus's standing as a proud Jew, and they thought they were the only people of God, the only chosen race. It appears Jesus is letting him know that "God so loved" not only Jews but the world of people as John described it as above in Rev. 5:9

Once I know what an individual verse means, I can then associate it with other scriptures to get a fuller understanding of a topic. I am bound to 'proof text', not 'spoof text'. Do not misunderstand, I do NOT know who God has written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the time of creation, so I cannot speak to individuals from MY knowledge!

 

[Behold]

Behold, again you evaded the question of how you know "world" in John 3:16 means every person without exception.

Because Christ on the Cross is given to the world.

Jesus said.."If i be lifted up (on the Cross), i will draw ALL people (men/women/humans) to me".

So, "All people:" = For God so loved the WORLD ( of people) That He Gave JESUS, "on the Cross" "if i be lifted up".

Calvin changed "all" to Elect, by redefining "God's Foreknowledge" as "pre-destined".

 

[Johann]

I'm not sure about "top or bottom", but I know there are the "elect" and there are the "reprobate". God loves and cares for those he chose, the elect. Those for whom he died to provide their salvation.

This is actually erroneous-not you-TULIP offers NO assurance of our salvation and our eternal destination.

5 Point Calvinism Refuted MAIN HOMEPAGE

But don't take my word for it.
Johann.

 

[Behold]

Once I know what an individual verse means, I can then associate it with other scriptures to get a fuller understanding of a topic.

@Arthur81

you actually have to start with another understanding, first., when trying to understand the extreme error of John Calvinism.

Its this.
If you can see this, then, you'll see so much that is wrong with John Calvinism.

Now, Do you believe God is Just?

Is God Love?

Is God Truth?

Is God Balanced?

Is God RIGHT?

Is God always merciful?

Is God JUST ????


So, how can God be any of that, if God chooses NOT to allow you to be "pre-destined", to become His, and you are born and didnt ask to be born,,,,. and now God wont ALLOW YOU to become His.....as Calvin teaches that God didnt Choose you as one of the pre-destined.

So, 2 Things......

ON what basis, can God decide that you are chosen, and your mother is not, when both of you are "all have sinned". ????
Both of you are "God is NO RESPECTER of someone,,, of Persons..."...
So, why would God Choose you to be the "elect" and not your kid, not your Mother?
What is the basis, for NOT Choosing your mother, or mine, when all of us are ADAMIC, at birth.... and later, as "all have sinned".

2nd..

A person Goes to Hell because they REJECTED CHRIST and died never born again.
That is the only reason.
So, How Can God, be JUST, and TRUE, and LOVE< and RIGHT.......if God wont choose you to be born again, to become the "elect", and then sends you to hell for being a Christ rejector.....= When God Himself... caused you not to be a believer?

See that?
That is INSANITY, and that is what "pre-destined" means....It means that you go to hell for being a Christ rejector, because God wont choose you to Believe.

Do you see this?
That is Theological Insanity, and that is "pre-destined" theology.

If Calvin is right about God, then God is a Cosmic Psychopath, who wont choose you to BELIEVE, and then damns you to the Lake of FIRE for "unbelief".

That's CALVINISM.
That's LIMITED ATONEMENT.
That's Theological insanity.

Its Satanic.

 

[Johann]

1. Scripture clearly states that God hated Esau, by name -

Not really-a good dictionary will tell you otherwise.


3) "But Esau have I hated;” (ton de Esau emisesa) yet, the one (son) Esau I hated;" or loved to a less degree, in his purpose for his life and service, and that of the Edomites, his offspring nation; Mal_1:3 describes this idea. See also Jer_49:17-18; Jer_50:12-13; Jer_51:37, such was decreed against Chaldee, Babylon, and Edom; Deu_7:6-11. This aspect of God's sovereign power and choice does not conflict with Joh_3:16.
That "love and hate" are often used as comparative or relative terms is evident in their usage where it is recorded that Jacob "hated" Leah and that he "loved Rachel the more," Gen_29:30; Gen_29:32-33. This idea is also used in the New Testament, Mat_10:37, Joh_12:25.

THE MYSTERY OF GOD'S LOVE

A gentleman who thought Christianity was merely a heap of puzzling problems said to an old minister, "That is a very strange statement, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated,' "Very strange," replied the minister, but what is it that you see most strange about it?" "Oh, that part of course about hating Esau." 'Well, sir," said the minister, "how wonderfully are we made and how differently constituted. The strangest part of all to me is that He could ever have loved Jacob. There is no mystery so glorious as the mystery of God's love."
-N. T. Anecdotes

 

[St. SteVen]

I KNOW "world" in John3:16 cannot mean every individual without exception. Knowing this I can study to get a good idea of what John did mean by the word "world" here.

If "world" doesn't mean world, what does "whosoever" mean?
Does "whosoever" NOT mean any individual without exception?
Or are you a Calvinist?

 

[Arthur81]

If "world" doesn't mean world, what does "whosoever" mean?
Does "whosoever" NOT mean any individual without exception?
Or are you a Calvinist?

for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (John 3:16 YLT)

‘God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 REB)

YLT - "that every one who is believing" not every one who ever lived or will live
REB - "that everyone who has faith" not everyone who ever lived or will live

It is a statement of fact about everyone who has faith or is believing.

 

[St. SteVen]

for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (John 3:16 YLT)

‘God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 REB)

YLT - "that every one who is believing" not every one who ever lived or will live
REB - "that everyone who has faith" not everyone who ever lived or will live

It is a statement of fact about everyone who has faith or is believing.

I disagree.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm not sure about "top or bottom", but I know there are the "elect" and there are the "reprobate". God loves and cares for those he chose, the elect. Those for whom he died to provide their salvation.

Not sure about "top or bottom"?
Is there anything stated here below that you disagree with? (top of the OP)


"Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at."

 

[Arthur81]

Not really-a good dictionary will tell you otherwise.


3) "But Esau have I hated;” (ton de Esau emisesa) yet, the one (son) Esau I hated;" or loved to a less degree, in his purpose for his life and service, and that of the Edomites, his offspring nation; Mal_1:3 describes this idea. See also Jer_49:17-18; Jer_50:12-13; Jer_51:37, such was decreed against Chaldee, Babylon, and Edom; Deu_7:6-11. This aspect of God's sovereign power and choice does not conflict with Joh_3:16.
That "love and hate" are often used as comparative or relative terms is evident in their usage where it is recorded that Jacob "hated" Leah and that he "loved Rachel the more," Gen_29:30; Gen_29:32-33. This idea is also used in the New Testament, Mat_10:37, Joh_12:25.

THE MYSTERY OF GOD'S LOVE

A gentleman who thought Christianity was merely a heap of puzzling problems said to an old minister, "That is a very strange statement, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated,' "Very strange," replied the minister, but what is it that you see most strange about it?" "Oh, that part of course about hating Esau." 'Well, sir," said the minister, "how wonderfully are we made and how differently constituted. The strangest part of all to me is that He could ever have loved Jacob. There is no mystery so glorious as the mystery of God's love."
-N. T. Anecdotes

I have many translations on software and on my bookshelf. I've not found one that in Rom. 9:13 reads "loved less".


"And as that love towards Jacob must be conceived of as completely independent of foreseen virtues (Rom 9:11), so also this hatred towards Esau as completely independent of foreseen sins (in opposition to the Greek Fathers and Jerome on Malachi 1). Both were founded solely on the free elective determination of God; with whom, in the necessary connection of that plan which He had freely adopted for the process of theocratic development, the hatred and rejection of Esau were presupposed through their opposite, namely, the free love and election of Jacob to be the vehicle of the theocracy and its privileges, as the reverse side of this love and choice, which the history of Edom brought into actual relief." Heinrich Meyer, 19th Century Lutheran, not a Calvinist

It is true, in Hebrew fashion Jesus makes hyperbolic use of the word hate in the following -

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26 KJV)

When I read Paul's use of the word elsewhere, I can see no reason to think he is using G3404/hate in hyperbole in Rom. 9:13 - The other uses by Paul -

For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. (Rom 7:15 ASV)

for no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as Christ also the church; (Eph 5:29 ASV)

For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. (Titus 3:3 ASV)

If Paul wrote Hebrews we can add -

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:9 ASV)

I do not find that "loved less" will fit Paul's other uses of the word and see no reason to see it in Rom. 9:13 I will stay with the biblical usage over a dictionary, especially when the translations all seem to agree it is "hate"!

 

[Arthur81]

Not sure about "top or bottom"?
Is there anything stated here below that you disagree with? (top of the OP)


"Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at."

We are only accepted in the beloved Son of God.

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Eph 1:6 KJV)

We are "in Christ" by God's act -

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’" (1Cor 1:30-31 REB)

There was certainly NOTHING in me making me acceptable to God outside of Jesus Christ.

 

[Arthur81]

I disagree.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 again, letting the Jews who made up the early church, know God loved the whole world, which included the Gentiles.

The use of "all" is like the word "world", it is a general term that must be viewed in context. It means "all" of those under consideration. Do the following uses of "all" have no limitations?

"But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed." (Mark 11:32 KJV) It was not "all men" without restriction. Someone decapitated him.

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that." (1Cor 7:7 KJV) If "all men" here was not restricted, the human race would end

 

[St. SteVen]

We are "in Christ" by God's act -

Agreed. But what happened to this?

It is a statement of fact about everyone who has faith or is believing.

Who's act is this?

 

[St. SteVen]

1 John 2:2 again, letting the Jews who made up the early church, know God loved the whole world, which included the Gentiles.

That would include everyone then, without exception, right?
If you aren't a Jew, you are a gentile. Who are we missing here?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Wick Stick]

Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?​

The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.

His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.

He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.

Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.

There is a line down the center of this post, Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?

As I see it, God has provided salvation only for one group - Israel. But He has provided the means for anyone to become adopted in that group. The opportunity is there for the taking. Not everyone will take it.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[St. SteVen]

"But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed." (Mark 11:32 KJV) It was not "all men" without restriction. Someone decapitated him.

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that." (1Cor 7:7 KJV) If "all men" here was not restricted, the human race would end

So, you began with "world" doesn't mean world.
Now you have moved on to "all" doesn't mean all?
Terrific. Any other common words you would like to UNdefine for us? (don't bother)

 

[St. SteVen]

As I see it, God has provided salvation only for one group - Israel. But He has provided the means for anyone to become adopted in that group. The opportunity is there for the taking. Not everyone will take it.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

So the will of humankind is sovereign to God's will?

The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Wick Stick]

So the will of humankind is sovereign to God's will?

The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman...

www.christianityboard.com

I see it like this...

(a) God has sovereignly ordained that one man (Abraham) and his descendants shall be saved. (Rom 11:26)
(b) As part of that covenant, God has declared that Abraham shall be made a "father of Gentiles." (Gen 17:4)

If some Gentiles go out and join themselves to Israel via adoption, they have upheld (b), and this does not negate (a).

-Jarrod

 

[Arthur81]

Agreed. But what happened to this?

Who's act is this?

It is the act of those to whom God gave the gift of faith. John Wesley the Arminian agrees faith is a gift as he states on Eph. 2:8

"By grace ye are saved through faith - Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God."

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" (Phil 1:29 KJV)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13 KJV)

"And when he wished to cross over to Achaia, the believers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. On his arrival he greatly helped those who through grace had become believers," (Acts 18:27 NRSV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

Saving faith is not inherently within sinful man. It is God's gift to the elect.