Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

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St. SteVen

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The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.

His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.

He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.

Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.

There is a line down the center of this post, Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?
 
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Arthur81

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I'm not sure about "top or bottom", but I know there are the "elect" and there are the "reprobate". God loves and cares for those he chose, the elect. Those for whom he died to provide their salvation.
 
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Stumpmaster

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The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.

His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.

He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.

Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.

There is a line down the center of this post, Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?
ChatQuote:

The character of God, as described in His Word, is multifaceted and awe-inspiring. Here are a couple of aspects that highlight His nature:
  1. Infinite: God is self-existing and without origin1. He is beyond human comprehension, and our words fall short in describing His greatness1. The name Jehovah, used extensively in the Bible, signifies God’s self-existence and sovereignty1.
  2. Loving and Good: God’s love extends to all generations, and His kindness knows no bounds2. He is righteous, holy, just, and watches over His creation with constant awareness and care2.
These are just a glimpse of the many attributes of God described in His Word. Exploring the Bible further will reveal more about our Creator, Provider, Protector, Great Shepherd, Righteous Judge, and Friend3.
Please note that these descriptions are not exhaustive, as God’s character is beyond complete human comprehension.
 

St. SteVen

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What about everyone else? Those not the Elect?
Yup, that is the question few want to consider.
The flip side to the predestination coin. If God elected some to life, then he elected everyone else to destruction.
At least according to mainline Christianity. There is a better view.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
 

Ritajanice

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This is how much God Loves us, Praise His Holy Name!!.

He did this out of Love he could quite easily have left us in our sin, he doesn’t need us.but, we sure NEED HIM, to lead and guide us into his ways , in Jesus Name, Amen!!......

John 3:16

King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

Arthur81

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God's will of decree includes his election(predestination) of persons for salvation
"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV)
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)
"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)
"Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure" (Eph 1:4-5 REB)
"It is he who has brought us salvation and called us to a dedicated life, not for any merit of ours but for his own purpose and of his own grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2Tim 1:9 REB)

God's will of decree also includes his awful reprobation of persons, as hard as that seems to us
"The LORD hath made every thing for its own end: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov 16:4 ERV)
"For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that he might utterly destroy them, that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses." (Josh 11:20 ERV)
"...and 'A stone that makes them stumble, and a rock that makes them fall.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." (1Pet 2:8 NRSV)
"So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses." (Rom 9:18 NRSV)
"These men are like brute beasts, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They pour abuse upon things they do not understand; they will perish like the beasts," (2Pet 2:12 REB)

I can only embrace what the word of God clearly states, whether mankind approves of it or not!
 
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Ritajanice

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"It is he who has brought us salvation and called us to a dedicated life, not for any merit of ours but for his own purpose and of his own grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2Tim 1:9 REB)
This really touched my heart, I thank God every day for birthing me in his Holy Spirit....the biggest Honour of my life....I thank him for drawing me to Christ...I see it past...I see everything he was doing in my life..to draw me to his Son.

There is none as clever as our God....I trust him like no other!!...Praise You Lord....my testimony and belief!
 

Behold

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God's will of decree also includes his awful reprobation of persons, as hard as that seems to us

God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist
The Holy Spirit, is not a Calvinist
Paul The Apostle, is not a Calvinist.

John Calvinism, is often Satanic, and its a mind blindness, that infects its victims.
 
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Ritajanice

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God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist
The Holy Spirit, is not a Calvinist
Paul The Apostle, is not a Calvinist.

John Calvinism, is often Satanic, and its a mind blindness, that infects its victims.
So, why is the reprobates in the Bible Behold?

I posted scripture above, maybe you can explain what God means by it?...

Or is this another topic, I don’t want to take SS topic off course?
 

ChristisGod

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I'm not sure about "top or bottom", but I know there are the "elect" and there are the "reprobate". God loves and cares for those he chose, the elect. Those for whom he died to provide their salvation.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.



In the past two decades have witnessed a resurgence of Calvinism among American evangelicals. This resurgence is especially evident within the Southern Baptist Convention, which historically has been and still is divided over the issue. However, it has also made its presence felt in Pentecostal denominations such as the Assemblies of God, which do not have historic ties to Calvinism.


By Calvinism, I mean specifically the doctrine of salvation that is commonly explained by means of the acronym, TULIP:

  • T = Total depravity
  • U = Unconditional election
  • L = Limited atonement
  • I = Irresistible grace
  • P = Perseverance of the saints

In the seventeenth century, Jacob Arminius—a Dutch Reformed theologian—set forth a different understanding of salvation that has been called Arminianism after him. It is sometimes explained by means of the acronym, FACTS:

  • F = Freed by grace to believe
  • A = Atonement for all
  • C = Conditional election
  • T = Total depravity
  • S = Security in Christ

In Does God Love Everyone? Jerry L. Walls—an evangelical philosopher—outlines an argument against Calvinism and for Arminianism. Its strength is that it focuses on the central point of the disagreement between them. Walls writes:


The deepest issue that divides Arminians and Calvinists is not the sovereignty of God, predestination, or the authority of the Bible. The deepest difference pertains to how we understand the character of God. Is God good in the sense that he deeply and sincerely loves all people?


According to Walls, the answer of Arminianism is “Yes.” The answer of Calvinism is “No.” As Calvinist author Arthur W. Pink put it in The Sovereignty of God: “When we say that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love, we mean that He loves whom he chooses. God does not love everybody…” Walls argues that Pink’s statement is characteristic of Calvinism, even if it’s stated with a bluntness uncharacteristic of most Calvinists.

A god who can save all but chooses not to is not the God whom the Bible reveals.


To see why this is so, consider the argument Walls makes:

  1. God truly loves all persons.
  2. Not all persons will be saved.
  3. Truly to love someone is to desire their well-being and to promote their true flourishing as much as you properly can.
  4. The well-being and true flourishing of all persons is to be found in a right relationship with God, a saving relationship in which we love and obey him.
  5. God could give all persons “irresistible grace” and thereby determine all persons to freely accept a right relationship with himself and be saved.
  6. Therefore, all persons will be saved.

Clearly, this set of propositions contains a contradiction between 2 and 6. Both Calvinists and Arminians affirm 2, however. They’re not universalists, in other words. Similarly, both affirm 4.


So, how do they resolve the contradiction? Arminians do so by denying 5. They deny, in other words, that grace is irresistible.


Irresistible grace is part and parcel of Calvinism, however. It’s the I in TULIP. That means Calvinists must deny either 1 or 3. That is, they must deny either that “God truly loves all persons” or that “Truly to love someone is to desire their well-being and to promote their true flourishing as much as you properly can.” As noted above, Arthur W. Pink clearly denied 1. (Walls quotes Calvin himself to similar effect.)


Contemporary Calvinists rarely deny 1, however. Instead, they affirm that God truly loves all persons. For example, D. A. Carson affirms that God loves everyone in the sense that He exercises “providential love over all that he has made” and adopts a “salvific stance toward his fallen world.” However, Carson denies that God gives everyone the “particular, effective, selecting love toward his elect.” It’s hard to square this “love” for “all persons” with the definition of love in 3. A God who could but chooses not to bestow “particular, effective, selecting love” on everyone does not “truly” love them because He does not seek their eternal “well-being” and “true flourishing.”


Walls suggests one further wrinkle when he discusses John Piper, probably the best known Baptist Calvinist. Walls argues that Piper denies 5, not by ditching “irresistible grace” but by suggesting that God has a “greater value” than salvation. Such as what? Piper writes, “The answer the Reformed give is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God’s glory in wrath and mercy (Rom. 9:21–23) and the humbling of man so he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Cor. 1:29).” Because of this “greater value,” it seems that Piper denies God “could give all persons ‘irresistible grace’ [to be saved].” Some evidently must be condemned for God’s glory.

In order to maintain God’s sovereignty in election then, or to promote God’s glory, Calvinism denies that God loves everyone in the truest sense. Like Walls, I find this denial difficult to swallow. A god who can save all but chooses not to is not the God whom the Bible reveals, a God who is love (1 John 4:8).

Walls’ book is a brief outline of a much larger argument. Those looking for a more detailed argument should pick up his Why I Am Not a Calvinist, coauthored with Joseph R. Dongell. But that argument, even in outline form here, is difficult to rebut, as far as I am concerned.

Book Reviewed: Jerry L. Walls, Does God Love Everyone? The Heart of What Is Wrong with Calvinism (Eugene, OR: Cascade, 2016).

Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Definition: to hate
Usage: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

BDAG.

So my original post quoting Strongs/Thayers still stands.

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 653.

John says hate is indifference with a brother below

1 John 3
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.



BDAG.

② to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 (Mal 1:2f). Perh. 2 Cl 6:6 (s. 1b). (JDenney, The Word ‘Hate’ in Lk 14:26: ET 21, 1910, 41f; WBleibtreu, Paradoxe Aussprüche Jesu: Theol. Arbeiten aus d. wissensch. Prediger-Verein d. Rheinprovinz, new ser. 20, 24, 15–35; RSockman, The Paradoxes of J. ’36).—ACarr, The Mng. of ‘Hatred’ in the NT: Exp. 6th ser., 12, 1905, 153–60.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 653.


Well there are some obvious principles if one can look past their theological bias.

1- God loves sinners, God loves the world meaning all people, everyone.
2- So when its says God hates we must examine what/who is the recipient of the hate and why. Why God would detest something/someone vs love less.
3- We use the lexicons to help us determine how the word is being used in various contexts/passages.
4- We use other scriptures to compare the word/verse with to get an idea how its used
5- We for example can learn about the " idioms" from the original people, places and times
6- With hate we learn it is an Jewish idiom being used in conjunction with love as a comparison.

hope this helps !!!
 

Behold

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So, why is the reprobates in the Bible Behold?

I posted scripture above, maybe you can explain what God means by it?...

Or is this another topic, I don’t want to take ST topic off course?

Calvin teaches that man is so sinful, so depraved..... that he can't come to God, ... he can't choose to believe.... .So, Calvin teaches that God has already chosen some to believe, instead, and only some., and that is Satanic theology, as it denies that the Cross of Christ is given to ALL.... John 3:16

So, that completely denies, "Faith comes by Hearing".
That completely denies that "All that Believe shall be saved".

Let me show you how untrue that is.....just looking at it from LOGIC and Common sense.

A.) If man is too depraved to come to God by FAITH...... then why does God call Preachers to preach to the Lost?

Why did Paul and the rest who are in the ministry, called to be so, "preaching the Cross"... to the world?

"Go into all the WORLD".......not... "go unto only the elect".

See that nonsense?

Why did God say for us to "go into all the world"... if they can't respond to the the message of the Cross, and come to it, as John Calvinism teaches.

See, we dont lead the ELECT to the Cross, we lead the LOST to the Cross., and that is everyone.

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"... not.... "Jesus came into the world to save the elect, ONLY"., as John Calvinism teaches.


So, there are reprobates., but not all are reprobates.
A reprobate is one who has gone beyond the call of God. They are "seared in their conscious"... to the point that the Holy Spirit, can't reach their heart of faith.
They literally believe that evil is "ok". They no longer have the capacity of a CONSCIENCE to understand "wrong vs right" as morality.

Most people are not that at all.
Most people are just LOST... confused.... and Jesus came to give us ALL His Salvation.
He came to take us ALL Home to God, through our Faith, = by His Sacrifice on the Cross.
 

Arthur81

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I've always found it interesting that it is the religious people who are determined to reject the absolute sovereignty of God over all, including a person's eternal salvation.

The seeking and/or hurting person needing a life changing encounter with one who has the power to heal/help him; does not concern himself with such theological questions. The hurting seeker has good hope he is beign "drawn by the Father"! He is not concerned about theology.

"No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44 REB)

It is those self-important individuals who think God can't get people "born again" without them, who are so adamant about their key role in salvation. Armianism is possibly an arrogant pride in how they wish to take credit for salvation. That is what they do by denying the election of God's free grace and interjecting man's will! You hear them boasting so often about how many came forward making "decisions for Christ" in their ministry. "Decisional regeneration", now that's a novel idea!

I don't care if it is nicknamed after Calvin, Luther or Augustine; if it is clearly stated in the Holy Bible, I'll believe it.
 
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Arthur81

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Calvin teaches that man is so sinful, so depraved..... that he can't come to God, ... he can't choose to believe.... .So, Calvin teaches that God has already chosen some to believe, instead, and only some., and that is Satanic theology, as it denies that the Cross of Christ is given to ALL.... John 3:16

So, that completely denies, "Faith comes by Hearing".
That completely denies that "All that Believe shall be saved".

Let me show you how untrue that is.....just looking at it from LOGIC and Common sense.

A.) If man is too depraved to come to God by FAITH...... then why does God call Preachers to preach to the Lost?

Why did Paul and the rest who are in the ministry, called to be so, "preaching the Cross"... to the world?

"Go into all the WORLD".......not... "go unto only the elect".

See that nonsense?

Why did God say for us to "go into all the world"... if they can't respond to the the message of the Cross, and come to it, as John Calvinism teaches.

See, we dont lead the ELECT to the Cross, we lead the LOST to the Cross., and that is everyone.

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"... not.... "Jesus came into the world to save the elect, ONLY"., as John Calvinism teaches.


So, there are reprobates., but not all are reprobates.
A reprobate is one who has gone beyond the call of God. They are "seared in their conscious"... to the point that the Holy Spirit, can't reach their heart of faith.
They literally believe that evil is "ok". They no longer have the capacity of a CONSCIENCE to understand "wrong vs right" as morality.

Most people are not that at all.
Most people are just LOST... confused.... and Jesus came to give us ALL His Salvation.
He came to take us ALL Home to God, through our Faith, = by His Sacrifice on the Cross.

In writing "the Cross of Christ is given to ALL.... John 3:16", why not prove your point?? The word "world" in both English and the Greek kosmos have about 8 meanings each. Now, please illustrate and prove that "world" in Joh 3:16 means every individual that lives, has ever lived or will ever live. You make such a claim, now prove it!
 

Behold

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In writing "the Cross of Christ is given to ALL.... John 3:16", You make such a claim, now prove it!

You are the victim of "too many translations, that all contradict""", so now you have no idea what to believe, anymore".

The Devil has a lot of "bibles" and a lot of "church fathers" in his Ministry.
You dont know that.
Time you learned... . @Arthur81

Listen,...

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"

"all"... = "For God so loved the WORLD"... "that He Gave" Jesus.

"For as many as BELIEVE, God gives to them the power to become a son of God".


Not, As many as God called the elect., He gave the power.

Look at 2nd Corinthians 5:19 and John 3:17

Both teach that God was in Christ, in this world not counting sin against .... ALL... everyone.... Men.

So, Calvin, was Theologically Insane.. And His "limited atonement", that is Cross Denying Satanism, is a mind infecting cult theology.

Paul teaches us, that this type of LIAR is so clever, so evil that he can "BEWITCH" you.

This is why people who are obsessed with John Calvinism, will define themselves like this..

Notice....

I can walk up to one of these people on the Street, and say...."hello, are you a CHRISTian".

And they will say.... 100% of the time... "Yes, Im a CALVINIST".


See that?
But i didnt ask them if they were a Calvinist, .. and because they are so under the mind blindness that is this man's teaching, they connect Calvinism = as "Christianity itself.
That's a big problem for them, as God does not see it that way, @Arthur81 .

Believe it.
 
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Ritajanice

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It is those self-important individuals who think God can't get people "born again" without them, who are so adamant about their key role in salvation. Armianism is possibly an arrogant pride in how they wish to take credit for salvation. That is what they do by denying the election of God's free grace and interjecting man's will! You hear them boasting so often about how many came forward making "decisions for Christ" in their ministry. "Decisional regeneration", now that's a novel idea!

I don't care if it is nicknamed after Calvin, Luther or Augustine; if it is clearly stated in the Holy Bible, I'll believe it.
Of course God births us in the Spirit....how can man do that, they can’t, it’s a supernatural act of God.....I played no part in being birthed in the Spirit.....he chose me, I did NOT choose to be birthed in the Spirit.

God even brought me to believe in Jesus, I’m not saying he believed for me..but, he certainly planted Jesus into my mind....I also don’t care what others think ...this is my testimony 100% and it will NEVER change.....I received God’s word straight to my heart...

I don’t believe God needs mans cooperation to birth them in the Spirit...that’s my own belief and opinion and again it will never change..

I do believe God needs man’s cooperation to do his will....which is the role of the Holy Spirit to get Gods children to fully surrender to the will of God....as we have a “ Living “ relationship with God through the Holy Spirit....
 
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Arthur81

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You are the victim of "too many translations, that all contradict""", so now you have no idea what to believe, anymore".

The Devil has a lot of "bibles" and a lot of "church fathers" in his Ministry.
You dont know that.
Time you learned... . @Arthur81

Listen,...

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"

"all"... = "For God so loved the WORLD"... "that He Gave" Jesus.

"For as many as BELIEVE, God gives to them the power to become a son of God".


Not, As many as God called the elect., He gave the power.

Look at 2nd Corinthians 5:19 and John 3:17

Both teach that God was in Christ, in this world not counting sin against .... ALL... everyone.... Men.

So, Calvin, was Theologically Insane.. And His "limited atonement", that is Cross Denying Satanism, is a mind infecting cult theology.

Paul teaches us, that this type of LIAR is so clever, so evil that he can "BEWITCH" you.

This is why people who are obsessed with John Calvinism, will define themselves like this..

Notice....

I can walk up to one of these people on the Street, and say...."hello, are you a CHRISTian".

And they will say.... 100% of the time... "Yes, Im a CALVINIST".


See that?
But i didnt ask them if they were a Calvinist, .. and because they are so under the mind blindness that is this man's teaching, they connect Calvinism = as "Christianity itself.
That's a big problem for them, as God does not see it that way, @Arthur81 .

Believe it.
We are still awaiting your exegesis of John 3:16 showing why "world" means every man in every age without exception? You are merely "spoof texting" trying to get around what you obviously are not capable of giving us. Spoof Texting is being ignorant of the meaning of individual verses, and then trying to tie a collection of them together as if that actually proves anything.