Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Ritajanice]

False. The wages of sin is still death. Your scheme has the wages of sin being life. Also, the soul that sins, it shall die. You would twist that to mean...the soul that sins it will live...(if you believe in a human religious scheme that overturns the truth)

Romans 6

King James Version

​

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

The spirit of Behold and EG is a religious spirit. Without having discernment you are caught in that same web.

What I teach is from the Holy Spirit that you claim to be born from??? Very strange indeed.

I have God given discernment my dear....that’s why I don’t follow you!...LOL.

One of the spiritual gifts God gives the Church is discernment(1 Corinthians 12:10). The Church needs people who are able to discern error since we're called upon to “test the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Deemed righteous is not the same as being MADE righteous. You are confusing the two...and obscuring any notion of understanding.

Your right.

a guilty person who is deemed righteous having his guilt removed by redemption.. is deemed righteous.

it does not mean they are in actuality righteous..

You are missing the scale here if you think that you can claim whatever righteousness is mentioned in the bible as belonging to you based on your say so. That would be EXTREMELY arrogant to presume that.

I just claim what God says about me, and what God says he will or has done for me.

Thats why my trust is in him, not myself..

when will you stop trusting self. and give it to God?

God is righteous. The righteousness of God is revealed through the FAITHFULNESS of Christ. There is no "in" in the Greek to signify that a religious scheme is being offered.

Who believes Jesus. Not believes IN Jesus. Again there is no "IN" in the Greek. That is an invention of the creators of a religion that is very loosely based on the bible.

The people of Israel looked up to the serpent. that faith caused them to be saved.

Thats what Jesus said we must do.

You can deny it all you want.. But people look to the cross because they trust it..

Those who do nto trust it will look to other things. namely their works.

False. God judges us...not Himself.

he judged his son on the cross for our salvation.

If he is going to judge you and me based on what we do. we are both headed to hell where we belong

Yes. Faith and faithfulness are required FROM US...for God to impute or see that we are righteous.

There is not a time on this earth God will see you personally as righteous..

Stop looking at self and thin king you are righteous when you are not

That is speaking of a higher justification...for the saint.

Higher justification.. another religious term.

we are either justified or we are guilty. there is no other option

False. The wages of sin is still death. Your scheme has the wages of sin being life. Also, the soul that sins, it shall die. You would twist that to mean...the soul that sins it will live...(if you believe in a human religious scheme that overturns the truth)

For those who are not saved, your correct.

for those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, Just like the symbol of the people of Israel according to the law on the day of atonement when the high priest entered the holy place and sacrificed the animals., .. there sin is forgiven.

False. Being born again is by the free will of God. We don't choose to be born into this world, And we certainly don't choose to be born again by the Spirit. It is by the will of God alone.

lol. Thats not what Jesus said

I will go with What Jesus said.. ok?

Without understand what justification is, there is no clue about anything concerning salvation.

thats why you have no clue about anything concerning salvation.. Because you do not understand the basic things of the gospel (justification, born again etc etc...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The spirit of Behold and EG is a religious spirit. Without having discernment you are caught in that same web.

What I teach is from the Holy Spirit that you claim to be born from??? Very strange indeed.

if you taught what the HS said. you would teach the bible

it is quite evident.. that is not the case

 

[Episkopos]

Your right.

a guilty person who is deemed righteous having his guilt removed by redemption.. is deemed righteous.

it does not mean they are in actuality righteous..

A pretend righteousness comes from a pretend god.

I just claim what God says about me, and what God says he will or has done for me.

You have yet to encounter the real God...you have no idea what God says about you.

Thats why my trust is in him, not myself..

In your idea of Him...a make-believe perspective. The Pharisees also thought that Moses would be giving them high-fives...rather than condemn them as Jesus said. A big "oops" there.

when will you stop trusting self. and give it to God?

That is what you are doing...trusting that your opinions match God's.

The people of Israel looked up to the serpent. that faith caused them to be saved.

Thats what Jesus said we must do.

Those people died in the wilderness after a TEMPORARY healing. You are making a temporary healing to mean an eternal justification. You should be looking at what Joshua and Caleb did...not the masses of people who perished. We are to look to Jesus in all areas of our lives...including our temporary situations.

You can deny it all you want.. But people look to the cross because they trust it..

Trust "it" is right. But not trust in an actual risen Christ. The REAL Person.

Those who do nto trust it will look to other things. namely their works.

Trust "it" again. false religion.

he judged his son on the cross for our salvation.

God was IN Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. God didn't judge His Son...and certainly not as a sinner. Your scheme is a fantasy.

If he is going to judge you and me based on what we do. we are both headed to hell where we belong

false. True grace empowers people to walk as Jesus walked. There are REWARDS for that.

There is not a time on this earth God will see you personally as righteous..

False. read the bible. The Publican and the Pharisee.

Stop looking at self and thin king you are righteous when you are not

I don't think I'm righteous...you do.

Higher justification.. another religious term.

A truth that is far above your religious understanding.

we are either justified or we are guilty. there is no other option

On what level?

For those who are not saved, your correct.

for those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, Just like the symbol of the people of Israel according to the law on the day of atonement when the high priest entered the holy place and sacrificed the animals., .. there sin is forgiven.

Not just forgiven...atoned for. This was a marker until Jesus Christ could actually cleanse people from their sins...

lol. Thats not what Jesus said

I will go with What Jesus said.. ok?

Have you even read the bible?

thats why you have no clue about anything concerning salvation.. Because you do not understand the basic things of the gospel (justification, born again etc etc...

LOL. You are way over your head.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The greek word has a judical meaning. To be justified is to be declared in right standing. or innocent. It also means to be made righteous.

Correct. This is another connotation of the word. In a judicial setting, "dikaios" is declared if both parties agree on fair compensation.

We are guilty, the penalty is death.. When we are said to be justified. it means our guilt is removed. we are made righteous.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "righteous." Paul isn't suggesting that we are made "morally good" or that God accounts "faith in Christ" as "morally good." Rather, Paul is saying that God considers us "approved" or "right with him." We might say, "pardoned."
say that God

Justification is based on Gods righteousness (not ours)

I would say that justification is based on God's grace. If you like, in our parlance, "justification by faith" is like our system of arbitration. It's a matter of what the offended person is willing to accept in order to be satisfied.

Suppose a man kills another man's cow. Justice requires that the first man replace the cow he killed -- a cow for a cow. If the man killed the cow out of malice, the second man may require additional compensation to settle accounts. Now suppose it was an accident and the first man is poor and unable to pay for an entire cow. The judge will ask the second man if there might be some other way to resolve the situation. The second man will propose another way to settle the issue. He might, for instance, ask the first man to help him build a new fence for his cattle. If the first man agrees then the judge will render the verdict "dikaios" -- "justified." In other words, both parties agree to a course of action that will resolve the situation and the judge declares that the situation has been resolved.

This is close to the way that Paul uses the term "justified" when he talks about being "justified by faith." It's like a hypothetical judge is asking God, "What will it take for you to be satisfied?" God tells the judge that he will be satisfied if the offender repents and believes in his son Jesus. So then if the offender repents and believes in his son Jesus, the judge will render the verdict "dikaios" -- "justified"

Justification is given only to those who have faith (see also John 3)

Agreed.

Justification was bought with a price. that price of redemption being the blood of Christ.

Actually, I don't think our justification was bought with a price at least not directly. Previously, I mentioned motive, whereby the first man killed the second man's cow out of malice. This act represents enmity between the two men. Undoubtedly the second man will want more than the replacement of his cow. He will also want some signal of amity. The situation can't be resolved until both parties agree to reconcile.

The cross of Christ answers to the question, "What will it take to make peace with God?" My malice and enmity with God must be resolved before he will be willing to grant me justification by faith. I need to make peace with God. Paul argues that Jesus Christ made peace with God on the cross and that God accepts all those who trust in the cross as the means of reconciliation. Jesus and God worked that out while we were still his enemies. But now that we are his friends, Paul says, God poured out his spirit into our hearts, which guarantees that we will receive our glorification.

 

[Ritajanice]

You have yet to encounter the real God...you have no idea what God says about you.

Now, you tell us how you encounter the real God please?

King James Bible
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.




We encounter God through the Holy Spirit...that how we know he exists..it comes via the Spirit...when we become Born Again....for without that supernatural/ spiritual revelation..we wouldn’t know he exists....as one receives him through the Spirit...there is no other way.





Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV​

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Yup!!!....Praise God all day long as @amigo de christo ....says!!.....and get in them Bibles, including me...LOL.

 

[Episkopos]

Now, you tell us how you encounter the real God please?

Jesus said to ask, seek and knock. Praying with fasting, supplicating the Lord with the whole heart. This is testified to by saints throughout the centuries...and it is also encouraged by the Lord Himself.

Results will vary, especially considering the instability of a divided mind and of a modern culture that can't concentrate on anything for more than a minute or so.

King James Bible
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.




We encounter God through the Holy Spirit...that how we know he exists..it comes via the Spirit...when we become Born Again....for without that supernatural/ spiritual revelation..we wouldn’t know he exists....as one receives him through the Spirit...there is no other way.





Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why do you follow men when you could be actually following Christ?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Attention Prayer Warriors, my daughter just rushed my SIL to ER w/CP.
please help me pray.
many thx

 

[Behold]

False. Only those who enter INTO Christ partake of righteousness on the level of God..in holiness.

Wrong again.

Here is how it works...

Before God can take a person, by spiritual birth, into Himself, Spiritually, as BORN AGAIN..

The person's sin has to be dealt with....all of it...... and they have to be given God's Righteousness, as "The Gift of Righteousness"..

Both of those have to happen, as otherwise God would be joining Himself to an unrighteous sinner, as you are teaching which of course is a theological deception.

 

[Behold]

Who believes Jesus. Not believes IN Jesus. Again there is no "IN" in the Greek.

There is nothing more FAKE then a person who can't read Greek, who comes to a forum and then tries to be a Greek instructor, correcting the bible.
Pathetic.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus said to ask, seek and knock. Praying with fasting, supplicating the Lord with the whole heart. This is testified to by saints throughout the centuries...and it is also encouraged by the Lord Himself.

Results will vary, especially considering the instability of a divided mind and of a modern culture that can't concentrate on anything for more than a minute or so.

Jesus said you must be “ Born Again”.....you are not one of his, if you aren’t.

Why aren’t you reading my posts...?...why do I follow men?

Why do you follow men when you could be actually following Christ?

 

[Ritajanice]

Attention Prayer Warriors, my daughter just rushed my SIL to ER w/CP.
please help me pray.
many thx

Praying here...please keep us informed...

 

[Behold]

Yes. Faith and faithfulness are required FROM US...for God to impute or see that we are righteous.

What a bunch of junk theology you keep posting..
Its just NT rejection, constantly posted by you.

Listen, no one comes to Christ as "faithful".....
We come to Christ as a SINNER.....

"Jesus came in to the world to save SINNERS".

So, for you to teach that we are to be FAITHFUL FIRST......, when we are "all have sinned" our entire lives......so that God will give us Salvation- Righteousness...................

Your Theology is just so Cross denying and Bizarre.

 

[Behold]

Attention Prayer Warriors, my daughter just rushed my SIL to ER w/CP.
please help me pray.
many thx

Thank you Father for your mercy and your grace that is the Blood of Jesus, that is the Love of God, that is our healing and our hope.
We count on you God, we believe in you God, in this situation.

In Jesus name, Amen.

 

[Ritajanice]

Please let’s gather our thoughts and pray for L.A.M.B..S I...who has been rushed into ER/ w/ CP.

Praying that the Lord watches over her and guides all the doctors hands into her safe recovery...in Jesus Name..Amen!

 

[Behold]

The spirit of Behold and EG is a religious spirit.

A fool is known by their words......Ecclesiastes 5

And all your words are so Cross offending, when you teach theology.
And the rest, purposely offend the members on this forum.

You would have them as theologically lost in the dark as you are, Mr Luke 11:35.... but God has other plans for them.

Believe it.

 

[Ritajanice]

You would have them as theologically lost in the dark as you are, Mr Luke 11:35.... but God has other plans for them.

I can assure you, he would NEVER in a million years have me theologically lost in the dark...I’m a Born Again...a child of God..

 

[ChristisGod]

Not backslidden...that would mean I am no longer walking in obedience to God. If you can understand the 2 steps into holiness

From sinfulness to righteousness and from righteousness into holiness.

The training of a saint involves going in and out of the Spirit. The whole purpose is to be perfected in Christ. Some lessons are not so easy.




Yes. But my sin took place while I was still in the higher walk. I thought I was doing right...but I was fooled. I trusted a brother...rather than going to the Lord. So I am learning more about righteousness...something that like most modern believers I just assumed I understood.

It's very hard today to understand the context of both righteousness and holiness. I have never found anyone in our time who understands this. So I have to learn the hard way...by experience. If that experience can help others...then so be it.


Yes.


My problem was not so much with the flesh...but with an immature soul...being faced with great challenges...that were outside anything I thought was possible.

I have since learned that God watches us very intently indeed ..and so does the enemy. The higher the walk the more attacks...clever attacks one receives. It's all meant to make the disciple mature.


It's all about perception. When we were kids and our parents were driving us a great distance we tended to always ask...are we there yet? that's part of the problem....I thought I had arrived at a place where I was untouchable.


Amen. In the meantime we are to seek the Lord both for His direct intervention but also through His people.

I for one have no issue with you at all. Be blessed in the Lord. :) And actually I expect to be misunderstood. So there's that. All I expect is some honesty...and a willingness to dialogue concerning the issue at hand...without all the ego and theatrics. :)

so your "higher walk" theory is nothing but a facade full of self righteousness and deception since you were actively sinning.

who would want or desire such trickery ?

yikes.............

The biblical alternative to the gnostics higher walk theory below:

why not just do what the bible says below ????

walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh ( sin )

hope this helps !!!