Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Ronald David Bruno]

Here is truth that will get religious posers in a snit. ;)

When you get a sample of something (like grace at regeneration)...it is free...no cost. When you desire the product to the point where you go to the company that produces the product to BUY it...THEN you become known to the company. Otherwise the free sample does not put you in contact with the company at all. No...samples are handed out liberally.

How many will claim to know God based on the sample? many. But these cannot help but be rejected...I never knew you....because they never went to get the full measure of grace.

Being baptized in the Spirit is a reward for seeking God with a full surrender...just like any subsequent filling by the Spirit.

Is this an Epi parable? No need to make stuff up. This sort of aligns with the Parable of the Sower, Who sows the seed, but don't like the idea of buying a product.
We don't purchase the seed.

 

[Behold]

we still sin as per Rom. 7.

You mean, that you still sin..
Well, thats pretty obvious.

However, the born again, have been "made righteous", and are become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

There is no "sin" found in "Righteousness", and all the born again have received "the Gift of Righteousness".

@Episkopos .... The reason you "sin and confess and repeat" is because you dont understand :

1.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME...... ETERNAL......Sacrifice for sin".


You need to study :

Romans 3:21-28 and 1 John 3:9

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The cross IS the price...that WE pay...to be crucified in His death so we can be brought into new life in Him.

Stop thinking of the cross as only for Jesus. If you ever want to be a disciple of Christ you need to go to the cross yourself.

excuse me sir

Christ hung on the cross. Not me

Stop thinking you can do what Christ did. stop taking credit away from him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

as in...no longer I but Christ doing the sinning???? Distort the reality and live the lie.

Who is living the lie

it is no longer I but Christ in me

Its his righteousness. My righteousness will never add up.

You are not nor will you ever be as holy as you think you are

 

[amigo de christo]

You mean, that you still sin..
Well, thats pretty obvious.

However, the born again, have been "made righteous", and are become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

There is no "sin" found in "Righteousness", and all the born again have received "the Gift of Righteousness".

@Episkopos .... The reason you "sin and confess and repeat" is because you dont understand :

1.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME...... ETERNAL......Sacrifice for sin".


You need to study :

Romans 3:21-28 and 1 John 3:

That man denies the dire need to have to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
Yet claims he is spiritual .
So allow me some parting words . WHEN He has come , AKA THE SPIRIT ,
he will reprove the world of sin , OF SIN because they DO NOT BELIEVE ON ME .
EXactly . The gospel is under attack more than ever in these last days upon earth .

 

[CadyandZoe]

You mean, that you still sin..
Well, thats pretty obvious.

However, the born again, have been "made righteous", and are become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

There is no "sin" found in "Righteousness", and all the born again have received "the Gift of Righteousness".

@Episkopos .... The reason you "sin and confess and repeat" is because you dont understand :

1.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME...... ETERNAL......Sacrifice for sin".


You need to study :

Romans 3:21-28 and 1 John 3:9

I wonder if your statements are based on Romans chapter 3, where Paul talks about the "righteousness of God." You don't seem to understand what Paul meant to say, which is understandable because English doesn't have a word for what Paul means by "dikaiosyne" in some instances.

According to the Blue Letter Bible, the word "dikaiosyne" has at least two connotations:

A. the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting.

Paul teaches us that we are "dikaios:justified" by grace through faith. By this, he means to say that we are approved of or acceptable of God in light of or in view of our faith. We call this "justification." God calls us "justified" or "approved by me", or "acceptable to me" because of our faith.

We don't have a word for this in English, so my Bible teacher invented the word "justifiedness" to mean, "the state of being justified." When we are justified by faith, we live in the state of "having been justified" or "justifiedness." Thus, we can assign two different English words to A. and B. above.

A. "Justifiedness" -- the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. "Righteousness" -- integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting.

With regard to Romans chapter 3, I believe Paul is not talking about "righteousness" but "justifiedness" instead. In order to illustrate this, I will substitute the word "righteousness" with the term "justifiedness" and see what you think.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the Law the justifiedness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the justifiedness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His justifiedness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His justifiedness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

By substituting the term "justifiedness" for the term "righteousness" I believe we have a better understanding of Paul's argument, which is concerned with the way in which man may attain God's approval. If I am right, according to Paul God DOES justify the sinner. He did so in his forbearance, passing over sins previously committed. Even though we all fall short of God's glory (his righteousness) he accounts us "justified" in view of our faith.

Bottom line: Contrary to some theologians, Paul is NOT teaching the doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness." Paul is not saying that the righteousness of Christ is credited to the Christian. Instead, Paul argues that the "justifiedness" of God is credited to the Christian because the Christian believes that God has forgiven his (or her) sins at the cross. Righteousness is imparted to the believer through the process of Sanctification.

 

[Episkopos]

I wonder if your statements are based on Romans chapter 3, where Paul talks about the "righteousness of God." You don't seem to understand what Paul meant to say, which is understandable because English doesn't have a word for what Paul means by "dikaiosyne" in some instances.

Agreed. Behold is positing that God recognizes that we sin by the righteousness of God...making Christ a minister of sin.

According to the Blue Letter Bible, the word "dikaiosyne" has at least two connotations:

A. the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting.

Paul teaches us that we are "dikaios:justified" by grace through faith. By this, he means to say that we are approved of or acceptable of God in light of or in view of our faith. We call this "justification." God calls us "justified" or "approved by me", or "acceptable to me" because of our faith.

We don't have a word for this in English, so my Bible teacher invented the word "justifiedness" to mean, "the state of being justified." When we are justified by faith, we live in the state of "having been justified" or "justifiedness." Thus, we can assign two different English words to A. and B. above.

A. "Justifiedness" -- the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. "Righteousness" -- integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting.

With regard to Romans chapter 3, I believe Paul is not talking about "righteousness" but "justifiedness" instead. In order to illustrate this, I will substitute the word "righteousness" with the term "justifiedness" and see what you think.

In English we tend to think there is a difference between "justice" and "righteousness"...but in other languages...including Greek and Hebrew, these terms are synonymous.

We are justified through faith AND faithfulness. In both Greek and Hebrew both faith AND faithfulness are synonymous. Whether pistis, or emounah.

So then the faith OF Christ can mean the faithfulness of Christ towards the righteous...OR/AND the faith OF Christ that the saint walks in. God is a genius, and men have not figured out how His ways work...there is no one formula that takes in the scale of God's ways. God works ALWAYS on two levels. But that fact has escaped even the most brilliant minds (carnal as they may be) up till now.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the Law the justifiedness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the justifiedness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His justifiedness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His justifiedness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

By substituting the term "justifiedness" for the term "righteousness" I believe we have a better understanding of Paul's argument, which is concerned with the way in which man may attain God's approval. If I am right, according to Paul God DOES justify the sinner. He did so in his forbearance, passing over sins previously committed. Even though we all fall short of God's glory (his righteousness) he accounts us "justified" in view of our faith.

No need to make this a salvation scheme...there is no such thing. God does not save the clever...He saves those who repent from dead works and futile thinking...to DO what is right (for the righteous) and be conduits of what is perfect (for the saint).

Bottom line: Contrary to some theologians, Paul is NOT teaching the doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness."

Amen. The whole error that God sees something fictional in us...imputing to us something that is make believe....has led to a fictional salvation and a fictional church.

Paul is not saying that the righteousness of Christ is credited to the Christian.

Unless one is speaking of the individual saint. There is a difference between a covenantal community justification (horizontal) for the righteous and a personal justification based on holiness (vertical) that is enjoyed by the saint.

Instead, Paul argues that the "justifiedness" of God is credited to the Christian because the Christian believes that God has forgiven his (or her) sins at the cross. Righteousness is imparted to the believer through the process of Sanctification.

No. This is where the lack of understanding of God's ways (plural) force a person to make blanket claims that don't work on either the righteous plane or the holy plane.

It's like telling a person what time it is both in London and New York city by using only one compromised/averaged time zone that gets both wrong.

Salvation is based on location, location, location. Get the time wrong, get salvation wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

You mean, that you still sin..
Well, thats pretty obvious.

However, the born again, have been "made righteous", and are become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

False. Only those who enter INTO Christ partake of righteousness on the level of God..in holiness. There is no sinful holiness...or pretend righteousness.

There is no "sin" found in "Righteousness", and all the born again have received "the Gift of Righteousness".

False. A gift of grace is something we are to do something with...not bury it.

@Episkopos .... The reason you "sin and confess and repeat" is because you dont understand :

1.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"

False. You are making up your own verse...not found in the Bible. You only seem to be able to corrupt the biblical narrative...to fit your religious scheme. WE made Jesus to be sin. Not God. Evil men crucified Jesus...not God. God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

The verse in question (2 Cor. 5:21) reads He was made sin for us. Who did that, God? Of course not. Men did that. And that is precisely what you are doing...following the wicked men who thought their own judgments reflected God's.

2.) "Jesus is the ONE TIME...... ETERNAL......Sacrifice for sin".


You need to study :

Romans 3:21-28 and 1 John 3:9

You need to be de-programmed from a very selfish and religious twisting of the bible.

 

[Ritajanice]

Agreed. Behold is positing that God recognizes that we sin by the righteousness of God...making Christ a minister of sin.

I believe we are in the righteousness of Christ....we dont sin by Jesus righteousness...our flesh sins I believe?

If that makes sense...maybe Behold or EG can tell me through the Spirit, if what I say is correct?

 

[Episkopos]

I believe we are in the righteousness of Christ....we dont sin by Jesus righteousness...our flesh sins I believe?

If that makes sense...maybe Behold or EG can tell me through the Spirit, if what I say is correct?

Through a religious spirit? I really don't understand why you trust a schemer like behold or those of his religious bent.

Why do you separate yourself from what you do? That is Gnosticism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I wonder if your statements are based on Romans chapter 3, where Paul talks about the "righteousness of God." You don't seem to understand what Paul meant to say, which is understandable because English doesn't have a word for what Paul means by "dikaiosyne" in some instances.

According to the Blue Letter Bible, the word "dikaiosyne" has at least two connotations:

A. the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting.

Paul teaches us that we are "dikaios:justified" by grace through faith. By this, he means to say that we are approved of or acceptable of God in light of or in view of our faith. We call this "justification." God calls us "justified" or "approved by me", or "acceptable to me" because of our faith.

We don't have a word for this in English, so my Bible teacher invented the word "justifiedness" to mean, "the state of being justified." When we are justified by faith, we live in the state of "having been justified" or "justifiedness." Thus, we can assign two different English words to A. and B. above.

A. "Justifiedness" -- the doctrine concerning how man may attain a state approved of God.

B. "Righteousness" -- integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting.

With regard to Romans chapter 3, I believe Paul is not talking about "righteousness" but "justifiedness" instead. In order to illustrate this, I will substitute the word "righteousness" with the term "justifiedness" and see what you think.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the Law the justifiedness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the justifiedness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His justifiedness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His justifiedness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

By substituting the term "justifiedness" for the term "righteousness" I believe we have a better understanding of Paul's argument, which is concerned with the way in which man may attain God's approval. If I am right, according to Paul God DOES justify the sinner. He did so in his forbearance, passing over sins previously committed. Even though we all fall short of God's glory (his righteousness) he accounts us "justified" in view of our faith.

Bottom line: Contrary to some theologians, Paul is NOT teaching the doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness." Paul is not saying that the righteousness of Christ is credited to the Christian. Instead, Paul argues that the "justifiedness" of God is credited to the Christian because the Christian believes that God has forgiven his (or her) sins at the cross. Righteousness is imparted to the believer through the process of Sanctification.

The greek word has a judical meaning. To be justified is to be declared in right standing. or innocent. It also means to be made righteous.

We are guilty, the penalty is death.. When we are said to be justified. it means our guilt is removed. we are made righteous. That is what Paul says in Romans 3

Rom 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Justification is based on Gods righteousness (not ours)

Justification is given only to those who have faith (see also John 3)

Justification was bought with a price. that price of redemption being the blood of Christ.

It is this justification that removed the penalty of sin, and allows us to be born again. adopted into Gods family.

without justification. there is death, and in death there is no hope.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe we are in the righteousness of Christ....we dont sin by Jesus righteousness...our flesh sins I believe?

If that makes sense...maybe Behold or EG can tell me through the Spirit, if what I say is correct?

Romans 7 says it all

Paul does nto do what he wants to do. and he does what he does not want to do.

the flesh still sins. it still seeks to serve self. to boast in self. to pump self up. to take for self.

It must be crucified for sin, or selfishness, to dwindle.

however, even then, it will nto be completely broken.

Sadly many people sin and do not evev know they sin, because the church has distorted what sin is..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Through a religious spirit? I really don't understand why you trust a schemer like behold or those of his religious bent.

Why do you separate yourself from what you do? That is Gnosticism.

why do you deny the righteousness of Christ. and try to replace it with yours?

why do you deny the requirment that we must be born again?

 

[amigo de christo]

Romans 7 says it all

Paul does nto do what he wants to do. and he does what he does not want to do.

the flesh still sins. it still seeks to serve self. to boast in self. to pump self up. to take for self.

It must be crucified for sin, or selfishness, to dwindle.

however, even then, it will nto be completely broken.

Sadly many people sin and do not evev know they sin, because the church has distorted what sin is..

Yes it be a die daily battle . Evil will be in the flesh . The sin that sins will rise up and put evil lusts and thoughts into our heads .
WE must crucify it while it be in thought realm . Its like the Flesh wrestles agaisnt the SPIRIT and the SPIRIT against the flesh .
WHICH ONE we gonna heed though be the question . Let us heed the SPIRIT .
And you are right my friend , its very sad many are sinning and not only do they know not that it is sin
HECK they celebrating it . Any guesses on why that might be . Cause sound doctrine is being shut down in churches
and no longer preached . All has been and is being replaced by what many now call love , tolerance , findingcommon ground .
ONLY i can promise us GOD AINT CALLING IT LOVE and it never Came from HIM .
For the LOVE that cometh of GOD dont rejoice in and embrace sin . It dont embrace lies that cannot save a person .
IT does not embrace a lie that says it matters not what path one is on or what religoin they do beleive in
so long as they just love. YEAH CHARITY would never do that cause charity rejoices in TRUTH .
And i do beleive JESUS said , I AM THE TRUTH the WAY and the LIFE . As HE IS truth SO ARE HIS WORDS TRUTH .
And those words will be the judge of all who did deny HIM . Time to preach the glorious Gospel of CHRIST
all things both HE and later the apostels did teach . All sound and holy , pure and lovey doctrine in that bible .

 

[amigo de christo]

why do you deny the righteousness of Christ. and try to replace it with yours?

why do you deny the requirment that we must be born again?

Because HE has denied the word and the words of the LIVING CHRIST JESUS .
IF a man believeth as does this all inclusive delusion
which has replaced the dire NEED to BELEIVE ON CHRIST with a love ideal which COMETH of the world
DO you really think they SEE even though they say WE SEEE , WE SEEE . NO . The blind fold has not been
removed .

 

[Ritajanice]

Through a religious spirit? I really don't understand why you trust a schemer like behold or those of his religious bent.

Why do you separate yourself from what you do? That is Gnosticism.

I have already explained to you..I follow the Holy Spirit..who is in the Spirit of Behold and EG...do you understand that Epi?

And, the same could be said about you...why do people follow you?..

We are taught by the Spirit Epi.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed. Behold is positing that God recognizes that we sin by the righteousness of God...making Christ a minister of sin.


In English we tend to think there is a difference between "justice" and "righteousness"...but in other languages...including Greek and Hebrew, these terms are synonymous.

Nonetheless, Paul uses the word to indicate when God has declared "this person is acceptable to me." This is a different thing that saying, "this person is morally right."

No need to make this a salvation scheme.

I didn't.

Salvation is based on location, location, location. Get the time wrong, get salvation wrong.

I don't know what you mean.

 

[Episkopos]

The greek word has a judical meaning. To be justified is to be declared in right standing. or innocent. It also means to be made righteous.

We are guilty, the penalty is death.. When we are said to be justified. it means our guilt is removed. we are made righteous. That is what Paul says in Romans 3

Deemed righteous is not the same as being MADE righteous. You are confusing the two...and obscuring any notion of understanding.

Rom 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

You are missing the scale here if you think that you can claim whatever righteousness is mentioned in the bible as belonging to you based on your say so. That would be EXTREMELY arrogant to presume that.

God is righteous. The righteousness of God is revealed through the FAITHFULNESS of Christ. There is no "in" in the Greek to signify that a religious scheme is being offered.

For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Who believes Jesus. Not believes IN Jesus. Again there is no "IN" in the Greek. That is an invention of the creators of a religion that is very loosely based on the bible.

Justification is based on Gods righteousness (not ours)

False. God judges us...not Himself.

Justification is given only to those who have faith (see also John 3)

Yes. Faith and faithfulness are required FROM US...for God to impute or see that we are righteous.

Justification was bought with a price. that price of redemption being the blood of Christ.

That is speaking of a higher justification...for the saint.

It is this justification that removed the penalty of sin,

False. The wages of sin is still death. Your scheme has the wages of sin being life. Also, the soul that sins, it shall die. You would twist that to mean...the soul that sins it will live...(if you believe in a human religious scheme that overturns the truth)

and allows us to be born again. adopted into Gods family.

False. Being born again is by the free will of God. We don't choose to be born into this world, And we certainly don't choose to be born again by the Spirit. It is by the will of God alone.

without justification. there is death, and in death there is no hope.

Without understand what justification is, there is no clue about anything concerning salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nonetheless, Paul uses the word to indicate when God has declared "this person is acceptable to me." This is a different thing that saying, "this person is morally right."

I didn't.

I don't know what you mean.

He actually said salvation is based on location?

wow

 

[Episkopos]

I have already explained to you..I follow the Holy Spirit..who is in the Spirit of Behold and EG...do you understand that Epi?

And, the same could be said about you...why do people follow you?..

We are taught by the Spirit Epi.

The spirit of Behold and EG is a religious spirit. Without having discernment you are caught in that same web.

What I teach is from the Holy Spirit that you claim to be born from??? Very strange indeed.