7 PAGAN FESTIVALS WE STILL CELEBRATE TODAY ~ under the guise of Christian celebrations and names.

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Aunty Jane

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Call no man father but your Father in Heaven.
What do Roman Catholics call the Pope? What do they call their priests?

What were first century servants (ministers) of God called?

No high sounding titles were used. The titles used in Christendom today are a designation implying distinction and a certain dignity that accompanies their title, but they also create class distinctions. The clergy and laity class distinctions have been around so long that few question why they even exist in the light of what Jesus taught.

The early Christians were all brothers. They had no class distinctions, and not the slightest trace of a hierarchy.
If class distinctions cropped up, they were condemned and uprooted. Class distinctions were never condoned, as the Bible writer James showed: “have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?"

Since honorary titles create class distinctions, could they really befit Christians?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Because ancient Pagan rites have no semblance of relationship to today's Thanksgiving,Christmas,Easter or Halloween.
You do understand that “Thanksgiving” is an American event not something that is held by Christians universally.....it’s got nothing to do with anything Jesus taught.

Here is an interesting comment from a Church of England spokesman concerning Halloween.......

“Halloween celebrates evil – at best it sends mixed messages about the 'scary' side of life; at worst it glorifies evil things which we should guard children against, at best it sends mixed messages about the ‘scary’ side of life; at worst it glorifies evil things which we should guard children against.
Halloween is unhelpful – we should safeguard children, not tell them to go out in the dark and knock on strange doors.
Halloween trivialises bad things – killing, wounding and hurting people are serious matters, yet dressing up as dead, deformed or wounded people makes them seem something to laugh about.
Halloween is offensive – able-bodied people dressing up to look disfigured or ugly for a laugh is offensive to people who have suffered serious disfigurements.

Halloween is getting worse – it is getting ‘darker’ and ‘nastier’ year on year.”
Halloween

I can’t help but agree with him.....

We have never had it here in Australia, but the commercial system saw an opportunity and they try to push it but it’s a bit of a flop.....really stupid to send kids out these days....you never know who might take advantage of them, especially when candy is involved. Look how many children go missing in the US every year.....it’s scary enough without Halloween.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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I have a comment or two

We are all aware... (we being members of this "Christian" forum) that God, our heavenly Father sent Christ Jesus to earth a very long time ago by means of using a young woman so He could make entry into the world , seemingly as a normal mortal person.... until His true reason for being sent was manifest.

We are all aware ... (we being members of this "Christian" forum) that this person... Our Christ Jesus.... paid an excruciatingly painful death (on Nisan 14... NOT FOR NOW) for those who believe in Him. (Overly simplified... also not for now)

We are all aware ... (we being members of this "Christian" forum) know that christ Jesus did not come for anyone other then , as He said, " "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We are all aware ... (we being members of this "Christian" forum) that had the lost sheep from Israel heeded Messiah Jesus' call we would most likely never have been grafted into their tree. (Yet still for another time)

NOW... knowing this.... no matter what you believe.... no matter what your faith.... no matter how you have been taught... no matter how you worship.... you must realize the above is a thumb nail sketch of Christianity.
(Now is not the time to argue)

So for those who believe there should be no acknowledgement whatsoever about His birth. And for those who believe there should be no acknowledgement whatsoever about His death and especially resurrection....
WHY?

At the very minimum a solemn celebration of His death and resurrection should be held if for no other reason that to say Thank you to Christ Jesus and Thank you to our Lord God, the Father.

Good grief.... Do you remember that the Jews celebrate Passover every single year?

Do you remember this?

Passover, or Pesach in Hebrew, is one of the three major pilgrimage festivals of ancient Israel and commemorates the Exodus from Egypt. Its name comes from the miracle in which God “passed over” the houses of the Israelites during the tenth plague.
Do you know or did you ever that there are three annual feasts that the Lord commanded all of Israel to celebrate in Jerusalem — Passover, Shavuot (Pentecost) and Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). Each feast, regardless when or how it is celebrated, is called the same thing: a “holy convocation.”

Passover is the most well known because it celebrates not just the Exodus.... but being saved from the 10th plague. Do you not see a correlation of our own exodus and salvation from what we would face without Jesus?

How about Shavuot? Shavuot , the “Feast of Weeks,” is celebrated seven weeks after Passover (Pesach). Since the counting of this period (sefirat ha-omer) begins on the second evening of Passover, Shavuot takes place exactly 50 days after the (first) seder. Hence, following the Greek word for “fifty,” Shavuot is also referred to sometimes as Pentecost. Although its origins are to be found in an ancient grain harvest festival, Shavuot has long been identified with the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai.

The giving of the Torah on Mt Sainai for them...

Funny that... or not so... that it would be what the Christians call Pentecost that the Holy Spirit.

If you go back and read the Old Testament, you will discover that Pentecost was one of the Jewish feast days. Only they didn't call it Pentecost. That's the Greek name. The Jews called it the Feast of Harvest or the Feast of Weeks. It is mentioned in five places in the first five books — in Exodus 23, Exodus 24, Leviticus 16, Numbers 28, and Deuteronomy 16.

Pentecost in the Bible
The Coming of the Holy Spirit

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians--we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine." (Acts 2:1-13)
So this is another example of them following god's directive for a celebration.... and then God used the celebration to send the Holy Spirit......

Lets just end this part without a comment on Sukkot as I am too long

Now... if it was important for God to name these three as Holy Convocations ( though not limited to these)
‘Holy convocations’ appears in the original Hebrew as ‘Mikra’ei Kodesh’ {מקראי קודש} (or ‘Mikra Kodesh’ {מקרא קודש} in the singular form) and can be found in the biblical description of almost every holy day.

And they are celebrations.... Why would anyone assume that the most important person and most important event in humanity takes a bye. (For non sports fans, a bye refers to a team automatically advancing to the next round of tournament play without competing and bye week refers to a scheduled off week for a given team.)

IOW we just get to advance to salvation in our eternities and not have to acknowledge what put us there?

Back to the word PAGAN.

So what if our 2 most important dates that were picked for our celebration happened near a day that some stupid atheist Pagan was celebrating something....?

It is certain that if we do our own specific due diligence on our own traditions to avoid anything that would give a Pagan idea there is nothing wrong.....

And if we cannot break bread and rejoice of our standing in God on the date that ... I guess it was the church....

SPEAKING OF WHICH.... WHO FIRST PICKED 12-25 TO CELEBRATE JESUS' BIRTHDAY???????????????????????

The Holy bible assures us of the day, if not the date of the crucifixion'resurrection....

A shallow dive:
https://www.history.com › news › why-is-christmas-celebrated-on-december-25

Why Is Christmas Celebrated on December 25? | HISTORY

When church officials settled on December 25 at the end of the third century, they likely wanted the date to coincide with existing pagan festivals honoring Saturn (the Roman god of agriculture)...

WAIT..... This link is very interesting. I will poat the copy following this as it is too long for here.



So I shall close with the thoughts that if you chose not to do anything..... that is your choice and your free will is at work.

But if you do want to celebrate the 2 most important Holy days in the calendar year (exclusive of Pentecost, etc)
just remember the what and why and be appropriate.

TRIVIA TIME:

Stop covering your mouth when you yawn.... and disregard the saliva spray when and if it happens....

Why?

#8 of 9 Pagan traditions we all do... or did until now.

8. Covering your mouth when you yawn​

This tradition doesn’t even seem like a tradition, more of a polite reflex. But the pagan attachment to covering your mouth when you yawn is very dark.

Again, pagans are terrified of evil spirits stealing their souls. Blocking your mouth when you yawn was supposed to keep evil spirits from taking your life force right out of your throat.

Pagans noticed the high infant mortality and connected it to the fact that babies don’t cover their mouths when they yawn.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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PART 1 of 3 as this is too long for 1 post

How December 25 Became Christmas​

Andrew McGowan June 01, 2023 490 Comments 445978 views Share
On December 25, Christians around the world will gather to celebrate Jesus’ birth. Joyful carols, special liturgies, brightly wrapped gifts, festive foods—these all characterize the feast today, at least in the northern hemisphere. But just how did the Christmas festival originate? How did December 25 come to be associated with Jesus’ birthday?

The Bible offers few clues: Celebrations of Jesus’ Nativity are not mentioned in the Gospels or Acts; the date is not given, not even the time of year. The biblical reference to shepherds tending their flocks at night when they hear the news of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:8) might suggest the spring lambing season; in the cold month of December, on the other hand, sheep might well have been corralled. Yet most scholars would urge caution about extracting such a precise but incidental detail from a narrative whose focus is theological rather than calendrical.

The extrabiblical evidence from the first and second century is equally spare: There is no mention of birth celebrations in the writings of early Christian writers such as Irenaeus (c. 130–200) or Tertullian (c. 160–225). Origen of Alexandria (c. 165–264) goes so far as to mock Roman celebrations of birth anniversaries, dismissing them as “pagan” practices—a strong indication that Jesus’ birth was not marked with similar festivities at that place and time.1 As far as we can tell, Christmas was not celebrated at all at this point.

This stands in sharp contrast to the very early traditions surrounding Jesus’ last days. Each of the Four Gospels provides detailed information about the time of Jesus’ death. According to John, Jesus is crucified just as the Passover lambs are being sacrificed. This would have occurred on the 14th of the Hebrew month of Nisan, just before the Jewish holiday began at sundown (considered the beginning of the 15th day because in the Hebrew calendar, days begin at sundown). In Matthew, Mark and Luke, however, the Last Supper is held after sundown, on the beginning of the 15th. Jesus is crucified the next morning—still, the 15th.a

Easter, a much earlier development than Christmas, was simply the gradual Christian reinterpretation of Passover in terms of Jesus’ Passion. Its observance could even be implied in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 5:7–8: “Our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the festival…”); it was certainly a distinctively Christian feast by the mid-second century C.E., when the apocryphal text known as the Epistle to the Apostles has Jesus instruct his disciples to “make commemoration of [his] death, that is, the Passover.”

Jesus’ ministry, miracles, Passion and Resurrection were often of most interest to first- and early-second-century C.E. Christian writers. But over time, Jesus’ origins would become of increasing concern. We can begin to see this shift already in the New Testament. The earliest writings—Paul and Mark—make no mention of Jesus’ birth. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke provide well-known but quite different accounts of the event—although neither specifies a date. In the second century C.E., further details of Jesus’ birth and childhood are related in apocryphal writings such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Proto-Gospel of James.b These texts provide everything from the names of Jesus’ grandparents to the details of his education—but not the date of his birth.

Finally, in about 200 C.E., a Christian teacher in Egypt makes reference to the date Jesus was born. According to Clement of Alexandria, several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”2

to be continued
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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Part 2 of 3


Clearly there was great uncertainty, but also a considerable amount of interest, in dating Jesus’ birth in the late second century. By the fourth century, however, we find references to two dates that were widely recognized—and now also celebrated—as Jesus’ birthday: December 25 in the western Roman Empire and January 6 in the East (especially in Egypt and Asia Minor). The modern Armenian church continues to celebrate Christmas on January 6; for most Christians, however, December 25 would prevail, while January 6 eventually came to be known as the Feast of the Epiphany, commemorating the arrival of the magi in Bethlehem. The period between became the holiday season later known as the 12 days of Christmas.

The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus’ birthday comes from a mid-fourth-century Roman almanac that lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs. The first date listed, December 25, is marked: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea.”3 In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.

In the East, January 6 was at first not associated with the magi alone, but with the Christmas story as a whole.

So, almost 300 years after Jesus was born, we finally find people observing his birth in mid-winter. But how had they settled on the dates December 25 and January 6?

There are two theories today: one extremely popular, the other less often heard outside scholarly circles (though far more ancient).4

The most loudly touted theory about the origins of the Christmas date(s) is that it was borrowed from pagan celebrations. The Romans had their mid-winter Saturnalia festival in late December; barbarian peoples of northern and western Europe kept holidays at similar times. To top it off, in 274 C.E., the Roman emperor Aurelian established a feast of the birth of Sol Invictus (the Unconquered Sun), on December 25. Christmas, the argument goes, is really a spin-off from these pagan solar festivals. According to this theory, early Christians deliberately chose these dates to encourage the spread of Christmas and Christianity throughout the Roman world: If Christmas looked like a pagan holiday, more pagans would be open to both the holiday and the God whose birth it celebrated.

Despite its popularity today, this theory of Christmas’s origins has its problems. It is not found in any ancient Christian writings, for one thing. Christian authors of the time do note a connection between the solstice and Jesus’ birth: The church father Ambrose (c. 339–397), for example, described Christ as the true sun, who outshone the fallen gods of the old order. But early Christian writers never hint at any recent calendrical engineering; they clearly don’t think the date was chosen by the church. Rather they see the coincidence as a providential sign, as natural proof that God had selected Jesus over the false pagan gods.

It’s not until the 12th century that we find the first suggestion that Jesus’ birth celebration was deliberately set at the time of pagan feasts. A marginal note on a manuscript of the writings of the Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi states that in ancient times the Christmas holiday was actually shifted from January 6 to December 25 so that it fell on the same date as the pagan Sol Invictus holiday.5 In the 18th and 19th centuries, Bible scholars spurred on by the new study of comparative religions latched on to this idea.6 They claimed that because the early Christians didn’t know when Jesus was born, they simply assimilated the pagan solstice festival for their own purposes, claiming it as the time of the Messiah’s birth and celebrating it accordingly.

More recent studies have shown that many of the holiday’s modern trappings do reflect pagan customs borrowed much later, as Christianity expanded into northern and western Europe. The Christmas tree, for example, has been linked with late medieval druidic practices. This has only encouraged modern audiences to assume that the date, too, must be pagan.

There are problems with this popular theory, however, as many scholars recognize. Most significantly, the first mention of a date for Christmas (c. 200) and the earliest celebrations that we know about (c. 250–300) come in a period when Christians were not borrowing heavily from pagan traditions of such an obvious character.

Granted, Christian belief and practice were not formed in isolation. Many early elements of Christian worship—including eucharistic meals, meals honoring martyrs and much early Christian funerary art—would have been quite comprehensible to pagan observers. Yet, in the first few centuries C.E., the persecuted Christian minority was greatly concerned with distancing itself from the larger, public pagan religious observances, such as sacrifices, games and holidays. This was still true as late as the violent persecutions of the Christians conducted by the Roman emperor Diocletian between 303 and 312 C.E.

This would change only after Constantine converted to Christianity. From the mid-fourth century on, we do find Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals. A famous proponent of this practice was Pope Gregory the Great, who, in a letter written in 601 C.E. to a Christian missionary in Britain, recommended that local pagan temples not be destroyed but be converted into churches, and that pagan festivals be celebrated as feasts of Christian martyrs. At this late point, Christmas may well have acquired some pagan trappings. But we don’t have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established. Thus, it seems unlikely that the date was simply selected to correspond with pagan solar festivals.

The December 25 feast seems to have existed before 312—before Constantine and his conversion, at least. As we have seen, the Donatist Christians in North Africa seem to have known it from before that time. Furthermore, in the mid- to late fourth century, church leaders in the eastern Empire concerned themselves not with introducing a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, but with the addition of the December date to their traditional celebration on January 6.7

There is another way to account for the origins of Christmas on December 25: Strange as it may seem, the key to dating Jesus’ birth may lie in the dating of Jesus’ death at Passover. This view was first suggested to the modern world by French scholar Louis Duchesne in the early 20th century and fully developed by American Thomas Talley in more recent years.8 But they were certainly not the first to note a connection between the traditional date of Jesus’ death and his birth.

To be continued
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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Part 3 of 3


Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.d

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.”12

In the East, too, the dates of Jesus’ conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, the easterners used the 14th of the first spring month (Artemisios) in their local Greek calendar—April 6 to us. April 6 is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6—the eastern date for Christmas. In the East, too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, “The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world.”13 Even today, the Armenian Church celebrates the Annunciation in early April (on the 7th, not the 6th) and Christmas on January 6.e

Thus, we have Christians in two parts of the world calculating Jesus’ birth on the basis that his death and conception took place on the same day (March 25 or April 6) and coming up with two close but different results (December 25 and January 6).

Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way will certainly seem odd to modern readers, but it reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together. One of the most poignant expressions of this belief is found in Christian art. In numerous paintings of the angel’s Annunciation to Mary—the moment of Jesus’ conception—the baby Jesus is shown gliding down from heaven on or with a small cross (see photo above of detail from Master Bertram’s Annunciation scene); a visual reminder that the conception brings the promise of salvation through Jesus’ death.

The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)14 Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.15

In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.16

Andrew McGowan is Dean and President of the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale and McFaddin Professor of Anglican Studies at Yale Divinity School. Formerly, he was Warden and President of Trinity College at the University of Melbourne, and Joan Munro Professor of Historical Theology in Trinity’s Theological School within the University of Divinity. His work on early Christian thought and history includes Ascetic Eucharists: Food and Drink in Early Christan Ritual Meals (Oxford: Clarendon, 1999) and Ancient Christian Worship (Grand Rapids, MI: BakerAcademic, 2014).
 
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Zao is life

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Gal.4
9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you desire to slave anew?
10 You observe days and months and times and years.
11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have labored among you in vain.

How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Equally, why make laws about whether or not certain days should be observed in honor of Christ and which days of the year should or should not be observed?

I love the Passover seder because I know Jesus ate the Passover meal with His disciples the night He was betrayed, and every aspect of it - the unleavened bread, the wine, etc - points to Christ. Likewise with all the biblical appointed times.

But He has fulfilled it. Now I can enjoy Christmas day with family because I know Jesus wasn't born that day but it's the day we remember His birth. I can enjoy pickled fish on "Good Friday" because I know it's in remembrance of Christ's death on the cross. And I can love and appreciate the Passover seder which as a non-Jew I do not observe.

I'm not bound by any "thou shalt not" laws regarding which days of the year I hold in remembrance of a certain day that pertains to Christ. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Gal.4
9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you desire to slave anew?
10 You observe days and months and times and years.
11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have labored among you in vain.

How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Equally, why make laws about whether or not certain days should be observed in honor of Christ and which days of the year should or should not be observed?

I love the Passover seder because I know Jesus ate the Passover meal with His disciples the night He was betrayed, and every aspect of it - the unleavened bread, the wine, etc - points to Christ. Likewise with all the biblical appointed times.

But He has fulfilled it. Now I can enjoy Christmas day with family because I know Jesus wasn't born that day but it's the day we remember His birth. I can enjoy pickled fish on "Good Friday" because I know it's in remembrance of Christ's death on the cross. And I can love and appreciate the Passover seder which as a non-Jew I do not observe.

I'm not bound by any "thou shalt not" laws regarding which days of the year I hold in remembrance of a certain day that pertains to Christ. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Likewise, as all has been fulfilled by Him why have any day to gather in worship when we can privately worship on our own.

Or is it appropriate to gather to praise and celebrate what He has done?
 
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BlessedPeace

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How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Likewise, as all has been fulfilled by Him why have any day to gather in worship when we can privately worship on our own.

Or is it appropriate to gather to praise and celebrate what He has done?
You don't attend any church once a week,home church or otherwise. Nor take Communion. OK.


Excerpt of commentary Galatians 4:10

"...As to the bearing of this passage on the general question of the observance of seasons, it is to be noticed that the reference is here to the adoption by the Galatians of the Jewish seasons as a mark of the extent to which they were prepared to take on themselves the burden of the Mosaic law. It does not necessarily follow that the observance of Christian seasons is condemned. At the same time, it is quite clear that St. Paul places all such matters under the head of “elements” or “rudiments.” They belong to the lowest section of Christian practice, and the more advanced a Christian is the less he needs to be bound by them. This, again, is qualified by the consideration that it is dangerous for any one individual to assume his own advanced condition, and to think himself able to dispense with the safeguards which his brother-Christians require. It is safest to follow the general rule of the Church, so long as it is done intelligently—i.e., with a consciousness of the reason and expediency of what is done, and not in a spirit of mere mechanical routine. The comparison between the literal and the spiritual observance of seasons, and the superiority of the latter as the more excellent way, is well brought out by Origen in some comments upon this passage: “If it be objected to us on this subject that we are accustomed to observe certain days—as, for example, the Lord’s Day, the Preparation, the Passover, or Pentecost—I have to answer that, to the perfect Christian—who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word—all his days are the Lord’s, and he is always keeping the Lord’s Day. He, also, who is unceasingly preparing himself for the true life, and abstaining from the pleasures of this life which lead astray so many, such a one is always keeping the Preparation Day. Again, he who considers that ‘Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us,’ and that it is his duty to keep the feast by eating of the flesh of the Word, never ceases to keep the Paschal Feast. And, finally, he who can truly say: ‘We are risen with Christ,’ and ‘He hath exalted us, and made us sit with Him in heavenly places in Christ,’ is always living in the season of Pentecost . . . But the majority of those who are accounted believers are not of this advanced class; but from being either unable or unwilling to keep every day in this manner, they require some sensible memorial to prevent spiritual things from passing away altogether from their minds” (Against Celsus, viii. 22, 23..."
 
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David in NJ

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You don't attend any church once a week,home church or otherwise. Nor take Communion. OK.


Excerpt of commentary Galatians 4:10

"...As to the bearing of this passage on the general question of the observance of seasons, it is to be noticed that the reference is here to the adoption by the Galatians of the Jewish seasons as a mark of the extent to which they were prepared to take on themselves the burden of the Mosaic law. It does not necessarily follow that the observance of Christian seasons is condemned. At the same time, it is quite clear that St. Paul places all such matters under the head of “elements” or “rudiments.” They belong to the lowest section of Christian practice, and the more advanced a Christian is the less he needs to be bound by them. This, again, is qualified by the consideration that it is dangerous for any one individual to assume his own advanced condition, and to think himself able to dispense with the safeguards which his brother-Christians require. It is safest to follow the general rule of the Church, so long as it is done intelligently—i.e., with a consciousness of the reason and expediency of what is done, and not in a spirit of mere mechanical routine. The comparison between the literal and the spiritual observance of seasons, and the superiority of the latter as the more excellent way, is well brought out by Origen in some comments upon this passage: “If it be objected to us on this subject that we are accustomed to observe certain days—as, for example, the Lord’s Day, the Preparation, the Passover, or Pentecost—I have to answer that, to the perfect Christian—who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word—all his days are the Lord’s, and he is always keeping the Lord’s Day. He, also, who is unceasingly preparing himself for the true life, and abstaining from the pleasures of this life which lead astray so many, such a one is always keeping the Preparation Day. Again, he who considers that ‘Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us,’ and that it is his duty to keep the feast by eating of the flesh of the Word, never ceases to keep the Paschal Feast. And, finally, he who can truly say: ‘We are risen with Christ,’ and ‘He hath exalted us, and made us sit with Him in heavenly places in Christ,’ is always living in the season of Pentecost . . . But the majority of those who are accounted believers are not of this advanced class; but from being either unable or unwilling to keep every day in this manner, they require some sensible memorial to prevent spiritual things from passing away altogether from their minds” (Against Celsus, viii. 22, 23..."
In a nut shell = babies stay at the nursery
 
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BreadOfLife

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Part 3 of 3


Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.d

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.”12

In the East, too, the dates of Jesus’ conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, the easterners used the 14th of the first spring month (Artemisios) in their local Greek calendar—April 6 to us. April 6 is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6—the eastern date for Christmas. In the East, too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, “The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world.”13 Even today, the Armenian Church celebrates the Annunciation in early April (on the 7th, not the 6th) and Christmas on January 6.e

Thus, we have Christians in two parts of the world calculating Jesus’ birth on the basis that his death and conception took place on the same day (March 25 or April 6) and coming up with two close but different results (December 25 and January 6).

Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way will certainly seem odd to modern readers, but it reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together. One of the most poignant expressions of this belief is found in Christian art. In numerous paintings of the angel’s Annunciation to Mary—the moment of Jesus’ conception—the baby Jesus is shown gliding down from heaven on or with a small cross (see photo above of detail from Master Bertram’s Annunciation scene); a visual reminder that the conception brings the promise of salvation through Jesus’ death.

The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)14 Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.15

In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.16
NONSENSE.

The Early Church celebrated the birth of Christ BEFORE 274AD, which is when the Roman emperor Aurelian established Sol Invictus.

Seventy (70) years before this - the Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25.

It was also believed that the Crucifixion took place on the anniversary of that date, some 5500 years later. This means that the Early Church believed that the Annunciation took place on March 25th on the anniversary of the Creation. The consensus was that Jesus was born exactly nine months later on December 25th.
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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NONSENSE.

The Early Church celebrated the birth of Christ BEFORE 274AD, which is when the Roman emperor Aurelian established Sol Invictus.

Seventy (70) years before this - the Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world Can you supply
Can you supply links?
 
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Aunty Jane

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as all has been fulfilled by Him why have any day to gather in worship when we can privately worship on our own.

Or is it appropriate to gather to praise and celebrate what He has done?
At the end of the day, all things considered, what does God's word have to say about all of it?
One rule of thumb is expressed by the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 4:7....
"Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other." (1 Cor 4:6)

If we are 'not to go beyond the things that are written', then why have so many things been introduced into church "tradition" that have no basis in scripture? The rule is simple....if God's word is silent, don't bring in things that have no place in God's worship....things that are from "outside" of God's word? If you do, you run the risk of doing what "the church" has done....celebrating all manner of things that are not from God's word as if what is written is not enough.......if “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17).....why do we need to add to what has been so amply provided?

So, who then is "the church" that introduced all these extras? How can we identify the "wheat" from the "weeds" that Jesus said would be sown by the devil, growing together in the world?...and whose major aim is to 'divide and conquer'.....has he accomplished his aim.....? You bet he has! Look at the arguments on these threads.....Christians are more divided than they have ever been. The question is who are the "wheat" and who are the "weeds"....which are the real Christians and which is the counterfeit "Christianity" planted by the devil that is littered with all manner of human traditions, invalidating true Christian worship.

What did Jesus ask the Pharisees?.....“Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?" (Matt 15:3)
Disobedience is the devil's playground, and the fact is, he cannot make us do anything....all he can do is influence us mostly by the power of suggestion to tempt us to separate from God by our conduct. Is this what we are seeing again? Is history repeating? Do humans keep falling into the same hole, time after time, as if there are no precedents to warn them NOT to go there....?

Right from day one, all that God required was obedience.....the devil has never changed his tactics because human nature does not change. The majority can't be told, and humans never learn from their past mistakes.....therefore they are doomed to repeat them....ad infinitum.

Some though, get the message....we need to be one of them.
 
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The Learner

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Part 3 of 3


Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.d

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.”11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.”12

In the East, too, the dates of Jesus’ conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, the easterners used the 14th of the first spring month (Artemisios) in their local Greek calendar—April 6 to us. April 6 is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6—the eastern date for Christmas. In the East, too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, “The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world.”13 Even today, the Armenian Church celebrates the Annunciation in early April (on the 7th, not the 6th) and Christmas on January 6.e

Thus, we have Christians in two parts of the world calculating Jesus’ birth on the basis that his death and conception took place on the same day (March 25 or April 6) and coming up with two close but different results (December 25 and January 6).

Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way will certainly seem odd to modern readers, but it reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together. One of the most poignant expressions of this belief is found in Christian art. In numerous paintings of the angel’s Annunciation to Mary—the moment of Jesus’ conception—the baby Jesus is shown gliding down from heaven on or with a small cross (see photo above of detail from Master Bertram’s Annunciation scene); a visual reminder that the conception brings the promise of salvation through Jesus’ death.

The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)14 Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.15

In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.16
way too boring to us Historians.
 

The Learner

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Gal.4
9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you desire to slave anew?
10 You observe days and months and times and years.
11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have labored among you in vain.

How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Equally, why make laws about whether or not certain days should be observed in honor of Christ and which days of the year should or should not be observed?

I love the Passover seder because I know Jesus ate the Passover meal with His disciples the night He was betrayed, and every aspect of it - the unleavened bread, the wine, etc - points to Christ. Likewise with all the biblical appointed times.

But He has fulfilled it. Now I can enjoy Christmas day with family because I know Jesus wasn't born that day but it's the day we remember His birth. I can enjoy pickled fish on "Good Friday" because I know it's in remembrance of Christ's death on the cross. And I can love and appreciate the Passover seder which as a non-Jew I do not observe.

I'm not bound by any "thou shalt not" laws regarding which days of the year I hold in remembrance of a certain day that pertains to Christ. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
Galatians 4
Easy-to-Read Version
4 This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules[a] of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

Paul’s Love for the Galatian Believers
8 In the past you did not know God. You were slaves to gods that were not real. 9 But now you know the true God. Really, though, it is God who knows you. So why do you turn back to the same kind of weak and useless rules you followed before? Do you want to be slaves to those things again? 10-11 It worries me that you follow teachings about special days, months, seasons, and years. I fear that my work for you has been wasted.

12 Brothers and sisters, I became like you. So please become like me. You were very good to me before. 13 You know that I came to you the first time because I was sick. That was when I told the Good News to you. 14 My sickness was a burden to you, but you did not stop showing me respect or make me leave. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel from God. You accepted me as if I were Jesus Christ himself! 15 You were very happy then. Where is that joy now? I can say without a doubt that you would have done anything to help me. If it had been possible, you would have taken out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Am I now your enemy because I tell you the truth?

17 Those people[c] are working hard to persuade you, but this is not good for you. They want to persuade you to turn against us and work hard for them. 18 It is good for you to work hard, of course, if it is for something good. That’s something you should do whether I am there or not. 19 My little children, I am in pain again over you, like a mother giving birth. I will feel this pain until people can look at you and see Christ. 20 I wish I could be with you now. Then maybe I could change the way I am talking to you. Now I don’t know what to do about you.

The Example of Hagar and Sarah
21 Some of you people want to be under the law. Tell me, do you know what the law says? 22 The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons. The mother of one son was a slave woman, and the mother of the other son was a free woman. 23 Abraham’s son from the slave woman was born in the normal human way. But the son from the free woman was born because of the promise God made to Abraham.

24 This true story makes a picture for us. The two women are like the two agreements between God and his people. One agreement is the law that God made on Mount Sinai. The people who are under this agreement are like slaves. The mother named Hagar is like that agreement. 25 So Hagar is like Mount Sinai in Arabia. She is a picture of the earthly Jewish city of Jerusalem. This city is a slave, and all its people are slaves to the law. 26 But the heavenly Jerusalem that is above is like the free woman, who is our mother. 27 The Scriptures say,

“Be happy, woman—you who cannot have children.
Be glad you never gave birth.
Shout and cry with joy!
You never felt those labor pains.
The woman who is alone[d] will have more children
than the woman who has a husband.”

28 My brothers and sisters, you are children who were born because of God’s promise, just as Isaac was. 29 But the other son of Abraham, who was born in the normal way, caused trouble for the one who was born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same today. 30 But what do the Scriptures say? “Throw out the slave woman and her son! The son of the free woman will receive everything his father has, but the son of the slave woman will receive nothing.”[e] 31 So, my brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman. We are children of the free woman.

Footnotes
Galatians 4:3 rules Or “powers.” Also in verse 9.
Galatians 4:6 Abba An Aramaic word that was used by Jewish children as a name for their fathers.
Galatians 4:17 Those people The false teachers who were bothering the believers in Galatia. See Gal. 1:7.
Galatians 4:27 woman … alone This means her husband has left her.
Galatians 4:30 Quote from Gen. 21:10.
 
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The Learner

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How can any holy day represent He who has already fulfilled them all?

Likewise, as all has been fulfilled by Him why have any day to gather in worship when we can privately worship on our own.

Or is it appropriate to gather to praise and celebrate what He has done?
yes and yes
 

The Learner

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NONSENSE.

The Early Church celebrated the birth of Christ BEFORE 274AD, which is when the Roman emperor Aurelian established Sol Invictus.

Seventy (70) years before this - the Christian historian, Hippolytus of Rome, explains in his Commentary on the book of Daniel (c. A.D. 204) that the birth of Jesus was believed to have taken place on December 25th:

“For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”

Hippolytus’ reference to Adam is from another one of his writings, the Chronicon, where he explains that Jesus was born nine months to the day of March 25th. According to his calculations, the world was created on the vernal equinox, March 25.

It was also believed that the Crucifixion took place on the anniversary of that date, some 5500 years later. This means that the Early Church believed that the Annunciation took place on March 25th on the anniversary of the Creation. The consensus was that Jesus was born exactly nine months later on December 25th.
winner
 

The Learner

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Can you supply links?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/dvpc4u
 

BlessedPeace

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Can you supply links?
Oh,yes.

"In the year 274 AD, solstice fell on 25th December. Roman Emperor Aurelian proclaimed the date as “Natalis Solis Invicti,” the festival of the birth of the invincible sun. In 320 AD, Pope Julius I specified the 25th of December as the official date of the birth of Jesus Christ."
 
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David in NJ

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https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/dvpc4u
P.S. - JESUS was not born on Dec 25th

P.S. - JESUS was not born in December