Circumcision of the heart

[dragonfly]

In the Righteousness thread started by JohnnyB, which had been discussing Romans 2, I began to question who exactly had 'circumcision of the heart', as I'd always assumed it could be only in Christians.

If anyone reading can understand the question, then, I'm interested in your thoughts. :)

Here is part of a post (I wrote) outlining what stumped me.



'These verses at the end of Romans 2, seem to be referring to righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ (because of the mention of circumcison of the heart), even though Paul has not finished making his case which concludes at Romans 3:23.

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.


So this raises a question I had never considered - and have never heard preached upon - namely.... does this mean that those who kept the law flawlessly (acknowledging their sins, bringing their tithes and offerings with mourning over 'the sin' in their hearts Eze 9:4), were 'circumcised in heart' - were not 'stiff-necked' (idolatrous, proud)

Deuteronomy 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8, Acts 7:51?


And yet still, this was not the circumcision of Jesus Christ? Col 2:11


Look at this as a parallel, please:

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.'

 

[Episkopos]

Jer_9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.


Circumcision of the heart is the result of the New Covenant whereby the law of God is inscribed on our hearts. It is the new creation and the new nature that begins when the love of God pierces our hearts to invite us to be joined to God in the Spirit.

 

[JohnnyB]

I understand what you are saying, epi. My thought was that cicumcision of the heart was loving God, doing His will, and knowing Him? Cleaning the vessel from the inside out.

In Deut 30:6 it says that God will circumcise their hearts.

If this only an NT happening, why did God tell them that? Even in light of the verse you provided, wouldn't it at least give the impression it could be possible?

Not arguing, just learning?:)

Thanks

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos and JohnnyB, :)

My thought was that cicumcision of the heart was loving God, doing His will, and knowing Him? Cleaning the vessel from the inside out.

From the way it's described in Acts 2, it's an event rather than a process. 37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Circumcision of the heart is the result of the New Covenant whereby the law of God is inscribed on our hearts. It is the new creation and the new nature that begins when the love of God pierces our hearts to invite us to be joined to God in the Spirit.

All that said - and particularly with the parallel in baptisms in Acts 19 - in Romans 2, Paul is contrasting Gentiles (uncircumcised in the flesh) and those who are circumcised in the flesh with those who are circumcised in the heart, and stating (not suggesting) that those whose praise is of God and not of men, are the real inward Jews, who desire to please God. Why does this not apply to Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Boaz, David and the prophets not already named? I know they didn't have a new nature, but, they were walking in obedience to God, keeping His laws, pleasing Him rather than men, speaking His words and for the most part, feeding His flock. They were not 'stiff-necked' - any of them.

 

[Episkopos]

I understand what you are saying, epi. My thought was that cicumcision of the heart was loving God, doing His will, and knowing Him? Cleaning the vessel from the inside out.

In Deut 30:6 it says that God will circumcise their hearts.

If this only an NT happening, why did God tell them that? Even in light of the verse you provided, wouldn't it at least give the impression it could be possible?

Not arguing, just learning? :)

Thanks

I hear you! When I quoted Deut. 30:6 to a Jewish friend of mine he thought I was quoting wrong since it was God doing the circumcising.

In the OT we are told to circumcise our own hearts. Clearly this is not possible. But it shows that without this we are not fully in God's will. Perhaps had Israel cried out for this the Lord Jesus would have been better received. It also says

Luk_4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

Those who thought they were obeying God's laws were given one they could not do. Then again they were not actually fulfilling the 10 commandments either. So Israel was given a standard they could not keep...until Jesus came.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

In the OT we are told to circumcise our own hearts. Clearly this is not possible.

Then why would God ask them to? He is not in the habit of giving them commands they could not obey.

Then again they were not actually fulfilling the 10 commandments either. So Israel was given a standard they could not keep...

But we know from Zacharias and Elisabeth, and Paul, that it was possible to keep the law perfectly.

Brother, there must be a better way of phrasing what you mean, so that what you write is biblically accurate?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,



Then why would God ask them to? He is not in the habit of giving them commands they could not obey.



But we know from Zacharias and Elisabeth, and Paul, that it was possible to keep the law perfectly.

Brother, there must be a better way of phrasing what you mean, so that what you write is biblically accurate?

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Here is all we need!! The early church did not have our 2 dimensional approach to righteousness. They were righteous before God.

Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners. Those who are well have no need of a doctor.

Mar_2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Can you see that Jesus is saying that the righteous are already whole?????

 

[MTPockets]

Hi!

Jus' my two cents towards the discussion ... well, perhaps better said to be 5 cents because of it's length. :)

Circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant which God established with Abraham and his natural descendants, (Gen 17:10-11). Abraham was already a believer before he was circumcised. On the grounds of that faith he had also received the gift of righteousness. Even though he entered it as a stranger, Abraham had entered the promised land because of his faith in God, .

When Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees behind, he had already received the promise that in him all the generations of the earth would be blessed, (Gen 12:3). He had received the promise that he would be an heir of the world, (Rom 4:13). The greatest which the world had to give would spring from him, namely Christ and those who are in Christ.

Abraham had himself circumcised with his son Ishmael and more than three hundred members of his household. But the son of the promise had not yet arrived. The slaves, and those who were born in the house of their master, would later wear the sign of circumcision as the people of Israel. It was not in itself a sign of belief but an indication that a man belonged to the natural offspring of Abraham. For Abraham himself, however, it was a sign of the righteousness of faith, (Rom 4:11). [This explains why a circumcised people did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief; instead, an uncircumcised people under Joshua did enter in]. A circumcised nation perished in the wilderness because they did not believe God or put their trust in Him (Heb 3:19). Circumcision was an external, hidden sign. It was not possible to tell from a man's face whether he belonged to the people of God. This hidden sign was associated with the procreation of natural life.

The Old Covenant had a sign in the flesh and it was a Covenant for the natural descendants. In the New Covenant there is a sign in the heart and a Covenant in the spirit; that is: in the invisible world. The New Covenant is concerned with the inner man; with his understanding and with his heart.

"This is the Covenant that I will make with the (spiritual) house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people", (Heb 8:10). The New Covenant is not in any manner a continuation of the Old Covenant. While it runs parallel, it nevertheless belongs to a higher reality. The two Covenants are like two roads; one which goes over the earth and the other through the heavens. In the Old Covenant, everything was focused to the earth and the world of the physical senses. In the New Covenant, which rests on better promises, everything is focused on "things above"; in the the "heavenly places".

There was an earthly tabernacle in the Old Covenant, and there is a heavenly, true tabernacle in the New Covenant (Heb 8:2). Then there were earthly priests, now there is a heavenly priesthood (1Peter 2:9). There was an earthly high priest, now there is a heavenly High Priest (Heb 8:1). There was a shadowy law of Sinai, now there is a law of the Spirit, 'for when there is a change in the priesthood there is necessarily a change in the law as well' (Rom 8:2; Heb 7:12). The Old Covenant was made with the natural people of Israel, and the New Covenant with the spiritual Israel of God.

The Old Covenant had a circumcision made by hands, which left an outward mark on the body. The New Covenant has a circumcision which is not made with hands. 'In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism' (Col. 2.11-12). The circumcision of Christ, in contrast to that of Moses, (John 7:22), is the manner in which the Christian is circumcised by the Holy Spirit. The circumcision of the heart therefore is what has taken the place of the Old Covenant circumcision;

Circumcision in the Old Covenant was only for male descendants, for 'by the will of man' children were conceived, (Gen 17:10 & John 1.13). The Old Covenant applied only to the natural offspring. The New Covenant counts only with the spiritual man and knows no distinction between man and woman, (Gal 3:28). The circumcision of the heart and the testimony to this in baptism, is for all children of God without distinction of sex. "They were baptized, both men and women", (Acts 8:12). When Paul boasted about this, it was not in the mark which he had on his physical body as a natural son of Abraham, but upon the mark of Jesus which had come about by the circumcision of the heart, (Gal 6:15-17).

What is the parallel between the circumcision of the Old Covenant and the circumcision of the heart in the new? Faith on Abraham's part preceded circumcision. The first thing a person must do to be included in the New Covenant is to repent and put his faith in the promises of God. What do these promises say? The answer is: "But to all who received him, who believed on his name, he gave power to become the children of God", (John 1:12).

Through the power of the life-giving Spirit, a new creation is born out of the old dead man. The completely new life frees itself from the old. The new man has been born and he must be made free from the old life. The new man is now separated from the old. This is a clear sign in the spiritual world that a man has become a child of God. He wears the mark: "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity", (2Tim 2:19).

In the same way that the umbilical cord, joining together mother and child, has to be severed after a natural birth, the old man is severed from the new by a circumcision which takes place without hands. By virtue of the circumcision of the heart, the reborn man is freed from his old life and receives the power to live in newness of life. This is the circumcision of Christ, for "if the Son makes you free you will be free indeed", (John 8:36). Although this forms a first beginning, the new man has become a citizen of the Kingdom of God and his name is recorded there.

Baptism symbolizes the fact that this circumcision has taken place. The old life has been left behind in the water, buried as an after-birth. The new man emerges as a child of God, and in his heart he wears the 'hidden' sign of the Covenant: circumcision. His new heart is an indication that Jesus has given him eternal life. "Real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal", (Rom 2:29). It is a circumcision after the law of the Spirit and not after the law of Sinai. "For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in Spirit and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh", (Phil 3:3).

The circumcision of the heart belongs to the process of spiritual birth. The prophet said to those who were born under the Old Covenant, "And as for your birth, on the day you were born your umbilical cord was not cut", (Ez 16:4). They were not separated from the old man.

After the circumcision and resurrection to new life, a person has not simply become a child of God but he is also included in the body of Christ, that is the faithful church. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body", (1Cor 12:13). For this reason also testify about "the circumcision of Christ". The result of this circumcision is that the new man, like a living cell, takes up his place in the mystic body of Christ. Also, in the New Covenant the seed of Abraham is circumcised. This seed is Christ, and all those who are in Christ, (Gal 3:16-29).

Through this circumcision of the heart a separation takes place between the old and the new man. The old man had contact with the powers of darkness, which were at work in him, (Eph 2:2). The new man is born as a result of the contact between the powers of the Spirit of God and the spirit of man. Now we can say: "Abba, Father". The eternal judgment, the absolute separation between good and evil, begins to take place here in a human life. Abraham believed that he would be the heir of the world, (Rom 4:13). The spiritual circumcision is the sign of the promise of being a child of God. We are heirs in the spiritual world, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, (Rom 8:17). This is a matter of faith, even though we only see the early beginnings.

The circumcision of the heart is the spiritual reality which was foreshadowed by the circumcision of the Old Covenant. It 'brands' a person as a child of God.

---
Those denominations which substitute infant baptism for circumcision accept again the natural line of the generations. Faith cannot be required or expected from an infant who is to be baptized. The words of the apostle about circumcision apply equally well to the sprinkled infant, "If you receive circumcision Christ will be of no advantage to you", (Gal 5:2). For this reason many of the traditional denominational doctrines never exceed the spiritual standards of ancient Israel. Instead, by their insisting to permit infant baptism testifies that they remain on the same level as the Old Testament and lack opportunity to develop as spiritual people. Only those who have a genuine share in the New Covenant are called 'the seed of Abraham', (Heb 6:8).
---

 

[dragonfly]

MTPockets, your post is very much appreciated. Thank you. :) I particularly liked where you touched on the powers of darkness at work in the old creation, comparing it with

The new man is born as a result of the contact between the powers of the Spirit of God and the spirit of man. Now we can say: "Abba, Father".

Amen!

I might have chosen the word 'covenant' instead of 'contract', but, I could not have expressed what you've expressed covering so many scriptures and angles, so you probably don't need to worry about just one word!


Now.... with all that you have shared, accepted.... I still see a window of possibility (which the Lord brought to mind last night) as to how to express the kind of circumcision of heart to which God exhorted Israel while they were still in the wilderness.

2 Chronicles 7:14 ​

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, ​

and pray, ​

and seek my face, ​

and turn from their wicked ways; ​

then will I hear from heaven, ​

and will forgive their sin, ​

and will heal their land.​

2 Chronicles 12:6, 7, 12 It's the same practical message as Jesus rephrased in Matthew 11


28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.




Philippians 2:3b '... but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.



What we see in the above verses, is that humility is a direct choice made by the person themself with regard to him or herself. 1 Cor 14:32. My point is, it is not beyond our control. It is not something we wait for the Holy Spirit to do in us, although we may need His help!



Numbers 12:3 (Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth.)

We see it was not the angry outbursts to which he was driven, which kept him out of the land, but unbelief. Numbers 20:12


(Psa 25:9, Psa 37:11, Psa 45:4, Psa 69:32, Psa 76:9, Psa 147:6, Psa 149:4, Zeph 2:3,
Matthew 5:5, 2 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 5:23, Galatians 6:1, Ephesians 4:2, Colossians 3:12, James 1:21, 1 Peter 3:15)



At the beginning of Genesis 12, God calls Abram and gives him mighty promises about himself and his offspring. It is hard to imagine that anyone would be able to resist the word of God in such circumstances.

Genesis 13:2 And Abram [was] very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. Nevertheless, Abram's heart toward God was to be tested, and his patience strung out over years. His desire for a child made him vulnerable to take the natural route rather than the spiritual one which God had commended to him.

Then, after his promised son was quite grown, God asked him to sacrifice him. We cannot imagine what Abraham was thinking as he walked with Isaac to Mount Moriah, but, he knew enough to obey God. He was in a deep heart relationship with God by now, which mattered to him more than anything else. The words of the Lord after the intended sacrifice of Isaac had been substituted by a ram, are noteworthy:

Genesis 22:16 And [the angel of the LORD] said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


Abraham was meek, and humble, in his willingness to obey God's mystifying command, and thus He exercised faith in God's word.


What I'm suggesting is, there is a 'circumcision of heart' which can exist separate from the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit.

It is to do with a right attitude towards God and a right response to His word to us, and a right attitude to one's own status before God - as being the greatly lesser party of the two; by no means an equal, and certainly not above Him in anything.

 

[MTPockets]

MTPockets, your post is very much appreciated. Thank you. :) I particularly liked where you touched on the powers of darkness at work in the old creation, comparing it with



Amen!

I might have chosen the word 'covenant' instead of 'contract', but, I could not have expressed what you've expressed covering so many scriptures and angles, so you probably don't need to worry about just one word!


Now.... with all that you have shared, accepted.... I still see a window of possibility (which the Lord brought to mind last night) as to how to express the kind of circumcision of heart to which God exhorted Israel while they were still in the wilderness.

2 Chronicles 7:14 ​

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, ​

and pray, ​

and seek my face, ​

and turn from their wicked ways; ​

then will I hear from heaven, ​

and will forgive their sin, ​

and will heal their land.​

2 Chronicles 12:6, 7, 12 It's the same practical message as Jesus rephrased in Matthew 11


28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.




Philippians 2:3b '... but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.



What we see in the above verses, is that humility is a direct choice made by the person themself with regard to him or herself. 1 Cor 14:32. My point is, it is not beyond our control. It is not something we wait for the Holy Spirit to do in us, although we may need His help!



Numbers 12:3 (Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth.)

We see it was not the angry outbursts to which he was driven, which kept him out of the land, but unbelief. Numbers 20:12


(Psa 25:9, Psa 37:11, Psa 45:4, Psa 69:32, Psa 76:9, Psa 147:6, Psa 149:4, Zeph 2:3,
Matthew 5:5, 2 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 5:23, Galatians 6:1, Ephesians 4:2, Colossians 3:12, James 1:21, 1 Peter 3:15)



At the beginning of Genesis 12, God calls Abram and gives him mighty promises about himself and his offspring. It is hard to imagine that anyone would be able to resist the word of God in such circumstances.

Genesis 13:2 And Abram [was] very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. Nevertheless, Abram's heart toward God was to be tested, and his patience strung out over years. His desire for a child made him vulnerable to take the natural route rather than the spiritual one which God had commended to him.

Then, after his promised son was quite grown, God asked him to sacrifice him. We cannot imagine what Abraham was thinking as he walked with Isaac to Mount Moriah, but, he knew enough to obey God. He was in a deep heart relationship with God by now, which mattered to him more than anything else. The words of the Lord after the intended sacrifice of Isaac had been substituted by a ram, are noteworthy:

Genesis 22:16 And [the angel of the LORD] said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


Abraham was meek, and humble, in his willingness to obey God's mystifying command, and thus He exercised faith in God's word.


What I'm suggesting is, there is a 'circumcision of heart' which can exist separate from the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit.

It is to do with a right attitude towards God and a right response to His word to us, and a right attitude to one's own status before God - as being the greatly lesser party of the two; by no means an equal, and certainly not above Him in anything.

Hi! 'DragonFly'
Wow! You an' I should be writing a book together! :) We can sure write up a storm, ay?
Thanks for your Comments; it's always nice to read the thoughts of others because our Gospel has the radiance properties of a diamond ... innumerable facets which become more enhanced under different light angles. Every Comment in this Forum is another light angle which we all can be enlightened with.

I'm gonna' risk whatever is left of my credibility and say that you really shouldn't be with the idea that God tempted Abraham to kill his son, Isaac.
Think about it, 'DragonFly'. Why should anyone wish to know a God who counsels His followers to sacrifice their children? Isn't that what we would expect from a pagan God?
Your confession must always testify to the truth about God ... that He is ONLY and perfectly good. Isn't that the Lord's prayer? We should always try and hallow God's name!
Yeah, I know ... engaging this kinna' discussion can often be seen like inviting someone to sit down an' enjoy some plague of heresy. It seems that there are three untouchables in Christianity: discussing the trinity, debating about the 'son of man' and God's sovereignty with good and evil.
But the truth doesn't scare me; nor do the accusations or suspicion of my saying that God is ONLY and perfectly good. Not at all.
So, I suggest that you do some serious scriptural investigation about Who God is and what He is like ... how He behaves. In the end, you will happily discover that you can no longer confess, "God asked him to sacrifice him ... he knew enough to obey God".

But leaving that aside ...
This has me a bit confused ... could you please explain it better for my dense mind?
You wrote:
"What I'm suggesting is, there is a 'circumcision of heart' which can exist separate from the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit.
It is to do with a right attitude towards God and a right response to His word to us, and a right attitude to one's own status before God - as being the greatly lesser party of the two; by no means an equal, and certainly not above Him in anything".
I'm unable to properly decipher what you're meaning to say.

Sound like a good plan to you?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi MT,

I'm going to leave my first comment because I have to go out. Feel free to answer. I will address other points if necessary, later.

Did I use the word 'tempted'?

As far as I can tell, it is you who introduced that thought to what I wrote. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, but, the word 'tempt' is there in the text. It's better translation from the Hebrew means, 'test'. And Abraham may well have understood that at the time.

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham:

and he said, Behold, [here] I [am].

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah;

and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

 

[JohnnyB]

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Here is all we need!! The early church did not have our 2 dimensional approach to righteousness. They were righteous before God.

Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners. Those who are well have no need of a doctor.

Mar_2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Can you see that Jesus is saying that the righteous are already whole?????

I see what point you're making with this verse, but when I read it, it seems He is saying the Pharisees are righteous in their own minds so Jesus is saying He did not come for them, that they had their chance, and now He will eat with sinners. They already believe they are whole in the sense they have all they need, they already are spiritually healthy.

What am I missing?


I am really not trying to argue with you, I just want to learn! :)

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Johnny and Episkopos,

Could you both please consider moving your conversation back to the righteousness thread, if that's what you're going to discuss?




.
Hi again MT, This post has been edited as I miskeyed and it was submitted incomplete.

This has me a bit confused ... could you please explain it better for my dense mind?
You wrote:
"What I'm suggesting is, there is a 'circumcision of heart' which can exist separate from the circumcision of Christ by the Spirit.
It is to do with a right attitude towards God and a right response to His word to us, and a right attitude to one's own status before God - as being the greatly lesser party of the two; by no means an equal, and certainly not above Him in anything".

The question this thread seeks to answer - knowing that when God speaks it is the creative word (meaning that it can be obeyed fully) - is... just what is the 'circumcision of heart' to which Paul refers at the end of Romans 2, as Paul is applying it to both Gentiles and Jews?

With this in mind, please review the whole thread, (noting Episkopos' statement that it is impossible to circumcise oneself, bearing in mind that Abraham had already believed. His heart had engaged with God's, although we know he could not become circumcised with the circumcision of Christ). Keeping in mind this possibility of being able to obey God as described in Deuteronomy 10:16, think about the parallels I show in post # 9 after your first, because I believe this is the key.

Then focus on the context Paul gives 'circumcision of the heart' at the end of Romans 2.

It is not until Rom 3:22 that he mentions 'the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe', by which comes: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses ...' Colossians 2.


I hope you won't be confused by the end of all that, but, I realise I may be touching on a blindspot for some people, and so it may take revelation rather than discussion, for it to open up to you. I mean this in the kindest possible way.

 

[JohnnyB]

Sorry, df

 

[dragonfly]

Hey! I'm not angry... I'm just aware that your thread might benefit from having that input there, to keep it all together.

 

[MTPockets]

Hi! 'DragonFly'

Ummm, I honestly and truly kinna' lost tryin' to glue your many comments/questions in this Thread to form a proper question to answer. So? Can I prevail on your patience and ask you to please re-phrase your thoughts ... nice an' tidy-like? ... give me a complete specific question?
What yuh say?
It seems to me that you might be attempting to distinguish between between righteousness via circumcision and righteousness via the law.
Sorry for testing your patience.

In the meantime, I will leave these random comments:
'Episkopos' wrote, "Jesus did not come to save the righteous to repentance, but sinners". I have the suspicion that 'Episkopos' might be incorrect with this stand.
What about the rich young ruler who, when he asked, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?", still "went away grieved"?
Concerning the law, the rich young ruler had stated to Jesus "all these have I observed from my youth".
Under the law, this man could testify that he was indeed righteous.
The disciples were astonished with this event between Jesus and the rich young ruler and asked among themselves, "Who then can be saved?"
Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is simply this: the narrative of Jesus and the rich young ruler clearly indicates that Jesus came to save the righteous also. In my opinion, it's a rather murky distinction to claim, as 'Episkopos' evidently does, that the righteous are 'already whole'.
The answer to the dilemma of 'Episkopos' is found in the verse saying, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect", (Heb 11:40).
There seems to be a lot of Christians having great difficulty comprehending the purposes and intents of God pertaining to His plan of Salvation; they remain unable to distinguish between imputed 'righteousness' and 'eternal life'. While righteousness was obtained at Calvary, 'eternal life' was obtained at the empty tomb. This is why it says that we are raised to a newness of life instead of being made upright by righteousness.
This might appear like splitting hairs, but let me assure you that it is no such thing.
This is why many Christians today still perceive their redemption and resurrection somewhat 'darkly'.

Anyways, can you please rephrase your question for me, 'DragonFly'? I am sensing that your question holds a lot of key insights that we can both share with one another and I'm getting excited to discover what you're meaning to say so that we can jump right into it.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi MT,

Thanks for your patience too. I had not thought about distinguishing different types of righteousness, but I'm open to glean as we go.

As far as Episkopos' thoughts on righteousness, they are more fully laid out in the current thread by that name in Apologetics. I need to go back there, but so far, I've had so much difficulty following his lines of reasoning, that I stopped asking questions which I had thought would help me - had he been able to answer them in a way I could understand.

As far as this thread goes, I cannot make the question any simpler than, is Paul referring to a kind of circumcision of heart that we can do to ourselves?

I suggest that whatever God meant in Deut 10:16, the very fact that He commanded it, made it possible to them (Israelites).

If so, how is this kind of circumcision of heart obtained?

Also, since Paul appears to be including Gentiles, do they obtain it the same way?

I suspect that they do, because its desirability is universally applicable to the human condition.


Are you any further forward?

Oh! MT, just had a thought... the rich young ruler was disobeying the first commandment. You'll notice Jesus didn't mention it.

 

[MTPockets]

Hi MT,

Thanks for your patience too. I had not thought about distinguishing different types of righteousness, but I'm open to glean as we go.

As far as Episkopos' thoughts on righteousness, they are more fully laid out in the current thread by that name in Apologetics. I need to go back there, but so far, I've had so much difficulty following his lines of reasoning, that I stopped asking questions which I had thought would help me - had he been able to answer them in a way I could understand.

As far as this thread goes, I cannot make the question any simpler than, is Paul referring to a kind of circumcision of heart that we can do to ourselves?

I suggest that whatever God meant in Deut 10:16, the very fact that He commanded it, made it possible to them (Israelites).

If so, how is this kind of circumcision of heart obtained?

Also, since Paul appears to be including Gentiles, do they obtain it the same way?

I suspect that they do, because its desirability is universally applicable to the human condition.

Are you any further forward?

Oh! MT, just had a thought... the rich young ruler was disobeying the first commandment. You'll notice Jesus didn't mention it.

Hi! 'DragonFly'
Well, the sense I'm getting is that you are wondering about the possibility of a "circumcision of the heart" which can be voluntarily entered into by man (both Jew and Gentile) and also a "circumcision of the heart" which is provided by Jesus.
Would this be correct?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi MT,

Hi! 'DragonFly'
Well, the sense I'm getting is that you are wondering about the possibility of a "circumcision of the heart" which can be voluntarily entered into by man (both Jew and Gentile) and also a "circumcision of the heart" which is provided by Jesus.
Would this be correct?

You've got it!

Now I will add a further thought, which is that if there is a parallel between this cirucumcision and the baptism of repentance, then the Romans 2 circumcision is as necessary to the Christian - whether it is received before or after the circumcision of the Spirit.

Post # 9 in this thread is my best attempt (so far) at what a Deut 10:16 circumcision might look like both inwardly and outwardly.

 

[MTPockets]

Hi MT,



You've got it!

Now I will add a further thought, which is that if there is a parallel between this cirucumcision and the baptism of repentance, then the Romans 2 circumcision is as necessary to the Christian - whether it is received before or after the circumcision of the Spirit.

Post # 9 in this thread is my best attempt (so far) at what a Deut 10:16 circumcision might look like both inwardly and outwardly.

Yes, this observation of yours is absolutely correct: "there is a parallel between this circumcision and the baptism of repentance".
However, while it's true that there is indeed a parallel, it cannot be said that they are somehow equivalent. (I believe that I've already alluded to this in a previous comment). Nor can it be said that circumcision can replace water baptism and/or vice-versa. They are two distinct realities.
So, 'DragonFly'? Does this suffice for an answer? Have we anything other to add?