Peter the Rock?

[Illuminator]

You removed the scripture!

1 Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV

It doesn’t say both.. it clearly says Jesus is the rock… If you want to believe the church was built off a sinful man, who tried to walk on water but started to drown, a man who denied Christ, a man who was rebuked by Christ, go right ahead. But don’t cut out scriptures that proves you wrong ! So once again.

1 Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 – in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock.

These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

+++

Peter, the fisherman from Galilee, was set free above all from his sense of inadequacy and his bitter experience of failure, thanks to the unconditional love of Jesus. Although a skilled fisher, many times, in the heart of the night, he tasted the bitterness of frustration at having caught nothing (cf. Lk 5:5; Jn 21:5) and, seeing his empty nets, was tempted to pull up his oars. Though strong and impetuous, Peter often yielded to fear (cf. Mt 14:30). Albeit a fervent disciple of the Lord, he continued to think by worldly standards, and thus failed to understand and accept the meaning of Christ’s cross (cf. Mt 16:22). Even after saying that he was ready to give his life for Jesus, the mere suspicion that he was one of Christ’s disciples led him in fright to deny the Master (cf. Mk 14:66-72).

Jesus nonetheless loved Peter and was willing to take a risk on him. He encouraged Peter not to give up, to lower his nets once more, to walk on water, to find the strength to accept his own frailty, to follow him on the way of the cross, to give his life for his brothers and sisters, to shepherd his flock. In this way, Jesus set Peter free from fear, from calculations based solely on worldly concerns. He gave him the courage to risk everything and the joy of becoming a fisher of men. It was Peter whom Jesus called to strengthen his brothers in faith (cf. Lk 22:32). He gave him – as we heard in the Gospel – the keys to open the doors leading to an encounter with the Lord and the power to bind and loose: to bind his brothers and sisters to Christ and to loosen the knots and chains in their lives (cf. Mt 16:19).

All that was possible only because – as we heard in the first reading – Peter himself had been set free. The chains that held him prisoner were shattered and, as on the night when the Israelites were set free from bondage in Egypt, he was told to arise in haste, fasten his belt and put on his sandals in order to go forth. The Lord then opened the doors before him (cf. Acts 12:7-10). Here we see a new history of opening, liberation, broken chains, exodus from the house of bondage. Peter had a Passover experience: the Lord set him free.

Full text: Pope Francis’ homily on the Feast of St. Peter and Paul 2021

Here is the full text of Pope Francis’ homily on the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, delivered at Mass in the Basilica of St. Peter on June 29, 2021.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Of course you have plenty of scriptures proving the Lord didn't set him free, and that's all you post.

 

[Truthnightmare]

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 – in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock.

These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

+++

Peter, the fisherman from Galilee, was set free above all from his sense of inadequacy and his bitter experience of failure, thanks to the unconditional love of Jesus. Although a skilled fisher, many times, in the heart of the night, he tasted the bitterness of frustration at having caught nothing (cf. Lk 5:5; Jn 21:5) and, seeing his empty nets, was tempted to pull up his oars. Though strong and impetuous, Peter often yielded to fear (cf. Mt 14:30). Albeit a fervent disciple of the Lord, he continued to think by worldly standards, and thus failed to understand and accept the meaning of Christ’s cross (cf. Mt 16:22). Even after saying that he was ready to give his life for Jesus, the mere suspicion that he was one of Christ’s disciples led him in fright to deny the Master (cf. Mk 14:66-72).

Jesus nonetheless loved Peter and was willing to take a risk on him. He encouraged Peter not to give up, to lower his nets once more, to walk on water, to find the strength to accept his own frailty, to follow him on the way of the cross, to give his life for his brothers and sisters, to shepherd his flock. In this way, Jesus set Peter free from fear, from calculations based solely on worldly concerns. He gave him the courage to risk everything and the joy of becoming a fisher of men. It was Peter whom Jesus called to strengthen his brothers in faith (cf. Lk 22:32). He gave him – as we heard in the Gospel – the keys to open the doors leading to an encounter with the Lord and the power to bind and loose: to bind his brothers and sisters to Christ and to loosen the knots and chains in their lives (cf. Mt 16:19).

All that was possible only because – as we heard in the first reading – Peter himself had been set free. The chains that held him prisoner were shattered and, as on the night when the Israelites were set free from bondage in Egypt, he was told to arise in haste, fasten his belt and put on his sandals in order to go forth. The Lord then opened the doors before him (cf. Acts 12:7-10). Here we see a new history of opening, liberation, broken chains, exodus from the house of bondage. Peter had a Passover experience: the Lord set him free.

Full text: Pope Francis’ homily on the Feast of St. Peter and Paul 2021

Here is the full text of Pope Francis’ homily on the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, delivered at Mass in the Basilica of St. Peter on June 29, 2021.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Of course you have plenty of scriptures proving the Lord didn't set him free, and that's all you post.

I grew up Catholic… and you are tempting me to expose this religion at the highest levels…
I know what a 40 year old man is doing in a dark room while talking to a 16 year old girl about her sexual sins… confess

We can take this to a different level if you desire.

 

[The Learner]

I don’t twist Scriptures….Gentiles being address IN Christ…applies to me.

Romans 14:20

Easy-to-Read Version

​

20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person.

 

[The Learner]

not keeping up

 

[Phoneman777]

There was a previous discussion by @Taken and @Mr E about Peter being a rock or THE rock. Searching for threads concerning this I could not find any, so I am starting one.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” 14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”​

In post #666 of that discussion Taken didn't look at the full context of the discussion between Peter and Jesus. Taken said, "The Whole HIGHLIGHT of THAT conversation WAS expressly….WHO IS JESUS!". That is such an odd thing to say when Taken did NOT give the whole highlight of that conversation. Taken left out the entire conversation. What about the rest of the conversation and the mentioning of the key? Taken seems to have eluded to the keys when he said, “IS” the KEY that opens the DOOR FOR “the ROCK”. Ie. The SPIRIT of God, The TRUTH of God, TO physically ENTER INTO A MANS HEART." None of that makes any sense to me, but to others it may.

No, Taken, the key that opens the door is not FOR the rock i.e. the spirit of God the truth of God to physically enter into a man's heart. What man taught you that?

The key refers back to Isaiah 22:15-22! The first century Jews knew what Jesus was referring to when he said keys.

Also, Jesus said that YOU are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and I will give YOU the keys and whatever YOU bind on earth and whatever YOU loosen on earth......IMO Taken changes YOU YOU YOU YOU into, Jesus didn't really mean YOU, he meant Peter figured out who Jesus is.

One more tidbit to think about; The name Cephas is an anglicized form of the Aramaic Kepha, which means simply “rock.” There would have been no “small rock” to be found in Jesus’ original statement to Peter.

Thoughts?

Mary

[edited]

Jesus called Peter "petros" which doesn't mean "rock" - it means something like "rolling pebble" pushed to an fro, and we see this later when Jesus calls Peter "Satan" for allowing Satan to sway his thinking concerning Jesus' path to Calvary.

What Jesus called "this Rock" were the words Peter had just spoken: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" - that is the Rock aka "Petra" upon which the church is built, not Peter.

 

[The Learner]

Jesus called Peter "petros" which doesn't mean "rock" - it means something like "rolling pebble" pushed to an fro, and we see this later when Jesus calls Peter "Satan" for allowing Satan to sway his thinking concerning Jesus' path to Calvary.

What Jesus called "this Rock" were the words Peter had just spoken: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" - that is the Rock aka "Petra" upon which the church is built, not Peter.

Matthew 16:18 ►

Text Analysis Go to Parallel Greek Strong's Greek English Morphology 2504 [e] κἀγὼ kagō I also PPro-N1S 1161 [e] δέ de now Conj 4771 [e] σοι soi to you PPro-D2S 3004 [e] λέγω legō say V-PIA-1S 3754 [e] ὅτι hoti that Conj 4771 [e] σὺ sy you PPro-N2S 1510 [e] εἶ ei are V-PIA-2S 4074 [e] Πέτρος, Petros Peter, N-NMS 2532 [e] καὶ kai and Conj 1909 [e] ἐπὶ epi on Prep 3778 [e] ταύτῃ tautē this DPro-DFS 3588 [e] τῇ tē the Art-DFS 4073 [e] πέτρᾳ petra rock N-DFS 3618 [e] οἰκοδομήσω oikodomēsō I will build V-FIA-1S 1473 [e] μου mou My PPro-G1S 3588 [e] τὴν tēn - Art-AFS 1577 [e] ἐκκλησίαν, ekklēsian church, N-AFS 2532 [e] καὶ kai and Conj 4439 [e] πύλαι pylai [the] gates N-NFP 86 [e] ᾅδου hadou of hades N-GMS 3756 [e] οὐ ou not Adv 2729 [e] κατισχύσουσιν katischysousin will prevail against V-FIA-3P 846 [e] αὐτῆς. autēs it. PPro-GF3S

 

[The Learner]

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder" (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is "a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

 

[The Learner]

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

"4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff" (TDNT, 3, 100). "4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

 

[The Learner]

Strong's Greek: 4073. πέτρα (petra) -- a (large mass of) rock

Strong's Greek: 4074. Πέτρος (Petros) -- "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles

Matthew 16:18 Greek Text Analysis

 

[Taken]

Romans 14:20

Easy-to-Read Version

​

20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person.

Rom 14:
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

 

[Taken]

I demonstrated, in post #555, where "Catholic" is in the Bible, that you ran from, and you call it gaslighting.

#555
“It is inferred in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world."
That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.”.

Matt.28:
[16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Are you a “disciple” of Jesus…One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of Jesus?

If so, HOW MANY PEOPLE have you taught and Baptized?

…you call it gaslighting.

Don’t be ignorant. I called YOU a GASLIGHTER.

 

[The Learner]

The Dispute Over Food Sacrificed to Idols (1 Cor 8:1-11:1)

David E. Garland

George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University

...

The Dispute Over Food Sacrificed to Idols (1 Cor 8:1-11:1)

 

[The Learner]

Romans 7:6
In the past the law held us as prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the law. So now we serve God in a new way, not in the old way, with the written rules. Now we serve God in the new way, with the Spirit.

Romans 8:2
That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death.

Romans 8:4
He did this so that we could be right just as the law said we must be. Now we don’t live following our sinful selves. We live following the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He made us able to be servants of a new agreement from himself to his people. It is not an agreement of written laws, but it is of the Spirit. The written law brings death, but the Spirit gives life.

Galatians 3:2
Tell me this one thing: How did you receive the Spirit? Did you receive the Spirit by following the law? No, you received the Spirit because you heard the message about Jesus and believed it.

Galatians 3:5
Does God give you the Spirit because you follow the law? Does God work miracles among you because you follow the law? No, God gives you his Spirit and works miracles among you because you heard the message about Jesus and believed it.

Galatians 5:18
But if you let the Spirit lead you, you are not under law.

 

[Taken]

not keeping up

? Are you okay?

 

[The Learner]

? Are you okay?

No, I am wiped out. getting an ultrsound on 30th, may be a torn rocator cups.

 

[Illuminator]

I grew up Catholic… and you are tempting me to expose this religion at the highest levels…
I know what a 40 year old man is doing in a dark room while talking to a 16 year old girl about her sexual sins… confess

We can take this to a different level if you desire.

What does this have to do with Peter?

 

[Brakelite]

Nope. I never said that and Christianity doesn't teach that.

I beg to differ. In the following you defended Sunday sacredness by quoting the following scripture from 2 Thess. 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

... In order to somehow prove that Sunday was not a man-made tradition inspired doctrine, but apostolic and scriptural. Now follow what I'm saying. There is no written evidence in any epistle whereby any sparkle dated to change the 4th commandment. Therefore, you are inferring that Paul did so by word of mouth.

 

[Illuminator]

Matt.28:
[16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Are you a “disciple” of Jesus…One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of Jesus?

If so, HOW MANY PEOPLE have you taught and Baptized?



Don’t be ignorant. I called YOU a GASLIGHTER.

Because post #555 has you stumped, you resort to childish insults.
Post # 581 has @Truthnightmare stumped and wants to run to an irrelevant topic.

 

[RedFan]

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

"4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff" (TDNT, 3, 100). "4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

Why is this important, if -- as I think we can safely assume -- Jesus addressed Peter in Aramaic? Shouldn't we first be looking at whether Aramaic recognizes the same distinction you show in the Greek? Because if it doesn't, the author of Matthew has made an interpretive leap in quoting Jesus!

 

[Taken]

Because post #555 has you stumped, you resort to childish insults.
Post # 581 has @Truthnightmare stumped and wants to run to an irrelevant topic.

:LOL:
First of all…while YOU complain….YOUR post is off topic.
Secondly….while YOU insult…YOU boo hoo baby whine YOU are insulted.
Thirdly…..Catholic, in any language, is NOT mentioned IN Scripture. FOR manKIND to preach “TO”.
* The UNIVERSE Includes ALL matter, IN the Heavens and Earth.
* The NATIONS are Limited to ManKIND ON the face of the EARTH of this World.
* Your diatribe of Letters of self-proclaimed Catholics is neither Scriptural nor a means to verify Scripture.
* I KNOW what Jesus SAID and to WHOM and WHY….ALREADY TOLD YOU, I can NOT “UNDERSTAND FOR YOU”.

Matt 28:
[18] And Jesus (Lord) came and spake unto them, (disciples) saying, All power is given unto me (Jesus) in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, (world, earth,) baptizing them (people in the world / earth) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

As YOU said…Catholic means UNIVERSE…
* Jesus states He Holds the POWER over the UNIVERSE (Heavens AND Earth).
* Jesus states TO His disciples to go out TO the NATIONS….NOT the UNIVERSE!

Since YOU have Chosen to be Subject to, and INCLUDED with, (the outside of Scriptural Teaching,) of men calling themselves, their church, their doctrine….CATHOLIC…(UNIVERSE)….
….THAT LEADS YOU, right INTO the WHOLE platform of Catholic Doctrine, TEACHING, there are people IN Heaven AND Earth that YOU can communicate with, and purporting A FALSE PRETENSE that that IS what Jesus Taught……No He DID NOT!
….Jesus’ teaching is For People “ON” this EARTH, WHO ARE His Disciples, to SPREAD “His Word of Truth” / TALK TO…to People “OF” ALL NATIONS “OF” this World/ Earth.

And it is widely KNOWN…Catholics routinely, “teach” in Catholic Doctrine, for Catholics to TALK TO (what they claim) IS humans in Heaven….which is NOT Scripturally taught.

So, PER USUAL…I disagree with YOU.
And not once have I disagreed with SCRIPTURE….as YOU say…and makes YOU a GASLIGHTER…an instigator…to TURN people AWAY, from people LIKE YOU, promoting yourself AS A CATHOLIC, who DOES NOT teach Jesus’ Truth, VIA your juvenile hounding, accusations, non-scriptural promotions, hissy fits, gaslighting when people reject “YOUR teaching”.