The Case for Eternal Security

[Wynona]

Christ accomplished two very specific work from the Cross by His death and resurrection. He defeated death for the world. Gave life to the world. This is an objective work. It is imposed on every human being and the world. It is accomplished in the last day, when all men will rise from the dead and a new heaven and new earth will be established.
The second one was for the sacrifice of sin. Because of His obedience He became the eternal sacrifice for sin. So that in a person's lifetime, God can have union with a sinner. When as a believer we sin, we can confess our sins, and being our High Priest, He is faithful to forgive. That forgiveness is ONLY applied when one confesses their sins. There is no automatic forgiveness because He died on the Cross, or that one became a beliver. It should be a daily occurance in a believers life. Unforgiven sin can condemn a believer.

See above.

scripture does not say one is " saved" when one is born again. It says one shall enter into His kingdom, There your journey towards salvation begins. You are never "saved" in this life, but you are being saved. You will inherit that salvation at the end. I Pet 1:3-5.
Where is the text that says a believer either was saved or has been saved relative to his personal relationship as a believer. I might also add that belief or believe is always in the present/active mode, never in the past tense.

Good points

 

[simplefaith1]

Reader,

We can't stop being the Child of our Parents, based on "bad behavior"...

And God took us while we were "yet sinners"... and we became a Son/Daughter of God...before we ever did one good work for Him, and in fact, all we brought to God was our LIFETIME OF SIN.. for Jesus to die for, so that God could have us and keep us.

So, its really the fullness of ignorance to believe that if God saved us when we were SINNERS for LIFE... that if we are not perfect later, in our behavior, that we can stop being Saved.

You can't stop being born again.. .Reader.

In case you missed it this is what I wrote: '''Between the time I broke them,(my parents rules) and said sorry/sought forgiveness for doing so, my place in the family home was never threatened.''''

 

[Wynona]

Its doing iniquity to teach Calvinism in place of God's Grace.

Its doing iniquity to teach that Pastors should be living in a ditch, with a bag of bread and a bottle of water, only.

Its doing iniquity to try to prove that you have to OF YOURSELF< .. Keep your Salvation through self effort...

Or as i told you...

@Wynona .......When you dont believe that Jesus Keeps you saved.. then who does?

Salvation is a covenant. There are two parties involved in a covenant. God does His part, fulfilling His promises. We have a part to play too.

JMany theologians want to make humans completely passive when it comes to salvation. But staying in sin and claiming Jesus paid it all and its alright is false humility.

God bless you, Behold. I wish I could find common ground with you. But I can't.

 

[Behold]

Salvation is a covenant. There are two parties involved in a covenant. God does His part, fulfilling His promises. We have a part to play too.

A Covenant is OFFERED by the one who Created it.

The other party "receives it"...

And in the case of the "New Covenant", its offered as

"THE GIFT of Salvation" and "the GIFT of Righteousness"

You don't WORK for a "Gift" @Wynona

JMany theologians want to make humans completely passive when it comes to salvation.

Real Theologians, teach that Jesus is your Salvation.

That's why '"Real Theologians'" tell you that Jesus is THE Savior.

You can't do that part.
Stop anytime you like., and Trust in Christ to KEEP YOU SAVED, as then your faith in Christ is correct.

But staying in sin and claiming Jesus paid it all and its alright is false humility.

Who else but Jesus can pay for your sin? so that its ALL forgiven and always forgiven?

You can only let Jesus die for it, or you can die in it and pay for it after you die.

No other option available.

God bless you, Behold. I wish I could find common ground with you. But I can't.

Im not your issue.

Its that Cross of Christ that you are not understanding, that is the issue.

Salvation is not part time, and its not based on you trying to perform, after you are saved.

Being SAVED, is exactly that.......and not anything less.

 

[simplefaith1]

Salvation is a covenant. There are two parties involved in a covenant. God does His part, fulfilling His promises. We have a part to play too.

JMany theologians want to make humans completely passive when it comes to salvation. But staying in sin and claiming Jesus paid it all and its alright is false humility.

God bless you, Behold. I wish I could find common ground with you. But I can't.

If anyone could commit adultery, steal, murder, for instance and not be bothered by it and say it is fine, no problem, Jesus paid for all my sins they could not have been born again. Christians must feel bad about sin, God took care of that under the core foundation upon which the christian faith stands. Of course, we do all commit sin alas, for we are not perfect in our flesh

 

[Rightglory]

Yes. There is a similarity between the Purgatory of the Western/Latin/Catholic Church and the Universalism of the Eastern/Greek-speaking/orthodox church. But not the same thing completely. I can speak with complete confidence about Purgatory. So, I am open to correction on that subject. (send help)

But you are in error regarding the Eastern/Greek, Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church declared it heresy by the Fifth Ecumenical Council 553.

 

[Behold]

Christians must feel bad about sin,

Im going to write a Thread as your answer @simplefaith1 , and post it.

Let me write if for you, first.


Title : "sin consciousness" is the carnal mind, that manifests as wrong belief.

Reader,

Paul teaches (the born again).... that "there is now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ".....

Condemnation is not of God, its of SELF, or its of the Devil., or both.

Paul teaches this...

= ""Use not your LIBERTY, for an occasion ... to the flesh""...


1.) Liberty ... "made free from Sin".... "having become the Righteousness of God......IN Christ".

There is no sin found, In Christ,.... and every born again Christian is "in Christ".

So....Where is SIN found?

2) Under the Law,..... as "the law is the power of sin, and the power of sin, is the Law".. That is the "dominion of the Law".

Paul said.... "i would not have KNOWN sin, but the LAW revealed it" (but by the Law)...


What is the Purpose of the Law?

3.) To reveal to you, your sin and sinfulness, so that you will go to God with Faith in Christ = so that Jesus can become your "sin Bearer".

"God hath made JESUS, to BE SIN... for us"..

And once He does....... you are now "made free from Sin"..... and exist...."not under the law....but under GRACE"..

Where is Grace?

Read carefully....

4.) "Where there is no Law, there is no Transgression... (no sin found).


See that Reader?

That is your "Liberty IN Christ"...

How do you abuse that?

"use not your Liberty for an occasion to the FLESH".

Why does Paul say..."flesh""... and not "sin"?

"Because where there is no LAW... there is no SIN"..

5.) The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".


Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a Gift.

Respect it like this......"Present your body, (your life) as a living Sacrifice to God, that is your reasonable service"..

Not to be saved, or stay saved, but because you ARE Saved.

 

[Rightglory]

If you believed what you wrote, you would not be confessing sin. @Rightglory

As if the sin is ETERNALLY dealt with by JESUS on the Cross...., then "confessing it" to get it dealt with AGAIN..., isn't very smart, but it certainly is very Religious.

A sacrifice does not forgive sins. Very simple to understand. Christ forgives sin but ONLY when one confesses their sin. That os why we have a High Priest in the heavens.
If what you say was actually correct then all the sins of the world are forgiven and no one will go to hell. Your theology is not following scripture.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been Saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

New Living Translation
God SAVED you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been SAVED through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Berean Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been SAVED through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

New King James Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

NASB 1995
For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

NASB 1977
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Legacy Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Amplified Bible
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been SAVED [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

And when is that salvation actually given - I Pet 1:3-5.

 

[simplefaith1]

Im going to write a Thread as your answer @simplefaith1 , and post it.

Let me write if for you, first.


Title : "sin consciousness" is the carnal mind, that manifests as wrong belief.

Reader,

Paul teaches (the born again).... that "there is now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ".....

Condemnation is not of God, its of SELF, or its of the Devil., or both.

Paul teaches this...

= ""Use not your LIBERTY, for an occasion ... to the flesh""...


1.) Liberty ... "made free from Sin".... "having become the Righteousness of God......IN Christ".

There is no sin found, In Christ,.... and every born again Christian is "in Christ".

So....Where is SIN found?

2) Under the Law,..... as "the law is the power of sin, and the power of sin, is the Law".. That is the "dominion of the Law".

Paul said.... "i would not have KNOWN sin, but the LAW revealed it" (but by the Law)...


What is the Purpose of the Law?

3.) To reveal to you, your sin and sinfulness, so that you will go to God with Faith in Christ = so that Jesus can become your "sin Bearer".

"God hath made JESUS, to BE SIN... for us"..

And once He does....... you are now "made free from Sin"..... and exist...."not under the law....but under GRACE"..

Where is Grace?

Read carefully....

4.) "Where there is no Law, there is no Transgression... (no sin found).


See that Reader?

That is your "Liberty IN Christ"...

How do you abuse that?

"use not your Liberty for an occasion to the FLESH".

Why does Paul say..."flesh""... and not "sin"?

"Because where there is no LAW... there is no SIN"..

5.) The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace".


Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a Gift.

Respect it like this......"Present your body, (your life) as a living Sacrifice to God, that is your reasonable service"..

Not to be saved, or stay saved, but because you ARE Saved.

Through the law we become(not became) conscious of sin rom3:20



Condemnation is not of God, agreed

The christian is not under law agreed.






‘’’Title : "sin consciousness" is the carnal mind, that manifests as wrong belief.’’’



But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 1Tim5:20



So the elders who were sinning and were to be reproved for sinning, should not have had sin consciousness? Doesn’t sound right to me!!

 

[Behold]

A sacrifice does not forgive sins.

Jesus's Cross is God's Sacrifice for All your sin.

Jesus is the "one time ETERNAL SACRIFICE.. for sin"..

If He has not paid for yours, @Rightglory , then you will when you die.

Don't do that.

 

[APAK]

I don't discount how you understand what you call salvation. It is your view.
For me none of the above is a valid scriptural situation. Using the phrase having been saved or are saved never appears in scripture relative to one's faith walk with the Holy Spirit. Historically the view does not appear until the 16th century with the system called Calvinism. It fits well with his other teaching of predestination. The two ideas cannot be separated, though some think it can be.
Great discussion.

I think it was also...a beneficial discussion

 

[Behold]

TBut those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 1Tim5:20

Get rid of your NIV as its a corrupted piece of Trash and will ruin your faith and remove any chance you'll ever learn correct NT Pauline Theology.

Get a REAL bible that says "those persons" or people.

So the elders who were sinning

Get rid of your NIV.

 

[simplefaith1]

Get rid of your NIV as its a corrupted piece of Trash and will ruin your faith and remove any chance you'll ever learn correct NT Pauline Theology.

Get a REAL bible that says "those persons" or people



Get rid of your NIV.

Some peoples heads are so crammed full of theology there is no room left for discernment

 

[simplefaith1]

Get rid of your NIV as its a corrupted piece of Trash and will ruin your faith and remove any chance you'll ever learn correct NT Pauline Theology.

Get a REAL bible that says "those persons" or people.



Get rid of your NIV.

Here's the KJV:
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

So I guess you'll have to throw that out as well

 

[Behold]

Some peoples heads are so crammed full of theology there is no room left for discernment

Get rid of your NIV., as it wont allow you to learn.
It'll prevent it.

So, we can have a discussion, but not if you use that dumpster food.

 

[Behold]

Here's the KJV:
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Right.

"Them".. or "Persons"..

See that?

There is a REASON that the KJV does not try to teach that the "them" is a CHRISTIAN, while the NIV does.

So, as i said... get rid of that Trash "book".


Let me show you something.. and not just you.

If you read Paul's 13 Epistles.. he never once confesses a sin, or tells you to confess a sin.

NOT ONCE, in 13 Epistles.. And that is because He is the one that teaches SALVATION as "God's GRACE"..

THAT's Paul's Gospel.... and Peter got it later, around Acts 15 and so did JAMES and the rest of the Apostles.


Let me show you...

If you read the account of the Young man who was having sexual intimacy with his step-mother..
Paul spent most of the Epistle talking to the Corinthians about what they should have done.

And if you read it, in a real bible, you'll note that Paul never told this boy, to CONFESS that sin.
He just told him to go away and stay there....
Later, he told Him to come back.

And that proves the young man was a Christian....>"not under the Law". and that is why He didnt have the Elders "rebuke Him in front fo the Church"..


Study a Real Bible, as its filled with what you dont believe is in there, @simplefaith1 .

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen .....I am very tempted to continue going, hehehe....yet I believe I am now being led out of this thread, it was a pleasure, God Bless you and yours,xxx

You have my blessing, sister, xx

/

 

[simplefaith1]

Right.

"Them".. or "Persons"..

See that?

There is a REASON that the KJV does not try to teach that the "them" is a CHRISTIAN, while the NIV does.

So, as i said... get rid of that Trash "book".

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1John2:1 KJV
Who has an advocate with the Father, the unsaved?

 

[Behold]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,

Yes, i know the verse., and to explain it, is going to be hard for you to understand, because you are not grounded in Grace, or acquainted with the principle of "justification by Faith", and "not under the law, but under Grace"..

And its more then just that... also...

Try to see this, @simplefaith1

As if you read 1 John 3:9, it says that the Born again, "can't sin".

So, how does that work. ?? Its because.... "the old man of sin, is crucified with Christ" and the Christian is the "new Creation" and "old things have passed away"..

So, to understand your verse, you have to see it in the context of the verses that John teaches that say you "cant sin", and those verses by Paul that explain the "new Creation" who is "made free from sin".

Then, you have to go to Galatians to see it perfectly....

Paul says, "you are fallen from Grace" and "do not obey the Truth"..

So, all that is related to this..

"whatever is not of Faith, is SIN"..... and what that means is...

The person is trying to NOT SIN.... to remain forgiven of your sin... and that is not necessary, because as John teaches, we already have an "Advocate" in Heaven who is always making intercession for us.

And that means.....>"the blood atonement" that is the "new Covenant", is WHY we the born again are always.... found here.

"where there is no Law, there is no Transgression"..

A.) There is no sin found "IN Christ" and all the born again are "in Christ".

 

[simplefaith1]

Yes, i know the verse., and to explain it, is going to be hard for you to understand, because you are not grounded in Grace, or acquainted with the principle of "justification by Faith", and "not under the law, but under Grace"..

And its more then just that... also...

Try to see this, @simplefaith1

As if you read 1 John 3:9, it says that the Born again, "can't sin".

So, how does that work. ?? Its because.... "the old man of sin, is crucified with Christ" and the Christian is the "new Creation" and "old things have passed away"..

So, to understand your verse, you have to see it in the context of the verses that John teaches that say you "cant sin", and those verses by Paul that explain the "new Creation" who is "made free from sin".

Then, you have to go to Galatians to see it perfectly....

Paul says, "you are fallen from Grace" and "do not obey the Truth"..

So, all that is related to this..

"whatever is not of Faith, is SIN"..... and what that means is...

The person is trying to NOT SIN.... to remain forgiven of your sin... and that is not necessary, because as John teaches, we already have an "Advocate" in Heaven who is always making intercession for us.

And that means.....>"the blood atonement" that is the "new Covenant", is WHY we the born again are always.... found here.

"where there is no Law, there is no Transgression"..

But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ 1Cor8:12