Hardest Commands of Scripture for You?

[Wynona]

Here's a tough one for me to apply.

2 Timothy 2:23-25
King James Version
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;



In other versions, it says quarrel. I am often tempted to think I can convince people by quarreling when I really can't.

 

[Wynona]

Phillipians 2:14-15

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;




In other words, no complaining while going about our daily tasks.

 

[Wynona]

One I find the toughest

Titus 3:1-3​

​

3 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.



I think I know when Im saying something bad in order to speak evil versus saying something beneficial, but negative. When I first read this verse, I was struck by how often I do this, though many consider me a nice person.

 

[marks]

Here's a tough one for me to apply.

So many that come to mind have to do with speech, don't they?

The first one I think of is this:

Ephesians 4:29 KJV
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Much love!

 

[Wynona]

Luke 9:23-24
King James Version
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

 

[Episkopos]

So many that come to mind have to do with speech, don't they?

The first one I think of is this:

Ephesians 4:29 KJV
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Much love!

The key word here is "corrupt"...as in self-interested, or self-seeking. And the edification is not to go to the ego outer man. Too many want to be encouraged in the part of them that God wants to crucify. So much catering to the flesh. Fills the pews but not heaven.

We are not to speak from the outer man ego at all. We are to communicate from one inner man to the other.

God gives grace to the HUMBLE. We have no compunction to give grace to the proud. God resists the proud...and so should we.

So we need context. Would we build what God would destroy?

 

[Wynona]

The key word here is "corrupt"...as in self-interested, or self-seeking. And the edification is not to go to the ego outer man. Too many want to be encouraged in the part of them that God wants to crucify. So much catering to the flesh. Fills the pews but not heaven.

We are not to speak from the outer man ego at all. We are to communicate from one inner man to the other.

God gives grace to the HUMBLE. We have no compunction to give grace to the proud. God resists the proud...and so should we.

So we need context. Would we build what God would destroy?

I want to respond. I do have a critical angle. But I don't know how. Praying about it.

 

[Episkopos]

I want to respond. I do have a critical angle. But I don't know how. Praying about it.

Praying BEFORE posting? A novelty? I hope not. I await your appraisal! :)

 

[Wynona]

Praying BEFORE posting? A novelty? I hope not. I await your appraisal! :)

Can I pm it? It's not too long or crazy.

Im sure you can handle public criticism but it doesn't feel like a good precedent or respectful to criticize a single person in view of everyone.

 

[Episkopos]

Can I pm it? It's not too long or crazy.

Im sure you can handle public criticism but it doesn't feel like a good precedent or respectful to criticize a single person in view of everyone.

This is a discussion group. If you want to pm me go ahead. But I am in the public forum to represent something that I think has been lost over the centuries. In the churches there is control over others. Here we are free. Of course in the church led by God there is freedom. Where the Spirit is there is liberty ...from sin, but also in expression.

Do as you see fit. Do all as unto the Lord.

 

[Wynona]

This is a discussion group. If you want to pm me go ahead. But I am in the public forum to represent something that I think has been lost over the centuries. In the churches there is control over others. Here we are free. Of course in the church led by God there is freedom. Where the Spirit is there is liberty ...from sin, but also in expression.

Do as you see fit. Do all as unto the Lord.

Thanks, I sent a message.

I'm not against all public criticism of people. But I don't feel led to do it now, personally.

 

[Episkopos]

Here's a tough one for me to apply.

2 Timothy 2:23-25
King James Version
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;



In other versions, it says quarrel. I am often tempted to think I can convince people by quarreling when I really can't.

There is more than one level to consider on this.

1. This is addressed to the servant of God...a minister...not just anyone with a religious opinion. It assumes that a person knows the truth for real...and is being opposed.

2. Meekness. People may see this as subservience or self-loathing..but a meek person is just WITHOUT the pride associated with an outer man ego defending itself.

3. Paul is slanting the discussion as a one-sided instruction as to whether one enters into the truth or not. He assumes that the one opposing the servant of God needs instruction.

The problem with taking any verse out of the bible is...who is he talking about? Is everybody the servant of God? Does everyone instruct? Is the argument leading to the truth?

 

[Behold]

The problem with taking any verse out of the bible is...who is he talking about? I

Paul is talking to a genuine convert of His.... who is a young evangelist, and he's teaching him how to deal with a born again believer, who has fallen prey to some heresy.
So, initially, you want to be gentle and approach them in a caring manner, in love for the Brethren, as this one who is "fallen from Grace" can often be gently refocused and rescued back into sound doctrine. (Pauline Theology only).
However, if the person is "too far gone"..... and now has a stronghold in the mind to the point... that they are "subverted within themselves"..as Paul also teaches.... then that one is still a Christian, but they are a heretic and will remain one... so, in that case, you can't allow them to remain in the congregation as they will pollute it with false doctrine that creates more and more strife within the membership.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Here's a tough one for me to apply.

2 Timothy 2:23-25
King James Version
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;



In other versions, it says quarrel. I am often tempted to think I can convince people by quarreling when I really can't.

This applies also I think to marriage. I’ve fought hard sometimes with my husband and then later experienced that same conviction of “I am often tempted to think I can convince people by quarreling when I really can’t.” It always ends the same…my striving to prove my point and then looking back and seeing …I went off the rails saying things to tear down, or attack. It always ends with my not proving anything except I can loose it.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul is talking to a genuine convert of His.... who is a young evangelist, and he's teaching him how to deal with a born again believer, who has fallen prey to some heresy.

Hey how are you today?

Paul is speaking to man who he knows... knows the truth...but needs some encouragement to stand up to those who think they know the truth..which they don't. So Paul qualifies Timothy as a man of God...a servant of God. Those who oppose him oppose God and the truth.

That's clarity.

But modern people HATE the idea of someone speaking as the oracle of God....correcting, rebuking, instructing. They may have experienced spiritual abuse so they are sensitive to ANY confidence in the truth.

So, initially, you want to be gentle and approach them in a caring manner, in love for the Brethren,

As you always do..I can attest to that... warmth and coziness.

as this one who is "fallen from Grace" can often be gently refocused and rescued back into sound doctrine. (Pauline Theology only).

LOL OK now you are joking. I appreciate humour.

However, if the person is "too far gone"..... and now has a stronghold in the mind to the point... that they are "subverted within themselves"..as Paul also teaches.... then that one is still a Christian, but they are a heretic and will remain one... so, in that case, you can't allow them to remain in the congregation as they will pollute it with false doctrine that creates more and more strife within the membership.

I agree with this. A person in bondage to a religious ideology is captured in a bondage that must be overcome by faith within the person...the inner man...as that person hears God's voice calling to him.

When a person is lost in the woods and is going in circles...only crying out will get the person found. So we each have a responsibility to cry out to God.

The heretic has foregone on ever being visited by God and now relies on a religious outer man defense of a salvation scheme that he prefers...and one that caters to his/her self-preservation/self-interest. Beliefs spoil faith..and faith destroys beliefs.

I wish you a good day. :)

 

[Episkopos]

This applies also I think to marriage. I’ve fought hard sometimes with my husband and then later experienced that same conviction of “I am often tempted to think I can convince people by quarreling when I really can’t.” It always ends the same…my striving to prove my point and then looking back and seeing …I went off the rails saying things to tear down, or attack. It always ends with my not proving anything except I can loose it.

It's one thing to have difficulty honouring your husband in a marriage...and another to contend with a man of God in pursuit of a religious ideology that is being built up in resistance to the knowledge of God. Spiritual warfare consists of tearing down strongholds...vain imaginations and everything that exalts itself above an actual knowledge of God. For real. Why do people appreciate good actors? We are used to living from a shallow representation of humanity. We like people to fool us. When we encounter an actual life that's in God..people will usually choose the role of the bad guy...thinking they are just trying to control the situation.

 

[Behold]

Hey how are you today?

Im ok.
You?

Paul is speaking to man who he knows... knows the truth...but needs some encouragement to stand up to those who think they know the truth..which they don't.

Paul would never tell Timothy or Titus, to gently correct a Muslim, or a Satanist.
He would tell them to give them the Gospel, so that they might trust in Christ.

So, Paul is speaking to this young evangelist about helping a Christian who has become indoctrinated (heretic) in some type of false theology.
Therefore, in that case, the Believer is to gently try to lead them back to where they were, in their belief system, before they lost that and became entangled in some heresy.
And once that happens to the believer, there is not a lot of time to help them come out, as false theology has a spiritual power that has a way of hardening in the person's mind, and once that stronghold has occurred, its generally very difficult for them to escape it.

But modern people HATE the idea of someone speaking as the oracle of God....correcting, rebuking, instructing. They may have experienced spiritual abuse so they are sensitive to ANY confidence in the truth.

"christian" Forums are a hotbed of heresy.

And heresy insults the Holy Spirit, and when a Christian encounters this within a teaching that is being cast out, the Holy Spirit in them, becomes sensitized, and this is going to cause "righteous indignation".

2 situations caused Jesus to become very angry, and one was when he had to deal with religious pretenders and their man made theology that pretended to be "truth.
The other was when people who were obsessed on Moses Law were using the Temple in Jerusalem as a $$$$$$$ Shop.

The heretic has foregone on ever being visited by God and now relies on a religious outer man defense of a salvation

Are you referring to the Free Gift of Salvation, that is the "Gift of Righteousness"?

 

[Episkopos]

Im ok.
You?

Peachy.

Paul would never tell Timothy or Titus, to gently correct a Muslim, or a Satanist.
He would tell them to give them the Gospel, so that they might trust in Christ.

Do you think that Timothy was confronting Muslims in the fist century?

So, Paul is speaking to this young evangelist about helping a Christian who has become indoctrinated (heretic) in some type of false theology.
Therefore, in that case, the Believer is to gently try to lead them back to where they were, in their belief system, before they lost that and became entangled in some heresy.
And once that happens to the believer, there is not a lot of time to help them come out, as false theology has a spiritual power that has a way of hardening in the person's mind, and once that stronghold has occurred, its generally very difficult for them to escape it.

For sure. Often, the person who has the stronghold is convinced that it's the other who is in bondage.

"christian" Forums are a hotbed of heresy.

I don't see it that way. Forums are a hotbed of human speculations. Because everybody has an equal say...nobody can tell who is speaking the truth. While everybody claims to know the truth nobody knows who the actual servants of God are.

So it's like a game of...will the real mr X please stand up. There was a game to that effect long ago...where you ask questions and then vote on which contestant was the real deal.

In our game there are real and eternal consequences for getting it wrong. But the game is a long one...if you hang in there. So over time, the truth just might become apparent...or not.

What I see right off the bat is that people don't understand the rules of the game. They think..whoever is confident HAS to be wrong.

And heresy insults the Holy Spirit, and when a Christian encounters this within a teaching that is being cast out, the Holy Spirit in them, becomes sensitized, and this is going to cause "righteous indignation".

There is a corollary to that in the flesh....which can be mistaken for righteous anger,

2 situations caused Jesus to become very angry, and one was when he had to deal with religious pretenders and their man made theology that pretended to be "truth.

Religious pretenders who pretend to know what religious pretenders are. Quite the maze.

The other was when people who were obsessed on Moses Law were using the Temple in Jerusalem as a $$$$$$$ Shop.

People want Jesus to be nice and complimentary.

Are you referring to the Free Gift of Salvation, that is the "Gift of Righteousness"?

You are confusing the gift of grace with the fulness of grace....as per usual. One is without cost and the other costs you EVERYTHING. You only want the free stuff...as part of your religious positioning.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's one thing to have difficulty honouring your husband in a marriage...and another to contend with a man of God in pursuit of a religious ideology that is being built up in resistance to the knowledge of God. Spiritual warfare consists of tearing down strongholds...vain imaginations and everything that exalts itself above an actual knowledge of God. For real. Why do people appreciate good actors? We are used to living from a shallow representation of humanity. We like people to fool us. When we encounter an actual life that's in God..people will usually choose the role of the bad guy...thinking they are just trying to control the situation.

Epi I was just thinking about you and the conversation on the other thread. And here you are. You are missing the whole point. Time and time again on arguing and “right fighting” in my marriage….to be honest by becoming so belligerent and down right ugly in tearing down or criticizing to prove my case. I came away seeing I wounded and even feared the damage I’d done with my words. Every time I came away seeing I used the flesh to muscle my way as if fighting in the flesh could win. Instead I came away seeing how the muscling of the flesh only Bourne shame and regret …you say “tearing down vain imagination” …how there is a time for tearing down strongholds and vain imagination. You miss the point that it was my own strongholds, my own vain imagination that needed to be torn down. Time and time again …I tasted the fruit of what was not good. Even IF I felt I’m right. Even if I was persuaded…fighting in the flesh ended up in the same place. Growing worse and worse. So in answering Wynona what is my hardest command of scripture to follow? It’s thinking when I’m persuaded of something that flesh is the way to war the good fight because I might just bring down my own vain imagination and high-mindedness.

There is a proverb…every man thinks his way is right, but the end is death. To me that is what that passage means about leaving those men alone. If it’s of God it will lead to Life. If it’s of men, it will end in death. We say “I fight with the Spirit.” The end will declare if we are warring against the flesh by using the flesh as a weapon. Just my opinion.

 

[Episkopos]

Epi I was just thinking about you and the conversation on the other thread. And here you are. You are missing the whole point. Time and time again on arguing and “right fighting” in my marriage….to be honest by becoming so belligerent and down right ugly in tearing down or criticizing to prove my case. I came away seeing I wounded and even feared the damage I’d done with my words. Every time I came away seeing I used the flesh to muscle my way as if fighting in the flesh could win. Instead I came away seeing how the muscling of the flesh only Bourne shame and regret …you say “tearing down vain imagination” …how there is a time for tearing down strongholds and vain imagination. You miss the point that it was my own strongholds, my own vain imagination that needed to be torn down. Time and time again …I tasted the fruit of what was not good. Even IF I felt I’m right. Even if I was persuaded…fighting in the flesh ended up in the same place. Growing worse and worse. So in answering Wynona what is my hardest command of scripture to follow? It’s thinking when I’m persuaded of something that flesh is the way to war the good fight because I might just bring down my own vain imagination and high-mindedness.

I understand what this thread is about...but I can't locate you on the radar.

There is a proverb…every man thinks his way is right, but the end is death.

There is a way that seems right to a man...in a logical self-interested way...but that is the way of death.

To me that is what that passage means about leaving those men alone. If it’s of God it will lead to Life. If it’s of men, it will end in death.

But as a servant of God, why would I not try saving someone from death, knowing that the path someone has chosen was not based on the truth? And wouldn't I want someone to help me understand the truth if I was deluded about something?

We say “I fight with the Spirit.” The end will declare if we are warring against the flesh by using the flesh as a weapon. Just my opinion.

The end is too late. There is way to investigate what the Spirit is saying. But that takes the work of seeking, asking and knocking...until the Lord answers.