When are God's Elect Justified?

[Scott Downey]

So being saved by Grace is unconditional sense it happened while one is dead in sin Eph 2:5

Yes, this is implied in scripture in many places.
God gives to us the new heart, not on our works or merit, we do not deserve his favor by our works, we obtain his mercy and favor because of God's GREAT love towards us, who were dead in sins and trespasses.
That is why this is such a great and perfect salvation as it depends not on the man, but on God.

If it depended on us, we would fail and not be saved.
Hebrews 8 says the same thing about the difference between the old and the new covenant.

The people under the OC law, failed to keep the covenant and God found fault with them.

Those under the NC, God does not find fault with them. as He has perfected them in Christ.
The glory of the old covenant, which was glorious, passed away for the exceeding glory of the new, as it glorifies the LORD entirely for our salvation.

Hebrews 8 says

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Another example of our salvation, nothing we did, God did it.
How can it be not more clearly written as here
God made us born again, begotten again, not due to our works.
Born again first, good works created beforehand by God for us to do come later
Testifying of Christ as our Lord and Savior is one of the good fruits of the Holy Spirit at work within us.

Titus 3

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Jesus did not say confessing or speaking was the criteria for salvation,

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[JLB]

You say one is saved by a condition they do,believing. Thats your action a work. Forget about Grace Salvation

Salvation is not by grace alone, but by grace through faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is not by grace alone, but by grace through faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

You say one is saved by a condition they do,believing. Thats your action a work. Forget about Grace Salvation

 

[Scott Downey]

Salvation is not by grace alone, but by grace through faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3 about grace and faith, you know you can have no faith if you have no grace first.
Without that grace being given to you, you will never have faith, believe or be saved.
And we are justified first by grace, just as Titus describes. You cannot believe in Christ without God's grace granting to you your belief, read John 6

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Grace, you have as it comes from God, having Grace, God also gives (grants) you faith.

God uses the means of faith as a sign of His grace that you He has saved.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4, nothing about speaking associated with being saved
People are saved, then they believe and then they speak. Speaking always comes after believing, and people who believe demonstrate that God has saved them. Of course, to fulfil all righteousness, those God saves will bear good fruit, and speaking here is good fruit.

2 Corinthians 4:13
And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak,

Grace comes first, faith after.
People who don't believe in grace justification believe in works as in you must say or do something to be saved.
People speak because of the grace God gave them, not the other way round as in God gives grace because of what they said.
They will do the works as God has given them the grace to do the works.


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[Scott Downey]

Glory Only in the Lord​

26 For [k]you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many [l]noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the [m]base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Jonah 2:9
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.”

 

[Scott Downey]

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Yes, all we who have been called by God to be saved, God gave that holy calling to US before we were born, from the beginning of time, that WE would be His people, believe, and be saved, and no one else.

You cannot believe in Christ unless God grants to you your belief, as a gift.
You do not create your own faith...apart from HIM, you can do nothing, you will have nothing in Him, you will never believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[Scott Downey]

People will say they made themselves acceptable to God and Christ by believing, so then God planted them.

However, it was God who made you acceptable, you did not make yourself acceptable.
God planted you firmly into your belief and faith.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[Scott Downey]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Let's see what scripture also says about this particular speaking.

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus [c]accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

When a person speak this out,

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

You have been given the words to speak by the Holy Spirit, and more so, you as a believer, cannot even say those words except by the Holy Spirit.

This is not unlike speaking prophetically where prophets of old were carried along speaking by the Holy Spirit the Words of God.

Forcing an unbeliever to just say these words is meaningless for salvation, it takes God granting to your belief in Christ, giving to you the new heart that believes in Christ, and then He speaks this into your spirit and you then speak it out. For anyone to say, I did believe and speak by my own choice and power these words is a lie and misrepresentation of God who is at work within you to work and do of His own good pleasure.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

It is an awesome thing to have God doing this in and through you, something a person needs to get a grip on about what is going on in their own life. And your attitude should be one of fear and trembling, as God holds your very existence and future in His hands.

You are given the words to speak as no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Examples
Jeremiah 1:9
Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me,
“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Isaiah 59:21
“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from now and forever.”

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus [c]accursed,
and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

As we read, the speaking here is a person speaking these words by the Spirit of God

 

[JLB]

You say one is saved by a condition they do,believing. Thats your action a work. Forget about Grace Salvation

All you ever have is denial and opinion.


We are saved by grace through.

Not just grace.


One must believe to be saved.


“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31

 

[JLB]

Let's see what scripture also says about this particular speaking.

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus [c]accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

When a person speak this out,

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

You have been given the words to speak by the Holy Spirit, and more so, you as a believer, cannot even say those words except by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit enabling us to confess Jesus as Lord is the grace part of the equation.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


Thats why the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

 

[Scott Downey]

The Holy Spirit enabling us to confess Jesus as Lord is the grace part of the equation.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


Thats why the Gospel is called the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

Yes, it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes.

And this belief you have in Christ is because of His grace for you, because of His great love for you.

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God.

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

And Romans 8 tells us more of this on the behalf of Christ, That Christ would have brethren. Hence God is growing the family of God, for His own sake.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[brightfame52]

All you ever have is denial and opinion.


We are saved by grace through.

Not just grace.


One must believe to be saved.


“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31

You say salvation is conditioned upon what you do that's works.

 

[JLB]

Yes, it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes.

And this belief you have in Christ is because of His grace for you, because of His great love for you.

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God.

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

And Romans 8 tells us more of this on the behalf of Christ, That Christ would have brethren. Hence God is growing the family of God, for His own sake.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I think we are in agreement.

My main point is - A person must hear and believe the Gospel to be saved.


No one is saved without hearing and believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

I think we are in agreement.

My main point is - A person must hear and believe the Gospel to be saved.


No one is saved without hearing and believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

The only reason they hear is God has given them ears to hear.
Like Christ says about those who hear versus those who do not hear.
Even though people hear Christ speaking words, the kind of hearing Christ speaks of is supernatural, that spoken WORD enters deep into their soul and saves them. God's word spoken in that way to a man changes them on the inside. (Born Again living words)

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

John 8, and Christ's teaching on hearing
Only those born of God, begotten, born again are of God and only they believe and have faith. Only they have God as their Father.
Because of this, they love Christ and believe.

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Insight into the truth
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

To have that word aiding in you from the Father is in reference to being 'of God' as God has spoken into you His Word making you alive who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Only then are you of God and only with His abiding word in you, will you hear and believe in Christ.

Before that you will be exactly as these unbelieving Jews who think they have eternal life as found in the scriptures, but they are deceived. as they are dead in sins and trespasses against God. And they as you will not come to the remedy for that death.

You will as they, be unwilling to come to Christ to have life. The unbelieving world abides in death and cannot have life unless God directly commands them to live by His word 'abiding' in them.

"But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you."
And they never will or can have that until God makes them spiritually alive who were dead.
All the salvation confirmations of that state follow on from this beginning point.

John 5
36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

 

[JLB]

The only reason they hear is God has given them ears to hear.

Here is what the scripture says about being saved -


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10