That is pointing to Rev 19.
The pretrib raptured saints in heaven during the trib.
When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?
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The pretrib raptured saints in heaven during the trib.
The AC is "revealed" pretrib.
The falling away is also pretrib, pre rapture.
He takes power after the pretrib rapture, but is revealed pretrib. Only Christians know who he is at his advent. ( revealed by discernment to Christians...not in power)
1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJB - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Firstly, there needs to be asked, Are there any other texts which speak on the same subject and/or events, and if so, Do they shed any additional light or knowledge about what the phrase “with the voice of the archangel” and “with the Trump of God”? Compare the following with the text of 1 Thes. 4:16.
John 5:25 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 KJB - For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 KJB - And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 KJB - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 KJB - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:30 KJB - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
In directly comparing 1 Thessalonians 4:16 to John 5:25-30 KJB, it is seen that similar language is used between the two passages, identifying and clarifying at the same time.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“the Lord himself”
“shall descend from heaven”
“with a shout”
“with the voice of the archangel”
(highest messenger for/from the Father)
“with the trump of God”
“the dead in Christ”
“shall rise first”
(There is also a resurrection for the finally impenitent; Rev. 20:5a,8-9 KJB)
John 5:25-30
“the Son of God (the Father)”, “the Son of man”
(the Father which hath) “sent me”
“shall hear”
“the voice of the Son of God”, “his voice”
(Jesus’ voice is like a trumpet; Rev. 1:10-12 KJB)
“the dead”, “all that are in the graves”,
“they have done good”
“unto the resurrection of life”
“and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”
In this direct comparison, it is easily witnessed, that the phrase “with the voice of the archangel” is the same thing as saying with “the voice of the Son of God”, “his voice”. The Bible declares, “line upon line” (Isa. 28:10,13 KJB), and “comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13 KJB), that the “archangel” (1 Thes. 4:16 KJB) is “the Son of God” (Jhn. 5:25 KJB), since the Son is the highest/chiefest messenger “sent” from the Father (Mat. 21:37; Mar. 12:6; Luk. 20:13 KJB). Others have attempted to say that the “voice of the archangel” is another being, separate and distinct from the Eternal Son, and that the Son sends another finite and ‘created’ messenger to give “voice” for him, but that cannot be substantiated by the two passage/texts in parallel. They only do this, because they think that allowing Jesus to be identified with the words “angel” or even “archangel” somehow equates him to being a finite and created being, but this is simply an incorrect assumption, and a wrong definition of the words. Those words have nothing to do with nature, but only office/position as messenger. Therefore, by the parallelism, the one, is the other, and no other.
Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and John 5:25-30 to Job 14:7-15 KJB:
Job 14:7 KJB - For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 KJB - Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 KJB - Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 KJB - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 KJB - As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 KJB - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 KJB - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 KJB - If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 KJB - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
In these texts there is similar language again used, as before in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and John 5:25-30 KJB. The passage speaks about the death of a man in general, and then also of Job himself. In death, mankind (even Job) breathes their last breath, then descends to the grave, and there to remain in that state, symbolized by sleep in a bed, until God’s wrath (or the seven last plagues; Rev. 11:18; and Rev. 15-16 KJB) be past (over) and the “heavens be no more” (Mat. 24:35; Mar. 13:31; Luk. 21:33; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 6:14 KJB, &c) at the second coming/advent of Jesus. At that time, Job’s Saviour “shalt call” (give voice with a shout, as the messenger for God the Father) then would the dead, even Job, be remembered by His redeemer who comes to claim him, as the “desire to the work of [his] hands”, and so be resurrected, “live again” and have his “change” come, from corruptible to incorruptible, as Job also states elsewhere: Job 19:25-27 KJB.
Job 19:25 KJB - For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 KJB - Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Those who incorrectly teach immortal soul/spirit theology (Gen. 3:4; contrary to Gen. 2:17; Job 4:17; Psa. 146:4; Ecc. 9:5,6,10; Col. 3:3-4; 1 Thes. 4:17 KJB), do not really understand what they do to the Everlasting Gospel itself, and the old man of sin, nor do they fully comprehend what it does to the doctrine of the resurrection in the life now, and in the future to come. In any case, those texts further demonstrate that it is God, the Redeemer, that gives His “call” or voice, and not another, to resurrect the dead.
Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27 to 1 Corinthians 15:51-55,57 KJB:
The very words of Paul, by the Holy Ghost, in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 KJB, are in actuality brought directly over from the inspired, of God, passages in Job. The exact same language and even words are utilized to describe the events at the second coming/advent of Jesus Christ. Paul mentions “sleep”, “death”, “grave”, “mortal”, “God”, “Lord”, “raised”, “change”, and also uses the same words or phrasing as found in 1 Thes. 4:16 KJB, when writing “trump” or “trumpet”. The resurrection in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 KJB, along with the “trump”, or “trumpet”, and the “victory” thereby, are given to no other being than that of the Son, the “Lord Jesus Christ”.
Compare 1 Thes. 4:16; Jhn. 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-57 to the various Psalms below:
Again, the Psalms give the one and the same “voice” as all the previous texts and/or passages in what they have provided. It is God that comes, calls with His own voice “to the earth” from above, and does not “keep silence”. It is God that goes back “up”, with the saints, with a “shout” and “with the sound of a trumpet”. The resurrection is mentioned in the terms of “when I awake, with thy (God’s) likeness”. Where in any of the texts that have been given so far is there another being speaking other than Deity, or sounding a trumpet other than Deity? The only person that is both messenger for Deity and Deity Himself mentioned directly in those texts, is the Son of the Father. What other title or position could be given than 1 Thessalonians 4:16 has given Him, the “archangel”? John’s Gospel is similar in utilizing the “Word” (Jhn. 1:1 KJB), which is a Personal message sent of God the Father by the presence of the Son.
Compare 1 Thes. 4:16; Jhn. 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-57 & the Psalms to the Prophets:
Everywhere, from the NT, to the OT, from the Psalms, to the Prophets, the same things are spoken of. In Zechariah 9:14 KJB, it is plain, that “the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet”, and in Jeremiah 25:30 KJB, it is clear, that it is God who shall “utter his voice from his holy habitation”, and “he shall give a shout”, and not another. When God comes, the dead shall be raised, and the earth would “cast out the dead” and “no more cover her slain”.
Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27 to 1 Corinthians 15:51-55,57 KJB:
1 Corinthians 15:51 KJB - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 KJB - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 KJB - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 KJB - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 KJB - O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:57 KJB - But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The very words of Paul, by the Holy Ghost, in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 KJB, are in actuality brought directly over from the inspired, of God, passages in Job. The exact same language and even words are utilized to describe the events at the second coming/advent of Jesus Christ. Paul mentions “sleep”, “death”, “grave”, “mortal”, “God”, “Lord”, “raised”, “change”, and also uses the same words or phrasing as found in 1 Thes. 4:16 KJB, when writing “trump” or “trumpet”. The resurrection in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 KJB, along with the “trump”, or “trumpet”, and the “victory” thereby, are given to no other being than that of the Son, the “Lord Jesus Christ”.
Compare 1 Thes. 4:16; Jhn. 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-57 to the various Psalms below:
Psalms 17:15 KJB - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Psalms 47:5 KJB - God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
Psalms 50:3 KJB - Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalms 50:4 KJB - He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
Again, the Psalms give the one and the same “voice” as all the previous texts and/or passages in what they have provided. It is God that comes, calls with His own voice “to the earth” from above, and does not “keep silence”. It is God that goes back “up”, with the saints, with a “shout” and “with the sound of a trumpet”. The resurrection is mentioned in the terms of “when I awake, with thy (God’s) likeness”. Where in any of the texts that have been given so far is there another being speaking other than Deity, or sounding a trumpet other than Deity? The only person that is both messenger for Deity and Deity Himself mentioned directly in those texts, is the Son of the Father. What other title or position could be given than 1 Thessalonians 4:16 has given Him, the “archangel”? John’s Gospel is similar in utilizing the “Word” (Jhn. 1:1 KJB), which is a Personal message sent of God the Father by the presence of the Son.
Compare 1 Thes. 4:16; Jhn. 5:25-30; Job 14:7-15, 19:25-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-57 & the Psalms to the Prophets:
Isaiah 26:19 KJB - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isaiah 26:20 KJB - Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isaiah 26:21 KJB - For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isaiah 27:13 KJB - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 25:30 KJB - Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
Jeremiah 25:31 KJB - A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 9:14 KJB - And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
Zephaniah 1:14 KJB - The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:15 KJB - That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zephaniah 1:16 KJB - A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Everywhere, from the NT, to the OT, from the Psalms, to the Prophets, the same things are spoken of. In Zechariah 9:14 KJB, it is plain, that “the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet”, and in Jeremiah 25:30 KJB, it is clear, that it is God who shall “utter his voice from his holy habitation”, and “he shall give a shout”, and not another. When God comes, the dead shall be raised, and the earth would “cast out the dead” and “no more cover her slain”.
Revelation 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden, and in his hand a sharp sickle."
Jesus is the One sitting on the white cloud and holding the golden crown, and He’s coming with His saints. It’s time for the Harvest!
Sorry. You are determined to omit verses.
Only pretrib rapture allows for rev 14:14, mat 24 ( 2 gatherings),and mat 25 the 10 virgin parable
No other position incorporates the pretrib rapture verses
They are jews.
Ethnic jews.
They are harvested after the 144k firstfruit Jews.
Verse 14 is the Jewish main harvest .
They follow the firstfruits jews who are gathered to heaven (earlier, around verse 4 or so.)
The coming you are looking at is way, way different.
That one is on horses with millions of saints blackening the sky.
Think about it.
Ask yourself why no postribber goes there.
You can listen to every one of them on you tube.
None go there.
Postrib rapture doctrine is poorly thought out.
Only the dead in christ are raised and raptured at the pretrib rapture.
Your verses are the dead raised after the millennium...and that resurrection is unto judgement.
I am seeing a lot of this.
A total misunderstanding of what the rapture is. It is the gathering of the bride.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The AC will not be revealed pretrib because the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st seal is the rider on the white horse who is given the stephanos crown and goes forth conquering and to conquer. That is one of the two horns of the beast of the earth.
The beast of the sea is Nimrod who was and is not and will come again.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The second coming occurs the 6th seal before the Day of the Lord. You are confusing the coming of the Lord at the end of wrath with the coming of the Lord before wrath.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You point is completely mute as escaping all these things that shall come to pass and standing before the son of man has to take place long before the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. Escaping all these things means the rapture of the Church will happen before the seals are opened.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The hour of temptation is the great tribulation.
You are confusing the coming of the Lord for the second harvest with the coming of the Lord pre trib.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You attempt to manipulate the Greek in this part of the verse " thou shouldest keep them from the evil". And then claim it is in this part of the verse. "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,"
As I said the disciples have to be in the world to spread the Gospel.
My doctrine hinges on the written word of God. Your doctrine has been passed down from unbelieving men that did not believe God would keep His Word to Israel.
Oh boy. I can disprove what you believe countless ways. Why is it that you and your buddy always have to change the truth of the scripture to try to fool people. Like the time you claimed that "Great" was the Greek translation for "rab" instead of "MANY". You knew that was incorrect, but you attempted to mislead believers with false information. You have to ask yourself. Are you really seeking the truth?
He is in power at the first seal.
He is revealed way before the seals.
Obama is a good example.
Revealed way before he was in power.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No idea what you're talking about. Clearly, there is no need to be taken out of the world in order to be kept from temptation and evil. That is obvious. So, to try and say otherwise is just ridiculous.
No, it hinges on your active imagination that contradicts the written word of God.
I do my own studies and don't base them on what others believe, so this is just yet another lie that you have told.
Zero ways is countless? LOL. You are completely delusional. I mean completely. 100% delusional. Your doctrine is a big joke.
It's Hebrew, not Greek. You have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about. I did not say that. That is yet another lie from you. You are a liar. I simply said it is sometimes translated as "great" and sometimes as "many". From what I saw in looking up the verses where the word was translated, a majority of them translated it as "great". I shouldn't have even mentioned that because you think that's part of the point I was making, which it wasn't. The point I was making is that when the word is translated as "many", it doesn't mean "many, but not all" and I showed examples of that which you just ignore.
Knew what was incorrect? It is a fact that the Hebrew word rab is sometimes translated as "great" and sometimes as "many" in the Old Testament. Look it up for yourself. I even showed you that. Did you need me to show you that again? But, again, that isn't even the point at all. The point is that when it is translated as "many", it doesn't mean many, but not all.
