No Exceptions: Jesus Was Talking to You
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Actually Jesus did allow worship of Himself.
You can read the account of the Harlot who crawled across the Floor on her hands and knees, in public, .. to wash Jesus's feet with her tears, and dry them with her hair.
That's incredible worship.......in public.
You can read the account of Thomas who when he was kneeling before Jesus said : "My Lord and my God".
Another time Jesus equated Himself to God by saying...>"you believe in God....believe also in Me".
There are others, but those 3 are very clear.
I meant to say James 4:4. Not James 4:8. The verse that says friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God.
I also have this to add to what the OP said about hunger in the word, and those who just say profess the faith but are questionable.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I also have this to add to what the OP said about hunger in the word, and those who just say profess the faith but are questionable.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Never would he allow such a thing because it would be blasphemy to worship a man in place of God. (Exodus 20:3) Jesus was a man. When honor or reverence is offered to a human it is obeisance, not worship…it’s the same word in Greek.
It is what the magi offered to the infant son of God….not worship.
It is obeisance offered by the angels who knew exactly who Jesus was…..the angels said to “worship God”, not Jesus.
There are apparently two accounts of women approaching Jesus with a view to honoring him for the role he was to play as redeemer and the example that he left.
The woman who was at the house of Simon the Leper was anointing Jesus for his burial. She is not named but is simply said to be a sinner. (Luke 7:36-50) Matthew, Mark and Luke mention this woman, but Jesus says of her when the disciples complained about the cost of the oil she poured on him…..
”Why do you try to make trouble for her? She did a fine deed toward me. 7 For you always have the poor with you, and you can do them good whenever you want to, but you will not always have me.8 She did what she could; she poured perfumed oil on my body beforehand, in view of the burial. 9 Truly I say to you, wherever the good news is preached in all the world, what this woman did will also be told in memory of her.” (Mark 14:3-9)
The second woman was named as Mary, the sister of Lazarus….who was not a sinful woman.
And she had the same idea that this oil was an anointing for his burial. (John 12:1-8)
There is a difference difference between anointing the Christ for his death and burial…..and worship.
Neither of these women were worshipping Jesus.
Thomas did not have a different belief to all the other apostles…..who all understood who their God was…..
1 Cor 8:5-6…..
”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”
Thomas’ surprised reply was not the basis for a doctrine that the other apostles did not uphold.
Sorry…not “very clear” at all in context…..try again. That last one is just pathetic. Jesus did not equate himself with God at all….If one believes in God, then Jesus’ statement there is redundant….if you believe they are one and the same God, then why the need to also believe in Jesus? All that he taught was from his Father, who was also his God. (John 7:15-16; John 20:17; Rev 3:14)
If you are a teacher, then I feel for your students….you claim to know the Bible, but it is apparent that your knowledge is rather superficial and stunted.
PS95
Well-Known Member
He certainly did. Yes, many others!
Luke 24: 52 and they after worshipping Him returned to Jerusalem with great joy and were continually in the Temple praising God.
And it is the same word used for worship of the Father. JWs however, while they claim to translate words the same- do not tell the truth. It states this as a fact in their own interlinear . BUT in every single instance where this same word is used, they translate it as obeisance when it pertains to the Son -and worship if it pertains to the Father.
proskuneó: To worship, to bow down, to prostrate oneself
Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Pronunciation: pros-koo-NEH-oh
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Definition: To worship, to bow down, to prostrate oneself
Meaning: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.
Word Origin: From πρός (pros, meaning "towards") and κυνέω (kuneó, meaning "to kiss")
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H7812 - שָׁחָה (shachah): To bow down, to prostrate oneself, often used in the context of worship.
Usage: The Greek verb "proskuneó" primarily means to worship or to show reverence, often through physical gestures such as bowing down or prostrating oneself. In the New Testament, it is used to describe acts of worship directed towards God, Jesus Christ, or, in some contexts, false gods or idols. The term conveys a deep sense of reverence, adoration, and submission to a higher authority.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Greek culture, "proskuneó" was a common practice of showing respect and homage, especially towards deities and rulers. This act often involved bowing or prostrating oneself as a sign of submission and reverence. In the Jewish context, worship was directed exclusively towards Yahweh, and the physical act of bowing was a significant expression of devotion and humility. The early Christians adopted this term to express their worship of Jesus Christ, emphasizing His divine nature and authority.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Here is a link to the full list of this word, proskuneo in the NT.
Jane put me on her shun list because I was raised as a Jw. So this is a gift from me to you for Jane who will fight it til she dies, unfortunately, she can never ever be wrong. JWs are very self-righteous people. We can always hold out hope..
She will likely twist the rest of the scriptures to try to make her claim. And utterly ignore that JWs lie in their own interlinear where they state the claim to always translate words the same.
προσκυνέω
to do reverence, or homage by kissing the hand; in NT to do reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52; to pay divine homage, worship, adore, Mt. 4:10; Jn. 4:20, 21; Heb. 1:6; to bow one's self in adoration, Heb. 11:21
www.billmounce.com
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yet it happened.
You can read the account of the Harlot who crawled across the Floor on her hands and knees, in public, .. to wash Jesus's feet with her tears, and dry them with her hair.
That's incredible worship.......in public.
You can read the account of Thomas who when he was kneeling before Jesus said : "My Lord and my God".
Another time Jesus equated Himself to God by saying...>"you believe in God....believe also in Me"..
And i'll show you another one.. and notice Who is calling Himself : LORD
Jesus, is referring to Himself as ........"LORD"... and that is God's Title also, in the Old Testament.
So, do you worship "Jesus THE Lord"?.......... Does your Cult @Aunty Jane ?
The Apostles did, because JESUS is THE Lord., and notice in the verse, He was not crucified yet and risen yet.
New International Version
“You call me ‘Teacher’ and LORD‘’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
New Living Translation
You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you are right, because that’s what I am.
English Standard Version
You call me Teacher and LORD and you are right, for so I am.
Berean Standard Bible
You call Me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, because I am.
Berean Literal Bible
You call Me Teacher and LORD, and you say rightly, for so I am.
King James Bible
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
New King James Version
You call Me Teacher and LORD, and you say well, for so I am.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes, ive noted this.
This one in particular, likes to write a lot of nothing.......Long posts, filled from top to bottom with nothing in them but JW's mind closed nonsense.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
These have been addressed and repeating them doesn’t make them any more correct. None of them say what you assume that they do. This shows the depth of your study….wafer thin.
You keep coming back with more flimsy excuses….
How does Scripture explain other Scripture concerning this title “Lord”.….”kyrios”?
Is it only used for God? Let’s see….
The parable in Matt 18 is interesting in its use of this word……the very same word that you insist is only a title for God…..it isn’t.
Matt 18:25…
”But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord G2962 commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.”
Mat 18:27
“And the lord G2962 of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:31
“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord G2962 all that had happened.
Mat 18:32
“Then summoning him, his lord G2962 *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:34
“And his lord, G2962 moved with anger, handed him overto the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.”
Now when Jesus condemned the Jews for their failure to accept him as their Lord and savior, were they rejecting God or were they rejecting his son?
Mat 21:9
“The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting,
“Hosanna to the Son of David;
BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; G2962” (Strongs)
Did Jesus say “blessed is he who comes in my name”? or was it the name of “the Lord” of whom Jesus himself was a “servant”? (Acts 4:27) As a servant of his God, Jesus also had a “Lord”.
Sarah called Abraham “lord” out of respect for his headship. (1 Peter 3:5-6)
Showing the headship arrangement Paul stated….
”But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” (NASB)
So Christ has a head over him, making him subject to his God and Father.
So the title “kyrios“ is not a substitute for Yahweh, because Strongs gives as its primary definition…..
“he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
- the possessor and disposer of a thing
- the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
- in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
- is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master”
No!…that would be blasphemy…..I worship the same God that Jesus did…..the one who is still his God even after his return to heaven….
Rev 3:12…
”He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.“ (NASB)
Revelation was written long after Jesus’ ascension.
Does God have a God even in heaven? You speak about nonsense, yet you fail to recognise your own.
So let me ask you who does your cult worship?
Sorry, but your argument again fails.…and it shows the depth of your Bible study…..superficial to say the least. Why do you bother?
LOL….I am not the only one reading the replies here, and so far your score is not terribly impressive to anyone but yourself and the odd person who also has very little idea about what Scripture teaches.
He/she professes to know what JW’s believe since they claim to have been raised as one, but their ideas are so way off it’s little wonder that they never progressed….they were obviously not listening to anything their parents taught them. Their hate speech is contemptible. I would also want nothing to do with them…
We are the opposite of ‘close minded’…..we study the Scriptures for ourselves and are encouraged to do research, which I love to do…..if you love the subject matter it is very enjoyable to find the diamonds in those large piles of broken glass that exist in Christendom. I withdrew from that disunited rabble decades ago.
The truth has set me free from what still shackles you.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Ignoring reality doesn't help you.
It just reveals you.
Actually, if you talk to a JW, its like talking to a Zombie...... they just wait for that moment when they can give you their Programming.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
And what do you reveal about yourself? Dare we ask?
Deflection does not answer the questions.
Attacks are not defense…..your defense is pathetic. You barely know a few tired Bible verses, let alone what they mean.
And of course no one could accuse you of such a thing?
Behold
Well-Known Member
I gave you actual details from the Scriptures.
Its natural for a JW to refer to these as "excuses", and have no ability to respond, other then to just avoid it.
I didnt quote any parables.
Its not blasphemy to refer to the Lord, as The Lord...both before and after He rose again....as Jesus is "Lord of all"., and every knee is going to bow before him, including you, and your little man-made confused group... @Aunty Jane
My Messianic Congregation worship the Living Jesus, and His Father.
I just teach.
And I show you different NT situations, where people, including Apostles, worshipped Jesus, both before and after He rose from the dead, bodily.
And i showed you were Jesus allows it, and refers to Himself as Lord.
You've not been able to address any of this, and can't.
JW's, the cult, is actual your "shackle."
Behold
Well-Known Member
As i pointed out to you, (and the members here on the Forum can read)......I showed you several examples, where Jesus allows worship, both before he was resurrected and after.
And i showed you from the NT, prior to Jesus's death, where He refers to Himself as "LORD", and that is God's reference to Himself also.
See, Jesus is the GOD-Man, "GOD manifested in THE FLESH">....and this is why He can truthfully designate Himself as "LORD"... before and after He died and rose again, bodily.
= You have no answer for this., because your little cult group has no answer for it.
They own your mind, and that is what you can offer. (Your Programming) ...and nothing else.
Ive made no defense.
I simply posted to you what Jesus said, and what others did.....as shown by the NT VERSES, both before He died and after He rose from the dead, bodily.
You refered to ALL this as "excuses" because you have no way to even answer it.
So, you deflect, and dodge.
Typical of you.
See you there next time. @Aunty Jane
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I never said that…..I said I do not worship God’s son, but that I worship the same God that he did….if you are going to reply, at least get your facts straight instead of just answering yourself.
My congregation is a world wide brotherhood, who serve “the only true God” and observe the teachings of “the one he sent”. (John 17:3) Where will I find your brotherhood outside of Israel?
You showed me your interpretation of the examples you provided. I showed you from other Scripture and Strongs Concordance that your interpretation is in error. You simply ignore what you cannot address.
And I showed you what the title “Lord“ meant to those who used it in Bible times…..it isn’t an address as a substitute for Yahweh. “Lord” is the equivalent of calling someone “Sir” out of respect. Slaves called their masters “lord”, as Sarah called Abraham “lord”…it’s a title of respect.
Not a single scripture says so without a lot of tap dancing.
Jesus was not raised “bodily” as in reclaiming the body he surrendered as a sacrifice.
He was raised as a spirit (1 Pet 3:18) because flesh and blood cannot exist outside of earth’s atmosphere. He returned to spirit form, as he was in heaven “with God” “in the beginning”.
That is obvious…..you have none.…and you bluff to cover that up.
I answered all of it, but you just choose to ignore scripture that disagrees with your chosen beliefs. That is your choice.
You youself are the master of “deflection and dodge” as your posts reveal.
You’re not fooling anyone.
Wait, don't JW's believe that the angel Michael came to earth to be Jesus, and then returned to being Michael? So that they don't actually believe in a real Jesus? Just that this was the life force of Michael as someone else?
Heresy, pure and simple. Anti-christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Let me help you remember what you actually said.
You said that its "blasphemy" to do it..
So, ive given you, about 5 instances where Jesus was worshipped, and referred to Himself as "LORD".
Let me give you another one, as you are very easy to explose.....typical of a JW.
As soon as the 3 Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, = “they bowed down and Worshipped Him” (Matthew 2:11)
Behold
Well-Known Member
Ive not shown "interpretations".
Ive shown you were a Harlot worshipped Jesus, in public, on her knees......and Jesus allowed it in front of a group of Pharasees..... and ive shown you where an Apostle knelt before Jesus and said.. "My LORD and my GOD".
And ive just shown you were the 3 Magi, "worshipped" the infant ("God in the Flesh") when he was barely born.
Behold
Well-Known Member
You're not very honest, but you sure do like to hear yourself talk.
See,
Ive shown you were a Harlot worshipped Jesus, in public, on her knees......and Jesus allowed it in front of a group of Pharasees..... and ive shown you where an Apostle knelt before Jesus and said.. "My LORD and my GOD".
And ive just shown you were the 3 Magi, "worshipped" the infant ("God in the Flesh") when he was barely born.
Behold
Well-Known Member
1.) Ive shown you were a Harlot worshipped Jesus, in public, on her knees......and Jesus allowed it in front of a group of Pharasees.....
2.)And ive shown you where an Apostle knelt before Jesus and said.. "My LORD and my GOD".
3.) And ive just shown you were the 3 Magi, "worshipped" the infant ("God in the Flesh") when He was barely born.
= You have no answer, @Aunty Jane , other then to claim that these verses are "excuses", and continue some mindless (programmed) rant abouit "blasphemy".
So, do you begin to see what being a mental slave to JW cultism does to someone?
Im glad you are doing what you are doing, as the members here, some of them....are very caught up in ....>>"well, all that matters is that we show love.......so, if someone is lying, if someone is a rabid tool of the DEVIL..... and if their cult is of the DEVIL.....weeellllllllll..... we just must remember that all that matters is LOVE LOVE LOVE"..
And of course that is "carnal baby" nonsense, that has no relationship with the NT.
None.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I know that these sorts of comments come from ignorance….because Jesus has many names and roles, used by his Father, as his most trusted “servant”. (Acts 4:27-30) Is God his own servant? You tell me….
Could Jesus be Michael in his heavenly role, but be named Jesus in his earthly one? Does Jesus have a new name now that has completed his mission on earth successfully?
Rev 3:7-13 is an address to one of the seven congregations….
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’“ (NASB1995)
If he was “the son of God” before his brief time on earth, what was to stop him resuming his position once he returned? If he still calls his Father “my God” in heaven then he is not his own God…..that is anti-Christ heresy.
Only two are said to command the angels….Michael and Jesus. There is only one archangel and Paul says that Jesus descends with an “archangel’s voice” to call his elect to heaven….(1 Thess 4:15-17) Why would Jesus have “an archangel’s voice” instead of his own?
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