Was Christ at any time, under the dominion of death, did He die? If so, how did he overcome His own death?

[Scott Downey]

Romans 6:9
knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

Only after His resurrection did death no longer have dominion over Christ. Who raised Christ? Many scriptures tell us God raised Him from the dead.
Of course, Christ is also God.

Jesus actually did die. HE said he was dead!

Is there a false teaching Christian myth that says Jesus was not actually dead? Yes, there is. Might be one of the reasons HE was to be in the heart of the earth 3 days and nights, with a sealed tomb.

When does the last enemy death get destroyed?
At the return of Christ, at the resurrection, and the new earth and new heavens will have no more death, corruption, decay.

Then this happens in Romans 8

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 

[Scott Downey]

I have had interaction with some who say Christ did not really die, even though He was made by God to be fully like the children of God and had a flesh and blood body. And do not go beyond what is written, and do not presume to think you know my own thoughts, that happens all too often on forums. I have seen some responders get angry simply by posting the scriptures.

Hebrews 2

The Son Made Lower than Angels​

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[bdavidc]

According to Scripture alone, Jesus Christ did physically die, and He was indeed under the dominion of death in the sense that His human body experienced death. Romans 5:8 says, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” His death was real and necessary as the atoning sacrifice for sin. However, Jesus was not overcome by death, He overcame it. Though His body was buried, His Spirit remained alive and in full authority (Luke 23:46, 1 Peter 3:18–19). Death could not hold Him, as Acts 2:24 declares, “Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.” He rose bodily from the grave on the third day, just as He foretold (Matthew 16:21), demonstrating His power over death and confirming that He is “the resurrection, and the life” (John 11:25).

While Scripture does say that God raised Him from the dead (Acts 2:24), it also affirms that Jesus had full authority over His own life and death. In John 10:17–18, Jesus said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” This clearly shows that He was never out of control or helpless. In addition, Jesus said in John 2:19, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” referring to the temple of His body. Romans 8:11 also shows that the Holy Spirit was involved in the resurrection. The Godhead works in perfect unity, not contradiction.

The idea that Jesus was merely a passive victim, waiting to be rescued, contradicts what He said about His divine authority. He is life itself (John 14:6), and death had no power to hold Him. To suggest otherwise diminishes the truth of His victory and undermines the full glory of His resurrection as revealed by Scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

The devil before Christ's resurrection had the power of death. All died because of sin.
Through Adam sinned entered the world, due to the work of the devil, And Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

Some believe Satan has no power anymore, But Christ tells Paul something of note here

Paul Recounts His Conversion​

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.

17 I will [b]deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I [c]now send you,

18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified[d] by faith in Me.’

 

[Scott Downey]

According to Scripture alone, Jesus Christ did physically die, and He was indeed under the dominion of death in the sense that His human body experienced death. Romans 5:8 says, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” His death was real and necessary as the atoning sacrifice for sin. However, Jesus was not overcome by death, He overcame it. Though His body was buried, His Spirit remained alive and in full authority (Luke 23:46, 1 Peter 3:18–19). Death could not hold Him, as Acts 2:24 declares, “Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.” He rose bodily from the grave on the third day, just as He foretold (Matthew 16:21), demonstrating His power over death and confirming that He is “the resurrection, and the life” (John 11:25).

While Scripture does say that God raised Him from the dead (Acts 2:24), it also affirms that Jesus had full authority over His own life and death. In John 10:17–18, Jesus said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” This clearly shows that He was never out of control or helpless. In addition, Jesus said in John 2:19, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” referring to the temple of His body. Romans 8:11 also shows that the Holy Spirit was involved in the resurrection. The Godhead works in perfect unity, not contradiction.

The idea that Jesus was merely a passive victim, waiting to be rescued, contradicts what He said about His divine authority. He is life itself (John 14:6), and death had no power to hold Him. To suggest otherwise diminishes the truth of His victory and undermines the full glory of His resurrection as revealed by Scripture.

Absolutely, Christ though fully submitted Himself to the will of God. So even though he could do that, He did not do that, so Christ was passive and DID NOT exercise His own will to preserve His life. He said His will is to do the Father's will.

Luke 22:42
saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Isaiah 53

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.

8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

****************************

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts 2

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Only after God raised Him up, did Christ receive all authority and power in heaven and on earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Soldiers Are Bribed​

11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

The Great Commission​

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

 

[Scott Downey]

And another one some have difficulty believing, Christ learned obedience to God the Father by the things he suffered.
And having been perfected, His calling on Him from the Father to be our High Priest was fulfilled.
So, while Christ had the power to walk away from the cross, He refused that and committed Himself to the will of His Father.

Hebrews 5

A Priest Forever​

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”
6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ did the Father's will and became obedient to the point of death. While He had the power to take up His life again, this He refused. He fully trusted in God to deliver Him from death to raise Him up again from the dead. Because of that, the Father gave to the Son all authority and power in heaven and on earth.

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Scott Downey]

For practical application to our state of existence with God, this.

Hebrews 12
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Discipline of God​

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the [c]chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

 

[Jay Ross]

Could I boldly suggest that a better Paraphrasing of Romans 6:9 would read like this: -

Romans 6:9: - Knowing that Christ, having been awoken from being a corpse, will not physically die again. That the {law of the} second death now no longer rules over Him.​

I believe that the above paraphrasing of this verse expresses the intended context of this verse and makes it clearer for all to understand.

​

​

 

[Aunty Jane]

Absolutely, Christ though fully submitted Himself to the will of God. So even though he could do that, He did not do that, so Christ was passive and DID NOT exercise His own will to preserve His life. He said His will is to do the Father's will.

Luke 22:42
saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

This just blows my mind…..read what you wrote….
”Christ fully submitted himself to the will of God”…..how does God “submit” to himself?

“Christ was passive and DID NOT exercise His own will to preserve His life”…..how does Christ have a will that is different to God’s, if they are one and the same being?

If he is God, then his will would of necessity be the same as the Father’s.

Please explain scripturally how anyone can subscribe to this way of thinking. How does what you said make any logical sense, when it is God who gave us our sense of logic?
It is he who called Jesus his son, and Jesus called God his Father….but he also called him his “God”, even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12) Does God then worship an equal part of himself, even in heaven?

Jesus is also called by titles that are clearly identifying his subservience…..
Heb 3:1 RSV…e.g….
”Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly call, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.”
Two titles are mentioned here by Paul that are given to Jesus…”high priest” and “apostle“….these two positions are ones of service to God….Christ serves as our “high priest” in heaven…..so can God be his own high priest or servant?
Acts 4:27-30 clearly states that Jesus is a ”holy servant” of his God.

Please make sense of this to me….

The OP asked “how does he overcome his own death.”…and the answer is that he didn’t…..God raised his son from the dead, as the scriptures clearly state. (Romans 10:9)


So what was the “cup” that Jesus wanted removed, if if it was God’s will that he came to earth to give his life in behalf of all mankind? Was he asking for his life to be “preserved”, when his death had been the purpose of his mission all along?
What was he asking his Father in reality? The “cup” was the charge of blasphemy, which was unthinkable that he should die bringing reproach on his God and Father.…..so he had to endure that one thing that pained him even more than the physical torture he received.

So many things are written that are contradicted by “beliefs” rather than just allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

 

[Scott Downey]

This just blows my mind…..read what you wrote….
”Christ fully submitted himself to the will of God”…..how does God “submit” to himself?

“Christ was passive and DID NOT exercise His own will to preserve His life”…..how does Christ have a will that is different to God’s, if they are one and the same being?

If he is God, then his will would of necessity be the same as the Father’s.

Please explain scripturally how anyone can subscribe to this way of thinking. How does what you said make any logical sense, when it is God who gave us our sense of logic?
It is he who called Jesus his son, and Jesus called God his Father….but he also called him his “God”, even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12) Does God then worship an equal part of himself, even in heaven?

Jesus is also called by titles that are clearly identifying his subservience…..
Heb 3:1 RSV…e.g….
”Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly call, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.”
Two titles are mentioned here by Paul that are given to Jesus…”high priest” and “apostle“….these two positions are ones of service to God….Christ serves as our “high priest” in heaven…..so can God be his own high priest or servant?
Acts 4:27-30 clearly states that Jesus is a ”holy servant” of his God.

Please make sense of this to me….

The OP asked “how does he overcome his own death.”…and the answer is that he didn’t…..God raised his son from the dead, as the scriptures clearly state. (Romans 10:9)


So what was the “cup” that Jesus wanted removed, if if it was God’s will that he came to earth to give his life in behalf of all mankind? Was he asking for his life to be “preserved”, when his death had been the purpose of his mission all along?
What was he asking his Father in reality? The “cup” was the charge of blasphemy, which was unthinkable that he should die bringing reproach on his God and Father.…..so he had to endure that one thing that pained him even more than the physical torture he received.

So many things are written that are contradicted by “beliefs” rather than just allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

God gave the Son a human existence, a body fully like the children have.
We are 'made in the image of God' ourselves in a way like that
I think you cannot dispute the humanness of Jesus Christ and also the divine nature which was Him.
Christ needed to fully experience our conditions down here in order to be a faithful High Priest to the Father for us.
Christ was born as a babe, had an earthly mother and father, would have played games as a child.
God sending His Son to earth to be our human and divine savior is the ultimate gift of sacrificial love towards us who believe.
Jesus Christ joins God and man together as one spirit with Him. Christ obviously agreed or He would not have come here, it was the only way to bring us back together into fellowship, one which the devil marred in the garden of God, Eden.
Christ had to identify with us, and us with Him. And because HE did, we can be the children of God, and HE, the Christ, is our brother, our very own family.
His being born as a baby, only temporarily diminished His Glory.

Hebrews 4

Our Compassionate High Priest​

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 2

1 Therefore we must give [a]the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [b]reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts[c] of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

The Son Made Lower than Angels​

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 1

Greeting the Faithful​

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have [a]obtained like[b] precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the [c]corruption that is in the world through lust.

******************
Because of Christ we can be partakers of the divine nature. God shares this with us by the works the Son did, we can have enduring, never ending life, just like He has and not perish in Hell.

We really can be transformed into the image of Christ and this is needful for us to obtain the same life He has.

Christ has the power of an endless life, so when He was killed, death could not hold Him.

Hebrew 7
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For [a]He testifies:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ is the Holy One of God and he was also a man
Even though he was seen as a man on earth, even the demons recognized who HE IS
They had seen Him before in Glory and they could see things in the spiritual realms that men cannot see.
Fallen celestial beings also communicate with each other and all the devil's angels.
*************************************************
Luke 4
33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, 34 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”

35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, [a]“Be quiet, and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him in their midst, it came out of him and did not hurt him.
*************************************************
There is a time coming when the Holy One of God will destroy them, but it was not yet that time, but they feel it intensely, they know their time is coming.

And have you thought, what if God gave Christ the body of an angel instead of a man, well that would not do, if HE was to be the Saviour of the world, The Son had to be seen as a person, someone that could be touched and felt and experience by human senses.
*****************************************************
Acts 2
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

***************************************
The Son's whole purpose for coming to earth to be born as a baby was to redeem us to Himself by His own blood, by His own death.
In order to do that dying, he had to be born as a man.

 

[Aunty Jane]

LGod gave the Son a human existence, a body fully like the children have.
We are 'made in the image of God' ourselves in a way like that
I think you cannot dispute the humanness of Jesus Christ and also the divine nature which was Him.
Christ needed to fully experience our conditions down here in order to be a faithful High Priest to the Father for us.
Christ was born as a babe, had an earthly mother and father, would have played games as a child.
God sending His Son to earth to be our human and divine savior is the ultimate gift of sacrificial love towards us who believe.

All of that is true, but it doesn’t explain why Jesus had to come into existence the way he did. God could have created a son like the first Adam and presented him into the world as his Messiah…..but he chose to have him come into the world through a human mother. The Scriptures tell us why.

There was so much prophesy written about the Messiah that he had to fulfill to prove who he was. No one could ever doubt his credentials in that respect as it was all documented in the Hebrew Scriptures.

And, in order to redeem the human race, the redeemer had to pay an exact price…..”eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life”….God’s law required equivalency. No son of Adam could repay what he lost since sin was now programmed into their DNA. A perfect sinless human had to come into the world from outside of Adam’s DNA, to pay back what Adam lost for all his children.

The problem trinitarians have is that an immortal cannot offer his life for a mortal….there is no equivalency.
An immortal cannot die….and Christ’s death had to be authentic…”a life for a life”…..his life had to cancel the debt in order to redeem mankind. Jesus had to be 100% human….not some 50/50, half god/half man.
Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus said to be God’s equivalent ….. he was Adam’s equivalent, or the ransom was not paid.

Jesus Christ joins God and man together as one spirit with Him. Christ obviously agreed or He would not have come here, it was the only way to bring us back together into fellowship, one which the devil marred in the garden of God, Eden.
Christ had to identify with us, and us with Him. And because HE did, we can be the children of God, and HE, the Christ, is our brother, our very own family.
His being born as a baby, only temporarily diminished His Glory.

It is true that Jesus gave up his glorious spirit body in heaven in order to become “lower than the angels”…but if he was God, how is that even possible? How can God ever be lower than his own creation? Very few seem to realize how absurd that is.
Jesus didn’t need to be God in order to offer his life for the human race…..all he needed to be was a sinless human.
God arranged for that to happen. The embryo in Mary’s womb was not of this world.

The Creator is immortal and cannot die….when he sent his son, it was the Father alone who was immortal, but upon his return to heaven, the son was also granted immortality. But you see why he was not given immortality before his mission….?

The Son Made Lower than Angels​

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Again you are not reading that except through a trinitarian lens.
Consider what that means…..how can God do that to himself? He is already “crowned with honor”….he is already “set“ as one who has everything already subject to him….yet in Matt 28:18 Jesus says….
”All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”…what possible authority could God give his equal self, that he doesn’t already have?

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;

Now please explain how the Father has “sons”, but the Christ has these very same people as his spiritual “brothers”? These are “sons of God ” by adoption, but Jesus is already a “son of God” and these become his “brothers” by God’s choosing, and they will reign with him in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

How confusing is that?

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Can you now tell me how a perfect God can be tempted? Is he not superior to his creation in that aspect?
Why did making man “in his image” allow sin to exist? All the rebels in Eden were created perfect…without defect…..so is free will a defect? Did God make a mistake in giving his intelligent creation, free will? Or is there a bigger picture here?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because of Christ we can be partakers of the divine nature. God shares this with us by the works the Son did, we can have enduring, never ending life, just like He has and not perish in Hell.

Again…what is “hell“ if people ”perish” there? Jesus also said in Matt 10:28….
”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Ge·henʹna].”

Is hell (Gehenna) a place of eternal conscious torment or eternal death? Jesus said that Gehenna is a place where people are “destroyed”…”perish”….look up those words in the dictionary and see what they mean.

We really can be transformed into the image of Christ and this is needful for us to obtain the same life He has.

Christ has the power of an endless life, so when He was killed, death could not hold Him.

Again you use contradictory statements….if Christ has the power of an endless life, how could anyone kill him? The only reason why death could not hold him was because his Father in heaven resurrected him.
Jesus did not resurrect himself.

Acts 2:32-33; 36….
“God raised this Jesus to life. Of that we are all witnesses. Exalted at God’s right hand, he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. . . . .“Therefore, let the whole house of Israel know with complete certitude that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”

There is a time coming when the Holy One of God will destroy them, but it was not yet that time, but they feel it intensely, they know their time is coming.

The demons do indeed fear the day of their judgment….yet they didn’t know when it was going to happen, just as the apostles and disciples had no idea when Christ would return. Here we are almost 2000 years hence, and we are still waiting….do you have any idea why God’s plans take so long to come to fruition?
The Bible tells us if we know what we are looking for….

And have you thought, what if God gave Christ the body of an angel instead of a man, well that would not do, if HE was to be the Saviour of the world, The Son had to be seen as a person, someone that could be touched and felt and experience by human senses.

If it required the body of someone lower than an angel, I guess God would have known that from the beginning…No ordinary angel could save the world….but then Jesus was no ordinary “son of God”.

The Son's whole purpose for coming to earth to be born as a baby was to redeem us to Himself by His own blood, by His own death.
In order to do that dying, he had to be born as a man.

Which rules out him being anything but 100% human. With his blood, he purchased us, which is what a redeemer does….he pays a debt to retrieve something valuable, that was forfeited.

 

[Scott Downey]

Again…what is “hell“ if people ”perish” there? Jesus also said in Matt 10:28….
”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Ge·henʹna].”

Is hell (Gehenna) a place of eternal conscious torment or eternal death? Jesus said that Gehenna is a place where people are “destroyed”…”perish”….look up those words in the dictionary and see what they mean.


Again you use contradictory statements….if Christ has the power of an endless life, how could anyone kill him? The only reason why death could not hold him was because his Father in heaven resurrected him.
Jesus did not resurrect himself.

Acts 2:32-33; 36….
“God raised this Jesus to life. Of that we are all witnesses. Exalted at God’s right hand, he received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. . . . .“Therefore, let the whole house of Israel know with complete certitude that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”


The demons do indeed fear the day of their judgment….yet they didn’t know when it was going to happen, just as the apostles and disciples had no idea when Christ would return. Here we are almost 2000 years hence, and we are still waiting….do you have any idea why God’s plans take so long to come to fruition?
The Bible tells us if we know what we are looking for….

If it required the body of someone lower than an angel, I guess God would have known that from the beginning…No ordinary angel could save the world….but then Jesus was no ordinary “son of God”.

Which rules out him being anything but 100% human. With his blood, he purchased us, which is what a redeemer does….he pays a debt to retrieve something valuable, that was forfeited.

How could anyone kill Christ?

Hebrews 2 says God gave Him a flesh and blood body like the children of God also have, the incarnation made Christ vulnerable to death.
So, Christ died. But I know for you if you're a JW, that means the dead cease to exist. And how can Christ be divine and also cease to exist. But that is your conundrum, not my problem, as we believe different things.

 

[Aunty Jane]

How could anyone kill Christ?

Yes!…..can mere humans kill God? The fact that he was 100% human meant that he could offer his life in exchange for ours….a sinless life was lost for Adam’s children….a sinless life was offered to cancel that debt and give us back what God offered all humankind in Eden.

Mere humans cannot kill an immortal...and an immortal sacrificed for the sin of a mortal is not only impossible, it is not scriptural redemption…..that is “like for like”. The scales of justice are not balanced.

Hebrews 2 says God gave Him a flesh and blood body like the children of God also have, the incarnation made Christ vulnerable to death.

Yes! Only a mortal can die. This means that Christ was not half man/half God. He had to die the same kind of death that Adam did…..which is why he is called “the last Adam”.

So, Christ died. But I know for you if you're a JW, that means the dead cease to exist. And how can Christ be divine and also cease to exist. But that is your conundrum, not my problem, as we believe different things.

Can I ask you what the Jewish understanding of death was, and what all OT Scripture promoted as the truth about what happens to us when we die….Jesus was Jewish….so can you point to a single scripture that spoke about life after death…except by resurrection. Do we understand what death and resurrection meant to a Jew?

I have no conundrum because I understand what Jesus taught his exclusively Jewish audience from the only Scripture he used…the OT. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

The dead “sleep” as Jesus and his apostles made clear. (Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Eccl 9:5, 10; 1 Thess 4:13-14; John 11:11-14)
Have you never asked where Lazarus was before Jesus called him from his tomb? If he was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back this this life, only to die again from a different cause later?

Does “sleeping“ suggest that people don’t exist? Or that they are remembered by God as it says about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Luke 20:37-38…

” But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

The resurrection was so sure, that to God it was as if they were still living in his memory. Since no one went to heaven before Jesus, where were Abraham Isaac and Jacob in Jesus day?
What did Lazarus’s sister say about her hope for the dead?

John 11: 20-23….
“When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

What is “the resurrection on the last day”? When is “the last day”?

And what did Jesus mean when he said that “just as Jonah had been in the belly of the fish for three days and nights, so he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and nights.” (Matt 12:38-40)

Where was Jesus by his own admission for those three days and nights? He was dead and confined to the tomb in which they laid him. God brought him back to life after three days, not as a human, but as a spirit to resume his life in heaven with his God and Father. (1 Pet 8:18) After 40 days of “appearing” to his apostles and others, he returned to his former life, rewarded now for his faithful course in saving the human race…..and God has even given him a new name…..(Phil 2:9; Rev 3:12)