The Case for Eternal Security

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BarneyFife

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Hi Barney

So are you are trying to tell me that you can and have been living your life to the letter of the law , ..and that you keep the ten commandment given to Moses , perfectly.
Sorry , balderdash …

So are you telling me that a certain amount of sin is acceptable to God?

How much, exactly?

Do you now offer your own pronouncement in opposition to 1 John 2:7?

Keeping the commandments "perfectly"—yet another convention of man that simply didn't exist a few decades ago.

The word "perfect" appears 94 times in the King James Version and not once is it used to describe the practice of *law-keeping*. Yet people will use this same word to impeach the law's veracity and perpetuity.

And, again, no such "perfection" argument is made to excuse paganism, idolatry, profanity, disrespect to parents, murder, adultery, theft, false witness, or covetousness.

Why is that?

God says to keep His commandments and to walk perfect before Him.

The object that is most often related to perfection in the Bible is the heart of a just man.

If Abraham's and King David's "perfection" were pleasing to God, I'm very hopeful for us.

And I can only think of one of the ten commandments to which folks object.

Can you think of any?

Am I being unreasonable?

.
 

Behold

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Then you should heed the warning the Lord gave thru Paul and acknowledge the whole counsel of God

1 Timothy 6:3-5
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Paul said....>"be a follower of Me, as i follow Christ"........

So, this means, to learn Paul's Theology, and study Pauls lifestyle and minis
 

Behold

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Paul affirms the goodness, holiness, and righteousness of the law (quoting the 10th commandment). Its function is to reveal sin.

Paul said the law is good if you use it lawfully, and that means you never try to use the Law as the way to God or as the means of Salvation.

The Law and the 10 Commandments, cannot provide righteousness, or salvation.

They are created, most of all, to show the sinner their lost and unforgiven condition, so that by this.....the sinner will turn to God for the remedy.

A.) "Jesus has redeemed us (the born again) from the CURSE OF THE LAW"....

The remedy for the "curse of the Law", and the 10 Commandments that Paul teaches is the "minstry of death"........is :

=: A.) The Cross of Christ

Reader,.....
carnal
Religous people will try to get you under bondage to the law, because they dont understand The Cross of Christ or the Grace of God.

The Born again.....>>"ARE NOT....under the Law....but UNDER GRACE"...
 

Dan Clarkston

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Paul said....>"be a follower of Me, as i follow Christ"........

So, this means, to learn Paul's Theology, and study Pauls lifestyle and minis

Jesus said... thru Paul I might add.... to be imitators of God to follow HIM

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


We are also told by the Lord... thru Paul I might add....to put on Christ, NOT Paul

Romans 13:14
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


We are also told by the Lord... thru Paul I might add....to put on the New Man, NOT Paul

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:


So feel free to continue being a follower of Paul enraging in idolatry and we'll see how that works out for ya coffee-smiley.gif
 

St. SteVen

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As I said in the other part of my post from which you quote here, I have no argument with objections to keeping the moral law as means of merit toward gaining God's favor or redemption—except for the fairly conspicuous fact that no person who should expect to be taken seriously in the discussion makes such a claim anymore.

strs
Where is the morality in Sabbath-keeping?

[
 

Behold

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Jesus said... thru Paul I might add.... to be imitators of God to follow HIM

I think what you fail to understand, is that its Paul's Epistles, = Its His Doctrine that is Doctrine for the "Body of Christ".
There was no "body of Christ".. no "New Testament" Church when Jesus was talking to JEWS, during His earthly Ministry.

Paul received this DOCTRINE for the "Body of Christ" from Jesus, = after Jesus was back in Heaven......including "the Gospel".

So, when we want to learn "church Doctrine" we learn it from Paul, who received it from Jesus.

See, Paul's theology was not taught by Jesus to the gentiles....., as Jesus's ministry was only to the JEWS.

So, Paul was called once the Body of Christ began, with the Crucifixion of Christ.... that initiated "the Time of the gentiles".

And Paul is the "Apostlie to the Gentiles"..and that is why the body of Christ that is mostly gentiles.....is to get "church" Doctrine from Paul.
 

Sister-n-Christ

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Perhaps this is a radical view of the situation, but I was thinking of proceeding at least somewhat as I have for nearly six years before you arrived less than a month ago to inform us all as to how things should be.

I don't mean to be unkind, but aren't you presuming just a bit?
No. I've read you on forums for years. One doesn't have to join to read.

The self righteous persona isn't genuine.
 

BarneyFife

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No. I've read you on forums for years. One doesn't have to join to read.

The self righteous persona isn't genuine.

I get it. You're actually trolling me.

Have it your way.

That's a neat trick, btw. I don't participate anywhere but here.
 
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St. SteVen

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I'm not seeing anything going backward in this line of our discussion about Sabbath-keeping. Why bring it up in this context?

.
Sabbath is part of what you call "the moral law".
It appears to me that Sabbath-breaking is only immoral for Jews.
An offense against the Sabbath-keeping community.

You sidestepped the question. But I can drop it if you wish.
Perhaps @Sister-n-Christ could take a stab at it?

[
 

BarneyFife

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Great point that many don't get.

A good example of this is when Jesus said if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her it's the same as doing the physical deed.

Under the old testament it was only sin if one did the deed outside of being married, but in the new testament just desiring intimacy with a woman that is not one's wife is sinful behavior and this same concept applies to other desires as well.

Is that why God, throughout the Old Testament, is constantly talking about the condition of people's hearts and how they need to turn them back to Him?

I get it. People don't like to be told what to do or not do. I didn't like it when my grandmother wouldn't let me cut her lawn on Sundays, because that was the most convenient time for me.

But God says to surrender the rebellious heart, and He will make it the wellspring of love for Him and our neighbors, which is the foundation of willing obedience to His commandments.

The "You have heard it said" statements are based on the Pharisaical intetpretation of Old Testament Scripture—not OT Scripture itself, which testifies of Christ, according to His very own words.

He even marveled at the fact that Nicodemus didn't understand the concept of rebirth. Evidence for the New/Everlasting Covenant goes all the way back to Genesis 3, when God told Eve that He would put enmity between her seed and the seed of the serpent.

This is why Hebrews 8:8 is clear that God found fault with the people—not the law.

.
 

BarneyFife

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Sabbath is part of what you call "the moral law".
It appears to me that Sabbath-breaking is only immoral for Jews.
An offense against the Sabbath-keeping community.

You sidestepped the question. But I can drop it if you wish.
Perhaps @Sister-n-Christ could take a stab at it?

[

I understand why you might see the Fourth Commandment as different from, say, 'You shall not murder' or 'You shall not steal,' which have more immediately obvious social harm when broken. Some see the Sabbath as purely ceremonial. However, from my perspective, the Fourth Commandment is deeply moral, and breaking it can indeed be seen as undermining the principles behind the other nine commandments, in line with the idea that offending in one point makes one guilty of all.

The idea from James 2:10 isn't that breaking the Sabbath *is* literally murder, but that it reveals a disregard for the Lawgiver and the source of all moral law. It's about the orientation of the heart.

So, how could my disregard for the Sabbath (the Fourth Commandment) materially connect to breaking the others? Here's how I see it:

Regarding the First Commandment ("You shall have no other gods before me"): If I choose to disregard the Sabbath, what am I prioritizing over God? Often, it's my work, my ambitions, my leisure, or my desire for more income. These can become 'other gods' I serve, placing my desires and the demands of the material world above my relationship and duty to the Creator who ordained rest and set-apart time. My allegiance shifts.

Regarding the Second Commandment ("You shall not make for yourself a carved image... you shall not bow down to them or serve them"): While I might not be carving a wooden idol, by rejecting the Sabbath's call to cease from my own works and acknowledge Him, I might find myself 'bowing down' to the idol of materialism, constant productivity, or even self-reliance. I'm effectively serving the works of my hands or my intellect rather than the Creator.

Regarding the Third Commandment ("You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain"): If I claim to follow God but intentionally ignore a command like the Sabbath, which He explicitly calls "holy," am I not treating His name, His authority, and His commands lightly? It can become a form of hypocrisy, where my actions don't align with my professed allegiance, thereby making His name seem less significant or His commands optional.

Regarding the Fifth Commandment ("Honor your father and your mother"): God is our ultimate spiritual Parent. Disregarding His explicit instructions for our well-being (spiritual, mental, physical rest) and His honor, like the Sabbath, can be seen as dishonoring Him, much like a child might dishonor earthly parents by rejecting their wise and loving guidance.

Regarding the Sixth Commandment ("You shall not murder"): While not direct murder, constant refusal to rest (a core Sabbath principle) and driving myself (or others, if I'm an employer) relentlessly can destroy health, shorten life, and crush the human spirit. It can reflect a devaluing of human life and well-being, which is at the heart of the prohibition against murder. Am I not, in a way, 'killing' my spirit, or contributing to conditions that diminish life by ignoring God's provision for restoration?

Regarding the Seventh Commandment ("You shall not commit adultery"): The Sabbath is about setting aside time for God and sacred things, which includes fostering spiritual and relational health. If I consistently neglect this, my spiritual, emotional, and even physical well-being can suffer. This can make me more vulnerable to temptation or lead to a neglect of other important covenant relationships, including marriage, because my priorities are disordered. It's about faithfulness; if I'm unfaithful to God in this dedicated time, where else might that pattern of unfaithfulness creep in?

Regarding the Eighth Commandment ("You shall not steal"): The Sabbath time is set apart by God, for God, and for our God-given need for rest. By using it purely for my own gain or worldly pursuits without regard for His claim or my own need for holy rest, am I not 'stealing' what He has designated? If I'm an employer and deny others their rightful Sabbath rest for my profit, I'm stealing from them.

Regarding the Ninth Commandment ("You shall not bear false witness"): If I profess faith and a commitment to God's ways, but my actions (like consistently ignoring the Sabbath) contradict that profession, I'm presenting a false witness about what it means to follow God. My life isn't aligning with my words, which is a form of falsehood.

Regarding the Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet"): Often, the primary urge to break the Sabbath comes from covetousness – wanting more wealth, more success, more possessions, or fearing I won't have enough if I stop producing. It's a failure to trust in God's provision and a desire for what He hasn't ordained for that time, or what belongs to others in terms of market share or opportunity. The Sabbath teaches contentment and trust.

So, from my perspective, the Sabbath isn't just an arbitrary rule; it's deeply woven into the moral fabric. Breaking it often reveals an underlying heart issue—a prioritization of self over God, materialism over spiritual well-being, or distrust over faith—that can easily lead to violations of the other commandments in spirit, if not always in literal deed. It's about who or what ultimately commands my allegiance and how I value what God values. Its observance is a moral act of acknowledging God's sovereignty, our dependence, and the need for sacred boundaries in a fallen world.

.
 
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Behold

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So, from my perspective, the Sabbath isn't just an arbitrary rule; it's deeply woven into the moral fabric. Breaking it often reveals an underlying heart issue—

Ignorant religious Jews in Israel where i have my home, who wear black.......believe that the sabbath has to be obeyed.
So, here you are just like them, @BarneyFife ....as they are the religious fools who worship the law and their "father's = Crucified Christ.
You have a serious Law Keeping obsession.

I invite you stop trusting Moses Law, as it can't save you, and it can't keep you saved
And the 10 Commandment are "the ministry of DEATH".....>Paul teaches, as all they can do is define you as a sinner.

Notice this verse..

"Jesus has redeemed the born again... from the CURSE OF THE LAW".......and here you are trying to live in the curse....pretending that God's righteousess is somehow manifested by it.

Listen..

A Christian...>"Is NOT UNDER THE LAW..........but UNDER GRACE"...

Why?

Its because """""JESUS is the END... OF...THE... LAW...for Rightousness, for everyone who Believes""""
....... ......= everyone who is born again.
 

Behold

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The "Case for Eternal Security".


A.) Eternal Security is "Eternal Life".

Jesus is Eternal Life.

If you have Jesus in you, as "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". (Glory is Heaven).............then you have become Joined to Eternal Life Himself, .. because all Christians are "IN Christ".... "one with God".
 
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mailmandan

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The "Case for Eternal Security".

A.) Eternal Security is "Eternal Life".

Jesus is Eternal Life.

If you have Jesus in you, as "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". (Glory is Heaven).............then you have become Joined to Eternal Life Himself, .. because all Christians are "IN Christ".... "one with God".
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
 

Behold

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1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Amen.
 
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Dan Clarkston

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1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Barney Fife got born again so according to your OSAS doctrine it's no big deal if he tries to live under the Law because he can never ever lose his salvation according to you OSAS peoples

In fact, according to you OSAS peoples, if Barney Fife ever decided to go out and start molesting children and smoking crack it's all good according to you OSAS peoples since you claim it's not possible to lose one's salvation

It's always funny to hear the OSAS peoples trying to correct anybody for not walking with the Lord. Quite comical actually! funny.gif
 

mailmandan

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Barney Fife got born again so according to your OSAS doctrine it's no big deal if he tries to live under the Law because he can never ever lose his salvation according to you OSAS peoples

In fact, according to you OSAS peoples, if Barney Fife ever decided to go out and start molesting children and smoking crack it's all good according to you OSAS peoples since you claim it's not possible to lose one's salvation

It's always funny to hear the OSAS peoples trying to correct anybody for not walking with the Lord. Quite comical actually! View attachment 63450
What a despicable post! Show me in any of my posts on this forum where I said that it's all good for a born again believer to go out and start molesting children and smoking crack etc.. You have an extreme view of OSAS that I do not hold to. I actually prefer to use the terms eternal security of the believer or preservation of the saints because of such radical, extreme views that people like you attach to OSAS. There is nothing comical about your sarcasm or your slander. You should have asked me what my views are in regard to OSAS before you jumped to conclusions with your false accusations which were unwarranted.
 

Triumph1300

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In fact, according to you OSAS peoples, if Barney Fife ever decided to go out and start molesting children and smoking crack it's all good according to you OSAS peoples since you claim it's not possible to lose one's salvation
Crazy post.
But I guess you can always dream up such a thing, just for the heck of it.
Extremely bizarre.

Because no person truly born again would do such a thing.
 

Dan Clarkston

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What a despicable post! Show me in any of my posts on this forum where I said that it's all good for a born again believer to go out and start molesting children and smoking crack etc..

No, the OSAS peoples don't say that in so many words.... although I'm hearing a few actually are.

But what they DO says is that once someone gets born again they can never ever lose their salvation causing many to stumble because they think they can go back to sinful living and it's all good because after all they are being falsely taught that it's impossible to lose their salvation

Your boy gnarly Charlie Stanley which the OSAS peoples claim to be an icon of the OSAS doctrine, a leading authority on eternal security literally claimed one can live in sin and even forsake their faith altogether and still be saved!

In his book, Eternal Security, Stanley says

"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy” (Chapter 10, p. 93)

Christ will not deny an unbelieving Christian his or her salvation because to do so would be to deny Himself” (p. 94).

Believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful” (p. 94)




You have an extreme view of OSAS that I do not hold to.

You claim to be a part of the OSAS community so own it!



There is nothing comical about your sarcasm or your slander.

It's not slander when it's true.

Maybe you should quit identifying as a OSAS or eternal security proponent and embrace the whole counsel of God instead clueless.gif





You should have asked me what my views are in regard to OSAS before you jumped to conclusions with your false accusations which were unwarranted.

Hey you are the one going around claiming to be a proponent of this doctrine, so you are stuck with their teachings