New Jerusalem

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Hiddenthings

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I have no problem with the “saints” being “saints”, chosen by God for a specific purpose…..but I am suggesting to you that not all Christians are “saints”. Just as not all Israel were kings or priests.
Jane, the declaration at Sinai was to ALL Israel

"And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests" Exo 19:6

The Septuagint renders this as "a royal priesthood," establishing the Israelites as both kings and priests. As a nation, Israel was intended to represent God to the other nations: to rule among them and to draw them toward truth and righteousness (Deut. 4:6–8). However, the people broke the covenant while Moses was on the mountain, and the priesthood was given to Levi (Exod. 32:25–29), and later, the government to Judah.

In Christ, both roles will be restored as originally intended. All believers are called to be kings and priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), and in the Age to Come, they will form a royal priesthood (Rev. 5:9–10), serving as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years (Rev 20:4; 1:6). See also Heb. 5:1–3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Matt. 19:28.

I’d much prefer to be engaging in more productive dialogue than having to keep addressing your growing number of incorrect inferences.

I think it’s time to acknowledge that the idea of a separate, elite group of saints simply can’t be supported. We could go back and forth endlessly, but it’s not even a matter of agreeing to disagree, none of the verses presented have come close to backing that belief.
 

Hiddenthings

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Strongs Concordance disagrees with you….these are all the same word. G3708…..”horaō”.
Two different words

John 16:16 "Ye shall not see" θεωρέω theōreō
  1. to be a spectator, look at, behold
    1. to view attentively, take a view of, survey
      1. to view mentally, consider

John 16:16 "and ye shall see" ὀπτάνομαι optanomai
  1. to look at, behold (amazement)
  2. to allow one's self to be seen, to appear
Not sure what concordance you are using but they agree 100% with my reply.
 

Aunty Jane

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Jane, the declaration at Sinai was to ALL Israel

"And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests" Exo 19:6

The Septuagint renders this as "a royal priesthood," establishing the Israelites as both kings and priests. As a nation, Israel was intended to represent God to the other nations: to rule among them and to draw them toward truth and righteousness (Deut. 4:6–8). However, the people broke the covenant while Moses was on the mountain, and the priesthood was given to Levi (Exod. 32:25–29), and later, the government to Judah.
Can I ask you if you believe that “not all Israel are really Israel”?
Do you understand that only a remnant of fleshly Israel were to be saved and the number of spiritual “Israel” (Gal 6:16 whom Paul identified as “the Israel of God”) were made up by Gentiles? All of spiritual Israel will be “kings and priests” to the nations on earth whom they will serve…..redeemed mankind.
In Christ, both roles will be restored as originally intended. All believers are called to be kings and priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), and in the Age to Come, they will form a royal priesthood (Rev. 5:9–10), serving as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years (Rev 20:4; 1:6). See also Heb. 5:1–3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Matt. 19:28.

I’d much prefer to be engaging in more productive dialogue than having to keep addressing your growing number of incorrect inferences.
I see your own references as incorrect….so we are not really getting anywhere if all we are doing is trying to get our opponent to agree to our interpretation…..it’s not going to happen…so we can call it quits if your agenda is to constantly push for your own view to be be accepted just because that is the way you see things?

I think it’s time to acknowledge that the idea of a separate, elite group of saints simply can’t be supported. We could go back and forth endlessly, but it’s not even a matter of agreeing to disagree, none of the verses presented have come close to backing that belief.
If you cannot accept my view, then that is your prerogative….my view is different to yours and you must just accept that…as I thought I made it clear that all we can do here is compare notes and agree to disagree.
If you cannot do that the discussion is finished…..no frustration needed.

There is enough here already if anyone want to read what is written. They can make up their own minds…
 

Hiddenthings

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Can I ask you if you believe that “not all Israel are really Israel”?
Do you understand that only a remnant of fleshly Israel were to be saved and the number of spiritual “Israel” (Gal 6:16 whom Paul identified as “the Israel of God”) were made up by Gentiles? All of spiritual Israel will be “kings and priests” to the nations on earth whom they will serve…..redeemed mankind.

I see your own references as incorrect….so we are not really getting anywhere if all we are doing is trying to get our opponent to agree to our interpretation…..it’s not going to happen…so we can call it quits if your agenda is to constantly push for your own view to be be accepted just because that is the way you see things?

If you cannot accept my view, then that is your prerogative….my view is different to yours and you must just accept that…as I thought I made it clear that all we can do here is compare notes and agree to disagree.
If you cannot do that the discussion is finished…..no frustration needed.

There is enough here already if anyone want to read what is written. They can make up their own minds…
Jane, the connection you made with Israel was flawed. I provided clear evidence showing that all of Israel was intended to be a nation of kings and priests.

Agree or disagree - that is what was intended

What’s happened here is that you’ve tried to use Israel as a basis for supporting the idea of a separate, elite group of saints reigning with Christ from heaven but that simply doesn’t hold up.

You're not there yet.
 

Hiddenthings

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If you cannot accept my view, then that is your prerogative…
It’s not so much about accepting your view, I’m genuinely looking for you to be able to support it. But so far, I haven’t seen anything that even comes close to providing the context or meaning you’re suggesting.
 

Aunty Jane

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Jane, the connection you made with Israel was flawed. I provided clear evidence showing that all of Israel was intended to be a nation of kings and priests.

Agree or disagree - that is what was intended
What was God’s purpose for those kings and priests? Why did Israel have a temple and a priesthood?
Go back to the beginning and tell me why God made his promise to Abraham in the first place….?
What’s happened here is that you’ve tried to use Israel as a basis for supporting the idea of a separate, elite group of saints reigning with Christ from heaven but that simply doesn’t hold up.

You're not there yet.
Just for clarity…..what did Paul say about literal Israel after the execution of Jesus and the continuing persecution of the Christians, as he himself was heavily involved in that persecution himself before his conversion. What did Paul come to realize under the power of God’s spirit and the continued guidance of the resurrected Jesus?
The nation of Israel had lost the plot long before Jesus made his appearance. God had only one reason to keep them in existence….and that was to produce his Messiah…..and he gave them first dibs at attaining the role of “kings and priests”….but the nation as a whole rejected Christ resulting in God rejecting them. He chose a new nation to serve his purpose.

At at Rom 2:28-29 Paul wrote “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”

At Gal 3:29, he states that all who belong to Christ, who are members of his body, anointed by God’s holy spirit, are in fact Abraham’s seed and therefore also “Jews”, that is, spiritual Jews.

God changed what it meant to be a ”Jew”….no longer proven with lineage to Abraham by blood, but now “sons of Abraham“ in imitation of his faith.

Rom 9:6-8….
However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

Those who accepted Jesus as Messiah would now be seen by God as “Abraham’s offspring”. So not literal Jews and literal Jerusalem are considered by God to be his people or the place where his kingdom would be established. After their rejection and murder of his son, a new nation of “spiritual Jews” was chosen to replace the faithless nation who descended from Abraham.….this new nation who would obey him and keep his commandments, were now considered as Abraham’s offspring. Lineage meant nothing anymore. (Matt 3:7-10)

Just a literaI Israel were set apart as God’s people, so these spiritual Jews are set apart as God’s spiritual nation….and just as literal Jews had kings and priests, appointed by God to direct his people, so spiritual Israel would serve in that capacity…the new nation of people who would become “priests and a holy nation” as literal Israel should have been. “Types and shadows”.

”The Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) was made up of both Jewish and gentile believers in Christ. Literal Jerusalem and it’s temple were no longer relevant to God’s purpose once the Messiah had been sacrificed.

The “holy land” today is drenched in innocent blood, rendering it unholy to God who has never sanctioned a war since Israel had a military force to defend its territory. (Isaiah 1:15) When God gave his people and their land over to gentile domination, they could not have a military force, so anyone who sees Israel of today as in any way relevant to God’s purpose, is barking up the wrong tree. Their alliances with nations whose worship they despise tells an ancient story…..God punished his people for doing that instead of relying on their God to give them the victory. They gave him so many grounds for ‘divorce’……God’s purpose in connection with the faithless literal nation of Israel is finished. (Matt 23:37-39)
 

Berean

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The one who conquersI will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations. Rev 3:12-13
I'd like to chime in if you don't mind. We see here in this verse our Lord assures the faithful that they will serve as a pillar in the true temple of the New Jerusalem. This term pillar signifies being a support, indicating that the faithful will uphold God’s Divine Plan for the coming age. Being made a pillar in God’s temple symbolically indicates our essential role in God’s Plan to assist the world in the next age. A pillar supports the temple, and while being a pillar in the spiritual temple does not imply we will be a physical pillar, it signifies our commitment to supporting God’s Plan and governance. The temple is a crucial element of the New Jerusalem descending from heaven, which symbolizes God’s governance arriving to establish the new heavens and earth. The New Jerusalem's descent to earth is made possible by the salvation that Christ achieved for both the church and the world during the First Advent. This salvation enables the realization of the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, which brings salvation to both the heavenly and earthly descendants. What Christ achieved on the cross and the shedding of His blood for us is what allows everything we witness regarding both salvations in Revelation to be possible.

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother." - Gal 4:25-26 NIV​

The church members are the living stones that are being constructed into a spiritual house or temple in that city, with Jesus as the valuable cornerstone that forms the foundation of that temple.

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone} in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." - Eph 2:19-22​

"Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE." - 2 Cor 6:16​

The fact that we can no longer go out indicates that once we have confirmed our calling and election, we need not fear losing our crown, as we will be with the Lord eternally. In the era of the apostate church system, the Faithful Church was expelled from the corrupt nominal temple, but we will dwell in the true temple of the Lord forever after the wicked system faces punishment. Those who are part of that evil system will be excluded from the faithful temple, as illustrated in Isaiah 66:5-6. This scripture had a direct meaning for natural Israel during the First Advent, and it also symbolically applies to the apostate church due to the persecution faced during the Gospel Age.

Another example of writing on the forehead is found in Ezekiel 9:4, where a mark is made on the foreheads of those who are distressed by the wrongdoings around them. This vision illustrates the sealing process that the church undergoes, with the faithful receiving the mark or name of Christ on their foreheads, indicating they belong to Him. Those marked for approval in this vision were to be protected, while those without the mark were to be killed, symbolically losing their opportunity for the high calling.

Now, in Revelation 3:12, Jesus tells us that He will write the name of God, the New Jerusalem, and His name on our foreheads. The Old Testament provides more details about the names of God, Christ, and the city. In Jeremiah 23:6, we learn that Christ will be called "The Lord our Righteousness." Isaiah 9:6 states that Christ will also be known as Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace. Ezekiel 48:35 reveals that the city will be named "The Lord is there." In Exodus 3:13-14, God declares that His name is "I AM THAT I AM." Exodus 6:3 mentions that He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as “God Almighty,” but not by the name “YAHWEH.”

The name of the "city" on our forehead indicates our role in the new government and our participation in sharing the benefits of the New Covenant with the world. Just like the mark of the beast on the forehead signifies support for the apostate system, the name our Lord will write on us signifies our support for God's new government and salvation through Christ. In the Bible, a city is sometimes called "the mother of her inhabitants." In this way, the New Jerusalem will be the mother of all, symbolizing a unified salvation for both the Gospel Age and the Millennial Age. The heavenly Jerusalem is being built during this time, and once it is complete, it will descend to earth to help restore humanity from the fall in the garden.

Now the question asked is ... is this New Jerusalem, this Heavenly City, literal or symbolic? A careful examination of this chapter, as well as chapter 21 will persuade any student that a literal city was definitely not intended. In symbolic prophecy, a "city" represents a religious government supported by power and authority. Therefore, the "holy city, the New Jerusalem," symbolizes the established Kingdom of God, with the overcomers of the Gospel Church elevated and reigning in glory. The Church is also depicted, in this context, as a woman, "the bride, the Lamb's wife," in power and glory, supported by the authority of Christ, her husband. "And one of the seven angels came to me... saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he... showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem." (Rev. 21:9,10.) It's clear that we should "spiritualize" this narrative because John himself did, as he states, "And he carried me away in spirit." (Rev. 21:10.) This means that he viewed the wonders of this great city in a spiritual sense, not literally. The city's dimensions are given in furlongs, which, when converted to miles, would indicate it measures 1,500 miles in length, width, and height! Certainly, no such literal city will ever be built on this small globe of ours. By understanding the meaning of the symbols, we see a beautiful image representing the gradual establishment of the Divine Kingdom of the Heavens on earth, with the Church, the Lamb's wife, ruling in royal majesty alongside Christ, "the Prince of Peace."
 

Hiddenthings

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Now the question asked is ... is this New Jerusalem, this Heavenly City, literal or symbolic? A careful examination of this chapter, as well as chapter 21 will persuade any student that a literal city was definitely not intended. In symbolic prophecy, a "city" represents a religious government supported by power and authority. Therefore, the "holy city, the New Jerusalem," symbolizes the established Kingdom of God, with the overcomers of the Gospel Church elevated and reigning in glory. The Church is also depicted, in this context, as a woman, "the bride, the Lamb's wife," in power and glory, supported by the authority of Christ, her husband. "And one of the seven angels came to me... saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he... showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem." (Rev. 21:9,10.) It's clear that we should "spiritualize" this narrative because John himself did, as he states, "And he carried me away in spirit." (Rev. 21:10.) This means that he viewed the wonders of this great city in a spiritual sense, not literally. The city's dimensions are given in furlongs, which, when converted to miles, would indicate it measures 1,500 miles in length, width, and height! Certainly, no such literal city will ever be built on this small globe of ours. By understanding the meaning of the symbols, we see a beautiful image representing the gradual establishment of the Divine Kingdom of the Heavens on earth, with the Church, the Lamb's wife, ruling in royal majesty alongside Christ, "the Prince of Peace."
You're about 80% correct, well done!

In time, we will develop the restoration of David's fallen tent and how Christ will reign from his throne, with the twelve apostles judging the twelve tribes of Israel as promised.

For now, you're being shown the multitudinous bride, whose hope is in the return of Christ and the glory that will come with him.

Jane & I have paused this study for now as we look into what's been written and focus on the questions asked. But more than happy to respond to your replies.

I'll be away as of tonight with friends camping in the High Country and back Monday.

Thanks for your reply!
 
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