Will you go to heaven when you die? - (or the other place)

[Aunty Jane]

So, you now provided the members with the fact that you are not born again..

I knew this, and now they do..

I’m sure that this happy dance has filled you with joy….

So what are we to discern from your own version of Christianity that denies everything except what Paul taught? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? Is Paul your savior? Did Paul teach things that the 12 did not, or was he simply given another assignment to a different audience? Was he accepted by the other apostles? And when Judas defected, why wasn’t Paul then included as his replacement? Jesus knew he was coming, but did not reserve a place for him as part of the very foundations of his Kingdom.

See, this is the reason that you can't explain HOW a person becomes a Christian, as to become a Christian is to become born again., and that is why i kept asking you......as i needed you to prove that you're not born again.......and you have proven it.

Why, because it doesn’t fit your own definition? Who said yours was the right one? You have such an exaggerated opinion of your own opinion….
In fact, how many here even think you are nothing but a leader of your own CULT? Your posts are very big on condemnation, but lacking in love. You don’t teach what is orthodox except when it fits in with Paul’s teachings…..it’s weird….but it’s all yours.

So, YOUR CULT denies that you must be "born again"......as Jesus said., and that makes your denomination a Cross Rejecing, Heretical CULT, and you've just proven it, and because you never know when to stop trying to sell your Cult.....you'll. prove it again, @Aunty Jane .

We do not deny that the elect must be “born again”…but we have the biblical explanation of that, not the twisted one that you promote. These receive a “pledge” of their election whilst still on earth, but one does not need to be ”born again” to be a Christian.….only to be one of the “firstfruits”. (Rev 14:1-5)

It’s people like you who give a wrong impression, so that if they fail to have their mystical experience in the here and now, they feel that God has somehow rejected them…..often they give up because of all the confusion that you contribute to in the competition as to who is a “true Christian”?

Being baptized in water is a requirement for all Christians….but being baptized in the holy spirit is reserved for a limited number who have been specially chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

Those who will be their subjects, look forward to God restoring all things ‘on earth as they are in heaven’. This is what the Kingdom of God will do (Rev 21:2-4)……everyone being “born again” and “going to heaven” was never in God’s first purpose.…and is a false hope, not based on Scripture, which explains why your posts are usually devoid of any mention of God’s word. Mostly what we hear is your words…..a poor substitute, I think…

I call "Christianity"...what Jesus began on The Cross when He said....>"It is FINISHED"... (accomplished) and the Body of Christ was birthed.

You have a little “I” trouble….what was finished? completed? accomplished?

It was his earthly mission….he had completed what he was “sent” to do….to offer his life for the redemption of the human race.
The body of Christ was already in existence with the choosing of the 12. As they preached, more were added to the body.
Note what Jesus said in John 2:18-21…
”So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body.” (ESV)
The temple of his body was not his physical body but the body of his elect, who through his death and resurrection, now had the way opened to join him in the future. (1 Peter 2:4-5; Eph 2:21)

 

[Hiddenthings]

It was his earthly mission….he had complete what he was “sent” to do….to offer his life for the redemption of the human race.
The body of Christ was already in existence with the choosing of the 12. As they preached, more were added to the body.
Note what Jesus said in John 2:18-21…
”So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body.” (ESV)
The temple of his body was not his physical body but the body of his elect, who through his death and resurrection, now had the way opened to join him in the future. (1 Peter 2:4-5; Eph 2:21)

Their disobedience destroyed their temple (Hieron),
His obedience raised the temple (Naos)

Many Christians today place too much emphasis on feelings and not enough on understanding the strength, assurance, and confidence that come from knowing truth. Faith rooted in emotion alone is unstable, but faith anchored in truth, God’s Word, is unshakable.

Hebrews 6:19-20 (ESV)
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,
20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

When will this hope be revealed?

1 Peter 1:3-5 (ESV): 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

How will it be revealed at this last time?

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's worthy of discussion.

Yes…what about “Sheol”?

What did the Jews believe about death from their Scripture, rather than what their corrupt religious leaders taught in Jesus’ day?

Eccl 9:5-6; 10 is pretty straight forward….

”For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.” (NASB)

When death occurs, consciousness ceases…”the dead do not know anything”…even their “love and zeal” have “perished”….so the advice was…do whatever you need to do whilst you live, because at death, all activity ceases. There was no afterlife ever mentioned except by resurrection, which was to take place under the rule of Messiah’s kingdom…at some unknown time in the future…..Ecclesiastes was written about 1000 years before Christ began his ministry….and we are now almost 2000 years into the future and we still await Christ’s return. This give us some indication about how God counts time, compared to how we earth bound humans do.

In the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures (Hebrew to Greek, used by the apostles in Jesus day) “sheol” was translated as “hades”…..so “hades” means the same thing…..no one conscious in that place. The dead are not conscious anywhere…..the resurrection that Jesus spoke about in John 5:28-29 has not yet taken place.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Wick Stick
This scripture was posted in posts #82. FYI

1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again
to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for
a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes…what about “Sheol”?

29 references to the realm of the dead in the Bible.
One is in Ecclesiastes chapter 9 and two are in Acts chapter 2.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Eccl 9:5-6; 10 is pretty straight forward….

”For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.” (NASB)

When death occurs, consciousness ceases…

How can consciousness cease when you are going to Sheol? (the realm of the dead)

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

How can consciousness cease when you are going to Sheol?

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

[

Let us swallow them alive like Sheol
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit; Prov 1:12

Love poetic language - always make sense!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Their disobedience destroyed their temple (Hieron)

Yes….they had the opportunity for all the prophesies concerning the Messiah’s kingdom to include the whole nation, but through their continued disobedience, they lost their inheritance and God founded a new nation to take their place….”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) were no longer exclusively “Jewish” by birth but were chosen from the nations, adopted by God, and given a heavenly hope, whilst the Jews retained their earthly one….to this day without any sign of their Messiah.

His obedience raised the temple (Naos)

Indeed….the body of Christ began to be gathered with the first of Jesus’ apostles, and it continued to be built on those who responded to the upward call….indicating positions in the heavenly kingdom were being filled by the adopted children of God, now gathered from the nations.

Many Christians today place too much emphasis on feelings and not enough on understanding the strength, assurance, and confidence that come from knowing truth. Faith rooted in emotion alone is unstable, but faith anchored in truth, God’s Word, is unshakable.

Sometimes the false beliefs are also unshakable….supposedly rooted in the same Scripture, but given a different interpretation….so who is correct? God knows, and so does his appointed judge. Those whom Jesus describes in Matt 7:21-23 are shocked at his rejection of them, offering him their excuses as if he doesn’t know better….they were so sure that they had the truth……but Jesus has “never known” them.

Time will tell as to who has found the diamond in that huge pile of broken glass.

Hebrews 6:19-20 (ESV)
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,
20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

When will this hope be revealed?

This is for the elect who alone enter in “behind the curtain”, as it was torn in two at Jesus’ death, signaling that they too can now gain entry to heaven.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (ESV): 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

How will it be revealed at this last time?

The last time (“kairos”) is a designated period….when God reveals everything to his elect. These are “guarded by God’s power“ through the trials of these “last days”….”the time of the end” prophesied by Daniel, when Christ was due to make his appearance. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) His crowning as King was also seen by Daniel in vision…(Dan 7:13-14)

What is not understood by many is that Christ’s return is in two stages, which begins with his ”parousia” (his “presence”, not his coming) and indicated by a series of world events……this period ends with his “manifestation” as judge. This is the beginning and end of this “last time”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

29 references to the realm of the dead in the Bible.
One is in Ecclesiastes chapter 9 and two are in Acts chapter 2.

The Jewish Tanakh renders “Sheol” as “the grave”. The grave is “the realm of the dead“ since it is where all life ends……Sheol’s Greek equivalent is hades….so hades is also the grave. We all go there….and it is from the grave that the resurrection takes place. (John 5:28-29) You cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

 

[Aunty Jane]

How can consciousness cease when you are going to Sheol? (the realm of the dead)

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

Did Isaiah have a different belief about death than what was contained in Hebrew Scripture?

Figurative language was also quite common…..this is an example.

In the Jewish Tanakh, it is rendered..…
”Gehinnom from beneath quaked for you, toward your arrival; it aroused for you the giants, all the chiefs of the earth; it caused all the kings of the nations to rise from their thrones.”

By the time Jesus arrived, the Jewish religion had departed from their scriptural belief that death ended life, and they adopted the pagan Greek notion of a conscious afterlife. “Gehinnom” is similar to “Gehenna” which Jesus used to describe a place of eternal destruction for the incorrigibly wicked.…not a place of eternal conscious torment.

As Jesus said…
”Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in [fn]hell.” (Gehenna)
“Souls” are “destroyed” in Gehenna…..that in itself is an eternal punishment. Why do humans demand more than God?

“Sheol” is a word used in the Jewish tradition to refer to the general abode of the dead; (the common grave of all mankind) it was not a place of punishment.….but a place of rest.
“Gehenna” is used to solely describe a place of punishment for the wicked. Judaism had developed a different understanding of the state of the dead…..in an “afterlife” that their Scripture never spoke about.

The only “afterlife” mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures was by resurrection…..which was a restoration of life on earth, not a continuation of it in a spiritual realm.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes….they had the opportunity for all the prophesies concerning the Messiah’s kingdom to include the whole nation, but through their continued disobedience, they lost their inheritance and God founded a new nation to take their place….”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) were no longer exclusively “Jewish” by birth but were chosen from the nations, adopted by God, and given a heavenly hope, whilst the Jews retained their earthly one….to this day without any sign of their Messiah.

True the New Temple will be establish on Jew & Gentile though with its location still in Jerusalem as promised.

It seems as though you are a believer who is not doing this?

6 On your walls, O Jerusalem,
I have set watchmen;
all the day and all the night
they shall never be silent.
You who put the Lord in remembrance,
take no rest, 7 and give him (God) no rest
until he establishes Jerusalem
and makes it a praise in the earth

Jane, it seems that word Until is still giving you grief!

Still future...unfulfilled prophecy Jane!

Indeed….the body of Christ began to be gathered with the first of Jesus’ apostles, and it continued to be built on those who responded to the upward call….indicating positions in the heavenly kingdom were being filled by the adopted children of God, now gathered from the nations.

If you knew what this means "Matt 19:30 & 20:16" you would know Paul's secret!

I have many more angels to share with you Jane!

Sometimes the false beliefs are also unshakable….supposedly rooted in the same Scripture, but given a different interpretation….so who is correct?

Scripture and it's careful reading...

God knows, and so does his appointed judge. Those whom Jesus describes in Matt 7:21-23 are shocked at his rejection of them, offering him their excuses as if he doesn’t know better….they were so sure that they had the truth……but Jesus has “never known” them.

Time will tell as to who has found the diamond in that huge pile of broken glass.

This is for the elect who alone enter in “behind the curtain”, as it was torn in two at Jesus’ death, signaling that they too can now gain entry to heaven.

No entrance - as you have been shown the hope is coming!

But with who?

The last time (“kairos”) is a designated period….when God reveals everything to his elect. These are “guarded by God’s power“ through the trials of these “last days”….”the time of the end” prophesied by Daniel, when Christ was due to make his appearance. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) His crowning as King was also seen by Daniel in vision…(Dan 7:13-14)

The end of the Gentile times and you have been shown

What is not understood by many is that Christ’s return is in two stages, which begins with his ”parousia” (his “presence”, not his coming) and indicated by a series of world events……this period ends with his “manifestation” as judge. This is the beginning and end of this “last time”.

His parousia came in the form of a Roman Army in Ad 68-70 - His literal coming will be with the Angels of the Most High God to the Earth to raise and gather.

It's all on Earth...I deep down I think you know this...time and understanding will reveal this to you.

 

[Wick Stick]

There is another view on this. Born of water = natural childbirth.

[

I've heard that before, but why make such a pedantic stipulation? Are there people out there who haven't been born? No

 

[Wick Stick]

@Wick Stick
This scripture was posted in posts #82. FYI

1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again
to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for
a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[

If there's a question here, I don't know what it is. The verses are part of an opening doxology. It's a good example of how the early church put more emphasis on Jesus' resurrection than His death.

 

[Aunty Jane]

His parousia came in the form of a Roman Army in Ad 68-70 - His literal coming will be with the Angels of the Most High God to the Earth to raise and gather.

It's all on Earth...I deep down I think you know this...time and understanding will reveal this to you.

Not even close……sorry. You are barking up the wrong tree….your version doesn’t hold water….
I know what I know…and it’s nothing like what you claim to know…..please don’t hold your breath waiting for me to change my mind…..you’ll turn blue.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Jewish Tanakh renders “Sheol” as “the grave”. The grave is “the realm of the dead“ since it is where all life ends……Sheol’s Greek equivalent is hades….so hades is also the grave. We all go there….and it is from the grave that the resurrection takes place. (John 5:28-29) You cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

Everyone who passes into the afterlife is physically dead.
They leave their physical body behind. Everything else goes with them into the afterlife.
The dead have spiritual bodies. The souls of the dead.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
There is another view on this. Born of water = natural childbirth.

I've heard that before, but why make such a pedantic stipulation? Are there people out there who haven't been born? No

The context is discussing physical and spiritual life. Thus the comparisons. Birth and rebirth.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everyone who passes into the afterlife is physically dead.
They leave their physical body behind. Everything else goes with them into the afterlife.
The dead have spiritual bodies. The souls of the dead.

Can you show me where it says that in the Bible….? This is not what Israel’s Scripture taught them.
There is no “afterlife”…..no spirit body that passes from this realm to another at death. There is no life that continues.

The soul cannot exist without a body…..when the body dies the soul dies too. (Ezek 18:4)
You are the soul. The spirit is the breath in your lungs that animates every cell in your body. When breathing stops, it’s like unplugging an electrical appliance from a power source.

The Bible teaches resurrection…..not immortality of the soul.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Everyone who passes into the afterlife is physically dead.
They leave their physical body behind. Everything else goes with them into the afterlife.
The dead have spiritual bodies. The souls of the dead.

Can you show me where it say that in the Bible….?

That sounds like more work than I care to do on this.
And I know you won't buy it.

Might be worth a topic though.

[

 

[Behold]

That's a good point. It really should happen then... But...
Can we honestly say that a delayed baptism = NOT born again?

There is, to be = born again... and the NT refers to this as the "washing of regeneration".. and that is connected to Jesus who is the "living Water". So, this is the Holy Spirit giving the "new birth" to the Believer's Spirit as "born again", as a "new Creation in Christ".

Its not connected to Water Baptism

Water Baptism, is just water.
It has no spiritual power.

There are water cults that pretend that water is involved in a person's Redemption.
Its not, its only involved in water baptism, and nothing more.
Its a "figure"....... "symbolic"......only.
Its normally performed in public as a public confession that you've become a Chrisitan.
Water Baptism, is to be performed subsequent to Salvation.

If you read Acts 8, the NT explains WB perfectly.

The "Eunuch" wanted to be water baptized and Philip said...

A.) If you have BELIEVED with all your heart........= first.

Why that?
Because a person has to BELIEVE in Jesus......has to TRUST IN CHRIST before God will save them.

Our "FAITH is counted by GOD (on our behalf, as Christ's) Righteousness.

There is another view on this. Born of water = natural childbirth.

Born of water is Natural Childbirth.....as you are in your Mother's womb.......found where?
It a sack of fluid, and it breaks and you are born of water......you come out all WET.
This is you Earth Birth...day.

And Jesus says to go to Heaven, you must be......."BORN.......= AGAIN", which is the 2nd BIRTH Day., and its a birth of your Spirit performed by God's Holy Spirit., and this is how you beomee "ONE with God".
And without this, 2nd Birthday........a person is not forgiven, they do not possess Eternal life, and they will not go to Heaven after they die.

 

[Behold]

I’m sure that this happy dance has filled you with joy….

How can JW theology make a Christian Happy?

You are so deceived you believe this also?

So what are we to discern from your own version of Christianity that denies everything except what Paul taught?

If you had any idea at all, regarding what Paul's Gospel is..... you would not be here on the Forum trying to sell the members your demonic JW Theology.

It’s people like you who give a wrong impression,

Actually im always clear as a bell.
So, take it or leave it.
See with me, i only teach Paul's theology., His Doctrine, and His Doctrine explains that your Cult's theology, is a "doctrine of devils".

See, you can write more obtuse 50,000 word essays, in your new post, and none of it is connected to Reall Christianity, that is Based on The Cross of Christ, whereby a sinner may become forgiven and BORN AGAIN .

So, rave on raver........ as you love to hear yourself talk., but you have nothing to say that is worth hearing, regarding CHRISTIANITY.
Nothing,
And you'll prove it again, as what could a JW Cult member... possibly offer a Christian forum, that isn't of the devil's thelogy.?

A.) NOTHING