The one who is still to come

[Matthias]

“In modern times, nearly all scholarly authorities on the book of Revelation have interpreted the speaker in Rev 1.8 as God the Father, not Jesus Christ.”

(Kermit Zarley, “Is Jesus ‘the Lord God ... The Almighty’ In Revelation 1:8?”)

Is Jesus “the Lord God ... The Almighty” In Revelation 1.8?

Most distinguished commentators on the book of Revelation claim its first chapter in v. 7 tells about Jesus, but in v. 8 the speaker is God. And the Bible calls God "Almighty" seven other times, but it never calls Jesus that.

www.patheos.com

The footnote Zarley provides contains some examples of trinitarian scholars who affirm that the speaker is the Father, not Jesus.

If it were a certainty that Jesus is the speaker in Revelation 1:8 these trinitarian scholars - every one of whom affirms the Nicene Creed - would not make this concession to Jewish monotheism.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[MatthewG]

Could be the whole culmination of Yeshua, and his Father as one.

Father, and his Son sitting in the seat, which was to come, once conquering over all things and then becoming subject to the Father.

But I remember the imagery of, Daniel? Plus the purity of Christ, when they seen the vision on the mountain Jesus told his disciples not to tell anyone about that until his resurreciton. And Paul suggesting he would be subjected to his Father. And John mentioning Jesus stating about going to sit in the seat of his Father.

All of these places connect at least in my opinion.

 

[Matthias]

Okay; that was unexpected. "θεός but not ὁ θεός" implies Jesus is a subordinate god, which I would think would be unacceptable to both a Jewish monotheist and a trinitarian.

Many besides Jesus are identified as theos in scripture: angels, judges, idols.

Jesus isn’t a subordinate god in Jewish monotheism. He is God’s shaliah*

* Among Jewish monotheists who affirm that Jesus is the Messiah. Among Jewish monotheists who deny Jesus is the Messiah, he is not God’s shaliah.

 

[Matthias]

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks. I watched the video and I’m very familiar with Bauckham (though I’ve never met, spoken with or corresponded with him). You will find that what the speaker in the video says is almost verbatim what I say. However, we don’t reach the same conclusion. There are two major areas that I would appeal to in response to the speaker: 1. the Jewish concept of agency and 2. church history.

 

[talons]

That’s fine. Who is the speaker?

You’ve been offered two choices, so far.

A. Jesus (a trinitarian offering)

B. The God and Father of Jesus (a Jewish monotheist offering)

A. Jesus (I think I am only semi trinitarian )

Because we see almost the exact same thing said a couple of more times .
In Rev 2:8

7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

And in Rev 22:13 We have no doubt Jesus is speaking here .

Revelation 22:13 Context​

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Matthias]

And then there is Jesus himself. He is a Jewish monotheist. The God of Jewish monotheism / Jewish monotheists is only one person -> Jesus’ own God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. I’ve documented this so many times from both scripture and trinitarian scholarship that it should be obvious even to the disinterested that this is the foundation of my belief about who God and the Son of God are.

Jesus is the reason. No one has said anything yet that has shaken that foundation.

 

[Matthias]

A. Jesus (I think I am only semi trinitarian )

Because we see almost the exact same thing said a couple of more times .
In Rev 2:8

7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

And in Rev 22:13 We have no doubt Jesus is speaking here .

Revelation 22:13 Context​

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus shares titles with his own God. That presents no difficulties for Jewish monotheism. Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. That is a constraint of history.

The question that has to be asked (at least for me) is this: Who is Jesus’ own God?

 

[Matthias]

Jesus - the Messiah, Son of God - has come and will return.

Who is still to come? For me that’s an easy question to answer: the God and Father of Jesus - > Yahweh himself.

Yahweh himself and Jesus himself will both come and be present in the new earth.

 

[David in NJ]

I drummed up a short commentary of this verse 8 several years back that is still valid today as it was then...context rules the day along with the use of Hebraic poetic style. John introduced everyone quite clearly if one can seen his style of writing.

Rev 1:8...
Reserved here solely for the Father of Yeshua only, and for a good reason. As he is unique, in that he is the only one true God and there is no one else besides him. He alone is eternal.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV).

The front end or the beginning book end or compliment to verse 1:8 are verses 1:4 and 5

Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God. (NIV)

1. It's obvious that we are addressing first, the LORD God Almighty AND then his Son Jesus Christ in the process of introductions. Christ is noted as the faithful witness to these events only in this introduction as the first born .... etc.

2. And It’s obvious John used a poetic style for his introduction - it forms two ends with one rise in the middle. The OT is riddled with his style. You start out with first subject on the 'rise' then join the second at the peak and then back 'down' to the closing with the first subject again, for closure.
The start and the 'rise' with the LORD God the Father, Rev 1:4 - The peak with the ‘.and Jesus Christ...'. Rev 1:5-7 - then back down for closure with the LORD God the Father or YHWH again Rev 1:8.

'...Today there is a growing recognition of literary structural pattern in Hebrew called a chiasm, which usually denotes a number of parallel lines (a,b,b,a; a,b,c,b,a) forming an hourglass or bell curve shape, depending on how you have your axis view setup, often the central line(s) is emphasized...'[1]

Thus, for this example, a = LORD, the Father and b = The Son Jesus Christ

And finally, in verse 8, the angel ended the prologue or initial greeting from where he started, by reminding John and readers that the Lord God Almighty YHWH, not only is the ‘first and the last of everything, but he is also the only eternal Almighty one, who is and who is the come. The emphatic uniqueness of YHWH is expressed here as the only one authority in existence and that he is in charge! See also Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.

---

[1] (B. Utley 2012)

View attachment 64116

You do not understand Who Genesis Speaks of = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = 3

Genesis = IAM the Elohim of your fathers = Elohenu Abraham Elohenu Isaac Elohenu Jacob = 3
Gospel = IAM the Way the Truth the Life = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = 3

Therefore you do not understand Who Revelation Speaks of:
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 4:8
HOLY HOLY HOLY = 3
Lord God Almighty = 3

Can you see this = "says the Lord" = there is only one Lord = Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

THREE

 

[Matthias]

“The revelation of Jesus Messiah, which God gave him …”

(Revelation 1:1)

Who is this God?

 

[Matthias]

You are not understand Who Genesis Speaks of = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = 3

You don’t understand that the God of Genesis is the God of Jewish monotheism and Jesus is the likeness of one - > his own God.

Genesis = IAM the Elohim of your fathers = Elohenu Abraham Elohenu Isaac Elohenu Jacob = 3
Gospel = IAM the Way the Truth the Life = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = 3

HOLY HOLY HOLY = 3
Lord God Almighty = 3

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. Jewish monotheism isn’t trinitarian. You know that.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Jesus shares titles with his own God. That presents no difficulties for Jewish monotheism. Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. That is a constraint of history.

The question that has to be asked (at least for me) is this: Who is Jesus’ own God?

Jesus came as the Word that was made flesh. He was in a flesh body and was sent, even proceeded out of God, to do the will of God ....AND ....He WAS God. Scripture says it very plainly. As the Son of Man, He was subject to everything we are subjected to. We can't get around the fact that Scripture states that Jesus is the Word made flesh, that the Word (Jesus) is God ...and that He (Jesus/the Word) was in the beginning with God ...and that ALL THINGS were made by Him (Jesus/the Word) ...and without Him (Jesus/the Word) nothing was made that was made. Just take God at His Word. No need to use the carnal mind to explain away Who He is.

Btw .... isn't this another "Jesus isn't God" thread in disguise? Isn't this something @Angelina has said was not to be debated anymore?

 

[Matthias]

Agreement about the proper understanding of a verse of scripture between a ”Christian” member and an “Other Faith” member spins out of control when other “Christian” members jump in. News at 11.

***

Who speaks in verse 8? I affirmed it is the Father and provided confirmation from the concessions of trinitarian scholarship for consideration. Jewish monotheism and trinitarianism shake hands - causing “Christian” members to come in swinging.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus came as the Word that was made flesh. He was in a flesh body and was sent, even proceeded out of God, to do the will of God ....AND ....He WAS God. Scripture says it very plainly. As the Son of Man, He was subject to everything we are subjected to. We can't get around the fact that Scripture states that Jesus is the Word made flesh, that the Word (Jesus) is God ...and that He (Jesus/the Word) was in the beginning with God ...and that ALL THINGS were made by Him (Jesus/the Word) ...and without Him (Jesus/the Word) nothing was made that was made. Just take God at His Word. No need to use the carnal mind to explain away Who He is.

I’ve already addressed all of this elsewhere.

Btw .... isn't this another "Jesus isn't God" thread in disguise?

No. This is a “who is the speaker in Revelation 1:8?” thread.

Isn't this something @Angelina has said was not to be debated anymore?

I believe Jesus is God, within the framework of Jewish monotheism. That should suffice but wild eyed pistol wavers are free to go after Jewish monotheism, if they want to.

And just for the record, I don’t debate with anyone about anything.

 

[talons]

Who speaks in verse 8?

Jesus as I affirmed ,you did not refute the verses I offered and neither did the link you posted from Kermit Zarley .

I affirmed it is the Father and provided confirmation from the concessions of trinitarian scholarship for consideration.

The whole of continuity of this being the Revelation of Jesus it thrown off if it is said to be the Father speaking in Rev1:8 .
There is no reason to start dissecting the words in Rev1:8 to understand the complete picture , Rev 2:8 and Rev 22:13 complete the picture we are seeing .

 

[Matthias]

Jesus as I affirmed ,you did not refute the verses I offered and neither did the link you posted from Kermit Zarley .

If you’re laboring under the impression that I’m trying to refute you then you’re laboring under a false impression. I don’t attempt to refute anyone. Everyone must be convinced in their own mind.

The passages of scripture you quoted are compatible withJewish monotheism. I‘ll gently say to you as I gently say to all, if you aren’t persuaded that what I’ve said is true then don’t believe it. No one should believe something they are persuaded is false. (I made that point with someone else tonight but I don’t recall offhand what thread that was in.)

The whole of continuity of this being the Revelation of Jesus it thrown off if it is said to be the Father speaking in Rev1:8 .

I don’t think so, the Catholic member whom I was able to agree with didn’t think so, and trinitarian scholarship doesn’t think so. You do. What more is there for me to say? You must be allowed to believe what you are persuaded is true, no matter who or how many agree or disagree with you.

There is no reason to start dissecting the words in Rev1:8 to understand the complete picture , Rev 2:8 and Rev 22:13 complete the picture we are seeing .

See above.

By the way, the only reason I linked the article written by Zarley is that it contained the footnote backing up what I’ve said about the concession of trinitarian scholarship. He saved me some work.

 

[Lambano]

The whole of continuity of this being the Revelation of Jesus it thrown off if it is said to be the Father speaking in Rev1:8 .

John may be merely be claiming prophetic authority by invoking the "thus saith the Lord" formula like the OT prophets.

 

[talons]

The passages of scripture you quoted are compatible withJewish monotheism. I‘ll gently say to you as I gently say to all, if you aren’t persuaded that what I’ve said is true then don’t believe it. No one should believe something they are persuaded is false. (I made that point with someone else tonight but I don’t recall offhand what thread that was in.)

Let me ask you this , Who was speaking in Rev2:8 and Rev22:13 ?

 

[talons]

John may be merely be claiming prophetic authority by invoking the "thus saith the Lord" formula like the OT prophets.

Yeah , that is a possibility I had not thought of .