What Does it Mean…..?

[Aunty Jane]

Those with reborn spiritual senses and not just physical and mental senses: ears to hear and understand in spirit, and eyes to see and know and experience in spirit.

@JustMe made this post on another thread and some deemed the subject to be worthy of a thread of its own….

So in answer to JustMe I asked……

Can you tell us how it is that all who claim these “senses” with “eyes” and “ears” of understanding…and with “experiences in spirit”, do not all hold to the same beliefs?

If one is “born again”……how do they know? And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things? (1 Cor 1:10) Does God’s spirit divide people? Or does it unite them…..?

If this “spiritual” experience is not uniform across all denominations then, can it be from God…..or can it more likely be from the trickster who wants you to believe in an “experience” that not all can quite explain the purpose of?

Why do Christians need to be “born again”? What does it result in?

How would you answer? With Scripture of course….

 

[quietthinker]

@JustMe made this post on another thread and some deemed the subject to be worthy of a thread of its own….

So in answer to JustMe I asked……

Can you tell us how it is that all who claim these “senses” with “eyes” and “ears” of understanding…and with “experiences in spirit”, do not all hold to the same beliefs?

If one is “born again”……how do they know? And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things? (1 Cor 1:10) Does God’s spirit divide people? Or does it unite them…..?

If this “spiritual” experience is not uniform across all denominations then, can it be from God…..or can it more likely be from the trickster who wants you to believe in an “experience” that not all can quite explain the purpose of?

Why do Christians need to be “born again”? What does it result in?

How would you answer? With Scripture of course….

Why do you want an answer with scripture AJ? It doesn't appear to make any difference to your perspective.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why do you want an answer with scripture AJ? It doesn't appear to make any difference to your perspective.

Because without Scripture it is personal opinion…..and what is that worth?

How many opinions = truth? It is belief without substance.

 

[quietthinker]

Because without Scripture it is personal opinion…..and what is that worth?

How many opinions = truth? It is belief without substance.

Are you really interested in Truth or do you only want to justify what you think you understand?

 

[nedsk]

@JustMe made this post on another thread and some deemed the subject to be worthy of a thread of its own….

So in answer to JustMe I asked……

Can you tell us how it is that all who claim these “senses” with “eyes” and “ears” of understanding…and with “experiences in spirit”, do not all hold to the same beliefs?

If one is “born again”……how do they know? And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things? (1 Cor 1:10) Does God’s spirit divide people? Or does it unite them…..?

If this “spiritual” experience is not uniform across all denominations then, can it be from God…..or can it more likely be from the trickster who wants you to believe in an “experience” that not all can quite explain the purpose of?

Why do Christians need to be “born again”? What does it result in?

How would you answer? With Scripture of course….

I think the argument might hinge on 2 Corinthians 5:17, Consequently anyone united to Christ is a new creation. The old order has passed away. Behold, all has become new.

I guess you could describe that as born again but is that really what it means?

Now Nicodemus uses the phrase born again John 3:4. Jesus uses the phrases, born from above and born of the Spirit. Again I'm not sure it's the same thing.

There are likely others but again not sure they mean "born again".

 

[ScottA]

@JustMe made this post on another thread and some deemed the subject to be worthy of a thread of its own….

So in answer to JustMe I asked……

Can you tell us how it is that all who claim these “senses” with “eyes” and “ears” of understanding…and with “experiences in spirit”, do not all hold to the same beliefs?

If one is “born again”……how do they know? And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things? (1 Cor 1:10) Does God’s spirit divide people? Or does it unite them…..?

If this “spiritual” experience is not uniform across all denominations then, can it be from God…..or can it more likely be from the trickster who wants you to believe in an “experience” that not all can quite explain the purpose of?

Why do Christians need to be “born again”? What does it result in?

How would you answer? With Scripture of course….

It is written, "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body" (1 Corinthians 12:20).

Okay--there's some scripture for you. But in light of this being about differences existing under the same One Spirit, I may not always be so obvious.

Those born again, as it is also written, "have passed from death to life", an experience leaving one no doubt about the change. And yet we live in a strange time. This passing from death to life everlasting while remaining in a physical body still under the curse of sin and death--this is something new (since Pentecost) and unique. During these unique times, things are different than one might expect. Yes, we will all be all-knowledgeable--but not yet, not while we under what Paul referred to as "alive but remaining"--in the flesh, in our old bodies, and in the world--as I just said. Those are limiting factors. Which...as it is also written, we all do not presently have all spiritual gifts, but only "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers", etc,

So...don't be offended. Things are as they are meant to be.

 

[Behold]

@JustMe made this post on another thread and some deemed the subject to be worthy of a thread of its own….

If one is “born again”……how do they know?

I can show you many things, but i'll keep it fairly short.

The way you know you are born again...and NOT just "i was always going to church"........."brought up in church"... "Yeah i was water baptised"........ect, ect.........

Its because Jesus now lives on the inside of a Christian , and He wasn't in them when they were just Religious and water baptized and lost, or when they were just sinning and loving it, as their lifestyle.

And a person says...>>"well, how can you know you are saved".

We know it, because of the change in our conscience.......first of all, that is so, unique.
And what is that?

= A born again person, has been forgiven all sin, and they are now united spiritually with Holy God and Jesus The Christ...
This means that they are become ""the Temple of the Holy Spirit"......as "Christ in You, the hope of Glory".

("Those that have not the Spirit of God in them, are none of God's"....)

So, this spiritual union... has an instant and strong strong effect on the Conscience within a born again person.....whereby the best way to understand it...is they become very sin sensitive.....and they never were before, when they loved sin and sinning.

So, what has happened?

A.) The Holy Spirit has moved in, and He is engaged at all times within the conscience of a Born again Christian, (unless you totally quench Him)..... so, as HE is very sensitive to SIN.....this causes the CHRISTian to be the same.
A Christian......especially a new one.......will "see sin everywhere".....because they have become so sensitized to sin because of the Holy Spirit in them.
They will now see sin in a TV show where they never saw it before. They will hear sin it in a song they like, where they never discerned it before, and on and on this "sin sensitivity".. just keeps going and going....and revealing and revealing all your born again life.

There is also....most of the time (especially in a New Christian)....a NEW and strong desire to "tell others about Jesus""...about what has happened to you..the CHANGE in you, that is undeniable.....that the Family has noticed, that the Friends have noticed, that your unsaved MATE has noticed.... and that the person themselves has realized as their new reality.

See, being born again, as a 'NEW CREATION">....is exactly that.......exactly.

And then there is this..... When a Person has been born again for 10 yrs, 20, 50yrs....they will tell you..."when i look back on what i use to be, and how God changed Me"........ "When i see all the ways that God guided me all these years"...
Every Chrisitan can "look back" and see GOD doing things in their life....and they know it was God.
Sometimes they realize that God didnt answer a prayer that had He perfomed it, it would have ruined their life.
They KNOW it........because it was God all the time., and is... and remains so.

And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things?

There is only one NT Theology that is "chruch doctrine"' and Paul teaches it.
Any other is not correct for the "body of Christ"......So, when you have so many false doctrines, and fake churches......that are not built on Paul's Doctrine for The Church, then this is only going to clash and cause continuing strife.
This is why a "christain forum" is just , unfortunatley a place to fight.....and that is because ... "what is Paul's Doctrine".......is the core issue.. Its the root of all the theological strife.........because so few Chritians are taught Paul's doctrine.....in these end times..
Paul's doctrine ends cults, and reveals fake believers.......as His Doctrine completely shines The CROSS on YOU.

Reader......There is a "famine of the word of God"...... and that famine is......."What is Paul's Doctrine". ????????? "Huh'? "whats that". ?

So, there is no unity of the Faith. until that is resolved., and then as Paul teaches.......All have come into "one mind" as "as many as be perfect."

Philippians 2:2. "by being OF THE Same MIND"... which is the SAME THEOLOGY-Doctrine, the SAME Revelation, the same walk of faith.
-

 

[Lambano]

Makes me look at this one in a different light...

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think the argument might hinge on 2 Corinthians 5:17, Consequently anyone united to Christ is a new creation. The old order has passed away. Behold, all has become new.

I like the context of this Scripture…..can we explore it?….as it helps us see what Paul was talking about….

2 Cor 5:14-21…..
”For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have concluded, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died. 15 And he died for all so that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up.

16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. 18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.”

I like the word pictures that Paul creates here….”reconciliation” is what God desires….to gain back what Adam lost for all his children. What did we lose?
First and foremost, we lost our intimate relationship with Yahweh, requiring the services of a mediator, (a go-between) lovingly provided to facilitate communication between us and our Creator.
We lost physical, mental and moral perfection and are now saddled with sin and imperfection in our physical being, but we also lost spiritual perfection, like the three rebels did. This especially makes us vulnerable to the schemes of God’s adversary in setting up pseudo-spiritual agencies to lead us of in a multitude of different directions and away from God’s truth.
We lost paradise, the place we know in our hearts was meant to be our permanent home.

When we contemplate what was lost, we get a glimpse of what we will get back….but only if we accept the terms of that reconciliation.
The life that humans were offered in Eden was conditional, based upon their obedience…….conditions apply also to salvation. It is offered to all, but not all will accept the terms. God has done his part, now we have to do ours.

It is Christ’s love for us that motivated him to surrender his life for ours. Those who appreciate that God and his son were prepared to go through that difficult process in order to rescue them from a trap laid by the devil, (from which none of us could possibly ever extricate ourselves), deepens our love for both of them.

The rescue mission was based on the fact that we had sin and death thrust upon us as an awful inheritance. We did not enter into this life of sin by choice. The only ones who did that were satan, Eve and then Adam. Each selfishly made choices that forced a change in God’s plans for the human race, but only temporarily.

If we understand why God didn’t just eliminate the rebels and start again, but chose to solve the problem by giving the world over to the “god” they chose to obey, (Luke 4:5-7) God’s wisdom becomes obvious and his methods, though difficult and requiring endurance on our part, will achieve far reaching results….for all eternity. No one will ever be able to challenge God’s Sovereignty again.

So recognizing what we lost…..why we lost it…and how God planned a rescue mission at the outset is a very good place to start seeing the “big picture”.

To be continued…

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus came in the flesh as OT Scripture said he would…..a man.….born of a Jewish virgin, who would liberate his people, establish his Kingdom, and become the ruler of the world!
Jesus did not fulfill this description, so the Jews rejected him…..what some came to realize later, was that Jesus came to liberate Israel spiritually and lead them to better pastures, instead of having to bear the burden of the law that the Jewish leaders had turned into millstone around their necks, Jesus came to lighten their load and give them spiritual refreshment.

He also gave them a new hope….a heavenly one, not entertained by the Jews at all.

I guess you could describe that as born again but is that really what it means?

Being “born of water and spirit” is not well understood, as it is part of the process of being “born again”.
For what reason is this rebirth necessary? And why does someone have to be “born again” to see the Kingdom of God? The Bible does not teach reincarnation, so how are these “chosen ones”..…”reborn”?

They are not incarnated because these are taken from the earth to heaven to be rulers and priests in God’s heavenly Kingdom….they die a death like Christ’s…..they die in the flesh, but are born again in the spirit, that is…they are born again in a new spiritual body. However, this does not take place until their resurrection. (1 Thess 4:13-17)

Whilst in the flesh, they receive a “token” or “pledge” where their spirit receives God’s spirit, convicting them of their role in heaven and giving them an inordinate desire to be there with their Lord.

Paul spoke about this….in Eph 1:9-14…revealing the mystery that God revealed in his due time.

”He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” (NASB)


Also 2 Cor 5:6-9….
“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.” (NASB)

Paul speaks of two “homes“….one “in the body” and one “absent from the body”…..their desire was to be “with the Lord”…..and this could only be achieved by leaving their flesh behind and being resurrected with a new spiritual body (as Christ has) that can dwell in the presence of God in heaven….something no mere mortal can survive. (Exodus 33:18-20)

Now Nicodemus uses the phrase born again John 3:4. Jesus uses the phrases, born from above and born of the Spirit. Again I'm not sure it's the same thing.

There are likely others but again not sure they mean "born again".

Yes, John 3:5…Jesus said to Nicodemus….
“Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

It is a Christian requirement to be baptized in water….but not all are baptized in holy spirit. Only the elect, or “chosen ones” will have that privilege because only they will “enter the Kingdom of God” as “kings and priests”. (Rev 20:6) Their subjects will be on earth, bringing about reconciliation with God and reinstating his first purpose for the earth and mankind upon it. (Rev 21:2-4)

If we look at the big picture from the beginning to the end….we will see where satan has introduced a completely different understanding as to what God’s first purpose was….this in turn results in an expectation that is neither scriptural, nor has any bearing on why God put humankind on earth in the first place.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is written, "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body" (1 Corinthians 12:20).

Yes…but it is a united body, not a dismembered one, with bits of Jesus spread all over the world in different denominations, who are at odds with each other. (1 Cor 1:11)

Okay--there's some scripture for you. But in light of this being about differences existing under the same One Spirit, I may not always be so obvious.

That is where the problem lies……does the Christ exist divided? Where is the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”? It does not exist in the divided churches of Christendom.
God’s spirit promotes unity among his worshippers, not division.

Those born again, as it is also written, "have passed from death to life", an experience leaving one no doubt about the change. And yet we live in a strange time. This passing from death to life everlasting while remaining in a physical body still under the curse of sin and death--this is something new (since Pentecost) and unique. During these unique times, things are different than one might expect. Yes, we will all be all-knowledgeable--but not yet, not while we under what Paul referred to as "alive but remaining"--in the flesh, in our old bodies, and in the world--as I just said. Those are limiting factors. Which...as it is also written, we all do not presently have all spiritual gifts, but only "some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers", etc,

So...don't be offended. Things are as they are meant to be.

Things are exactly as they are “said” to be…..but hardly what they were ”meant” to be, unless you believe that the life we live now in a world governmentally imploding in on itself, is what God intended for us here? Or is it rather, the fall-out from decisions that were made back in Eden, that thrust this life upon us, against our will?

Who loves this world? If we do, we have no friendship with God. (James 4:4) This world under Satan’s domination (1 John 5:19) is the polar opposite of the one God originally planned for the human race….

“Reconciliation” is what God wants to take place, but first he had to address the slander that the devil told in Eden, painting him as a failure and withholding information from his children that was beneficial to them….
In order to prove his case God gave his adversary….“enough rope”.

Those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, are individually hand picked by God for the role they will play in bringing humankind back into reconciliation with their Creator.
“Many” are “called” by God to come back to him, but “few“ are “chosen” to be the means of that reuniting to take place. They make up the “administration” that will bring the human race back to God. (Eph 1:8-10)

Only those who are “born again” in a new spirit body will gain entry to a place where no humans can go. The transformation is something only God can perform, in the same way that he did with his son, resurrecting him in a new spirit body, so that he could return to his Father’s house to “prepear a place“ for those chosen ones.

In their desire to “go to heaven” most in Christendom have no idea what they are going to heaven for…..what is the purpose of creating mortal beings of flesh to live in paradise on earth, if only to turn them into spirits to live in heaven after an awful life of trials and tragedy, here?
God already had a large family of angels in heaven before the material Universe was even created….none of them needed a training ground….so why would we?

Unless we have the big picture as to why God put us mortals here in this material realm in the first place ….nothing makes a lick of sense.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Makes me look at this one in a different light...

This “sword” was also referring to the prophesy in Psalm 110:1-2…4-6…ESV

”The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies! . . . .The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth.”

What do we see there? Yahweh says to David’s “Lord” (the Messiah) that he was to wait for the time when God puts his ‘enemies under his feet’. Then he was to “rule in the midst of his enemies”…IOW, Christ’s rulership was not to begin peacefully, but whilst his enemies still held power.

The “sword” that Jesus spoke about, was to divide even family members against one another….(Matt 10:34-39) Love for those related in the flesh, could not outweigh love for God and his son.

David’s Lord, (Jesus) being appointed as a priest “after the order of Melchizedek” (i.e. a king/ priest) would “shatter kings on the day of his wrath”…a day of judgment that was foretold to alter the course of human history. No humans who loyally follow any human rulers or who side with family members against him, will survive….they have their loyalty completely misplaced. (Matt 7:21-23)

“Friendship with the world” has made them “enemies of God”. (James 4:4)

 

[ScottA]

Yes…but it is a united body, not a dismembered one, with bits of Jesus spread all over the world in different denominations, who are at odds with each other. (1 Cor 1:11)

That would be a common perspective, it would seem. But Jesus' bloodied and beaten body on the cross is divided day and night over many generations, one man divided as the light divided from, and at odds with, the darkness.

 

[ScottA]

God’s spirit promotes unity among his worshippers, not division.

Indeed it does. But...

That is where the problem lies……does the Christ exist divided? Where is the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”? It does not exist in the divided churches of Christendom.

...Such is the image of Christ on the cross, bloody, beaten, and in disarray, until the times are fulfilled. We are that body.

 

[ScottA]

Things are exactly as they are “said” to be…..but hardly what they were ”meant” to be, unless you believe that the life we live now in a world governmentally imploding in on itself, is what God intended for us here?

How shall I answer you? “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men?”

Your sentiment is not unlike Peter's, well intended--even as it should be. But God did not lose control of the fate of His creation in the garden-- On the contrary, He has purpose in all things just the way they are, and has intended it so. These are the acts of His atonement.

 

[ScottA]

Unless we have the big picture as to why God put us mortals here in this material realm in the first place ….nothing makes a lick of sense.

Amen to that!

 

[Aunty Jane]

That would be a common perspective, it would seem. But Jesus' bloodied and beaten body on the cross is divided day and night over many generations, one man divided as the light divided from, and at odds with, the darkness.

Paul’s words…..
”I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (1 Cor 1:10 ESV)
There were to be no divisions because there is one truth to which all must subscribe.

Such is the image of Christ on the cross, bloody, beaten, and in disarray, until the times are fulfilled. We are that body.

That is not the body Paul described….the physical body of Jesus was ripped by flagellation and beatings, he was battered and bruised, but nowhere do we see that description of his spiritual body….Paul said that his efforts in the ministry were so that his brothers could be “harmoniously joined together in love.” (Col 2:1-3)

How shall I answer you? “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men?”

Your sentiment is not unlike Peter's, well intended--even as it should be. But God did not loose control of the fate of His creation in the garden-- On the contrary, He has purpose in all things just the way they are, and has intended it so. These are the acts of His atonement.

No one said that God “lost control of the fate of his creation in the garden”…..what the Bible says is that God handed creation over to the devil to prove his claims….that Jehovah was a lousy God who did not care about his children, even keeping beneficial knowledge from them…..in handing over the reigns to his enemy, God never once lost control, but in every instance when an action was needed, he stepped in and fixed it…always one step ahead of his adversary.

God’s original purpose for the human race is not reflected in satan’s rulership of this world in any way…..what God allowed the devil to do was try his best to show humans that his way was better that Jehovah’s…..humans were never supposed to rule each other, so human rulership under the devil’s control was never going to work…..God couldn’t tell them this because they didn’t want to listen….so instead, he showed them exactly where independence from their Creator would lead.…following fallen men instead of God….and they are still doing it.

So, have we got the message yet?

 

[ScottA]

Paul’s words…..
”I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (1 Cor 1:10 ESV)
There were to be no divisions because there is one truth to which all must subscribe.

That is a different image. Both images however, are given to us by God, neither of which can be denied. Even so, it is good to seek the image of unity rather than the image of the suffering Christ which we now are.

 

[ScottA]

That is not the body Paul described….the physical body of Jesus was ripped by flagellation and beatings, he was battered and bruised, but nowhere do we see that description of his spiritual body….Paul said that his efforts in the ministry were so that his brothers could be “harmoniously joined together in love.” (Col 2:1-3)

Again, the one image is of this body in the flesh, in the world, while the other (spiritual) image is not yet seen: "So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

So, yes, in spirit we have unity in Christ...however, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44).

 

[ScottA]

No one said that God “lost control of the fate of his creation in the garden”…..what the Bible says is that God handed creation over to the devil to prove his claims….that Jehovah was a lousy God who did not care about his children, even keeping beneficial knowledge from them…..in handing over the reigns to his enemy, God never once lost control, but in every instance when an action was needed, he stepped in and fixed it…always one step ahead of his adversary.

God’s original purpose for the human race is not reflected in satan’s rulership of this world in any way…..what God allowed the devil to do was try his best to show humans that his way was better that Jehovah’s…..humans were never supposed to rule each other, so human rulership under the devil’s control was never going to work…..God couldn’t tell them this because they didn’t want to listen….so instead, he showed them exactly where independence from their Creator would lead.…following fallen men instead of God….and they are still doing it.

So, have we got the message yet?

You said:

Things are exactly as they are “said” to be…..but hardly what they were ”meant” to be

...And because your description indicated that God did not mean for things to go the way they did--I explain how, Yes, He did mean them to go the way they did--because He is indeed in control. But if you want to look at it differently, it is also written, by example of Joseph and his brothers, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive" (Genesis 50:20).