Spoken by the prophets? Yes, but where?
- Thread starter Matthias
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In order to see it we‘ll need to look at the passage in Hebrew. Here’s a link to a Hebrew - English side by side translation.
The Hebrew word we’re looking for in Isaiah 11:1 is netzer. In English it is translated “branch”.
”A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse; and a branch [Heb. netzer] out of his roots will bear fruit.”
We’re one step closer. How do we get from netzer / branch to the prophesy about Jesus?
The Hebrew word we’re looking for in Isaiah 11:1 is netzer. In English it is translated “branch”.
”A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse; and a branch [Heb. netzer] out of his roots will bear fruit.”
We’re one step closer. How do we get from netzer / branch to the prophesy about Jesus?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Well, Isaiah 11:1-4 could definitely be considered a Messianic prophesy. And if Jesus was considered legally a descendent of Jesse through Joseph (which Matthew does; see Matthew 1:5), then yes, it applies to Jesus.
A netzer-ene?
As an unrepentant punster myself, I appreciate a good play on words. But in translating a pun from Hebrew to Greek to English, the meaning tends to get lost. I will note that the OT does contain a lot of Hebrew word-play. Does that mean that God is a punster too?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
“The answer lies in the Hebrew.”
(Rabbi Brian Samuel)
The rabbi provides the next step.
Is the rabbi correct? I recommend consulting multiple Christian Commentaries.
For a moment, let’s forget what the rabbi tells us. (And also my suggestion to consult Christian commentaries.)
The skeptical Jew will ask the pertinent question: “Where in the prophets do you find this prophecy?”
Our answer: “Well, nowhere.”
The skeptical Jew nods his head approvingly (and glances at the nearby trash receptacle.)
Leaving us to ask the question: “Matthew, what have you done to us?”
***
A word to atheists and agnostics. Are you listening to the believing Jew or the skeptical Jew?
In the skeptical Jew you have an ally of sorts. In the believing Jew, an adversary.
***
P. S.
If we’re going to be apologists, we’re going to be ambushed. It comes with the territory.
“Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.”
(1 Peter 3:15, AMPC)
Our answer can be at times: “I don’t know where, but I’ll look into it and get back to you with an answer.”
If / when it is, be a person of your word. Look into the matter and follow-up with an answer.
The skeptical Jew will ask the pertinent question: “Where in the prophets do you find this prophecy?”
Our answer: “Well, nowhere.”
The skeptical Jew nods his head approvingly (and glances at the nearby trash receptacle.)
Leaving us to ask the question: “Matthew, what have you done to us?”
***
A word to atheists and agnostics. Are you listening to the believing Jew or the skeptical Jew?
In the skeptical Jew you have an ally of sorts. In the believing Jew, an adversary.
***
P. S.
If we’re going to be apologists, we’re going to be ambushed. It comes with the territory.
“Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.”
(1 Peter 3:15, AMPC)
Our answer can be at times: “I don’t know where, but I’ll look into it and get back to you with an answer.”
If / when it is, be a person of your word. Look into the matter and follow-up with an answer.
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A motto: Be prepared.
The Boy Scouts? Surely.
Apologists? You better you better you bet. (That’s catchy. Someone ought to use that line in a song. But who?)
The Boy Scouts? Surely.
Apologists? You better you better you bet. (That’s catchy. Someone ought to use that line in a song. But who?)
We have been left this way before trying to understand the thinking process of the Ones who wrote the scriptures .
Good thing we as Christians have the Holy Spirit to guide us
.Be ready to heed the guiding of the Holy Spirit in what you say to someone . The Holy Spirit can point you in a direction that does not really make sense to you but the Holy Spirit has all knowledge and we have to submit to that Authority .
The thinking process of those who wrote scripture is Jewish.
Good thing we as Christians have the Holy Spirit to guide us
Yes.
Not everyone who says the Holy Spirit is guiding them has the Holy Spirit guiding him or her. If what a person is saying doesn’t make sense, at a minimum that’s a caution light.
Good thing we as Christians have the Holy Spirit to guide us
This might be a topic for a new thread but I’ll broach it here: Good thing the Messiah had / has the Holy Spirit to guide him.
Please let me know if you think it’s a good topic for discussion.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Yes of course . Matthew could have known many things that are not available to us is what I am trying to say .
True .
Surely , but I was talking about the information we receive from the Holy Spirit .
Yeah , might be a good topic for discussion .
“In Jewish tradition this netzer is recognized as the Messiah.”
If I were speaking with a Jew I would ask him if he could confirm the rabbi’s assertion.
”So when Matthew says the prophets spoke of him being a Nazarene, he’s using a Hebrew word play.
Yeshua, from ‘Natzeret’ is the promised ‘Netzer’ - the Branch from David’s line.”
Would Matthew’s Jewish audience recognize the word play? Maybe so, maybe not. That is why I would ask the question about Jewish tradition.
If the word play isn’t confirmed by the Jew, that is a line of investigation to be pursued.
If the word play is confirmed by the Jew, a point of agreement has been established. In the art of persuasion, points of agreement advance the conversation and give it direction for development.
If you hope to persuade someone, get the person moving toward you. Draw them in; draw them near. That is what I see Matthew doing. It doesn’t mean that Matthew has fully persuaded his audience that what he is saying about Jesus is true. What he said will have caused his audience to pause and consider. There still remains work to be done.
That may cause us to become confused but it should cause us to think.
”What is a riddle? ‘A riddle is a statement or question or phrase having a double or veiled meaning, put forth as a puzzle to be solved. Riddles are of two types: enigmas, which are problems generally expressed in metaphorical or allegorical language that require ingenuity and careful thinking for their solution, and conundra, which are questions relying for their effects on punning in either the question or the answer.’
God doesn’t want to confuse us when He speaks to us. However, He looks to be sought after. Oftentimes, He does this to increase our appetite for Him … .”
(Hakeem Collins, “Dark Speeches and Riddles”)
Dark Speeches and Riddles — Destiny Image
“With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” —Numbers 12:8…
www.destinyimage.com
I think that it does.
Strider324
New Member
And still.... we know the attributes of the Messiah from the undisputed experts - the Hebrews who literally wrote the book on the subject. What those attributes do NOT include: a virgin birth, a crucifixion, a resurrection, a birth in Bethlehem, a life in Nazareth - nor indeed any divine qualities whatsoever. I find the quote mining and perversion of OT scripture to create a whole new 'Messiah' quite nauseating....
www.bbc.co.uk
The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.
www.bbc.co.uk
And still.... we know the attributes of the Messiah from the undisputed experts - the Hebrews who literally wrote the book on the subject. What those attributes do NOT include: a virgin birth, a crucifixion, a resurrection, a birth in Bethlehem, a life in Nazareth - nor indeed any divine qualities whatsoever. I find the quote mining and perversion of OT scripture to create a whole new 'Messiah' quite nauseating....
The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.
You’re choosing a side in a Jewish affair. The side that you’ve chosen are unbelievers. That is what appeals to you. After you’ve used them, you kick them to the curb. Your unbelief goes far beyond theirs.
The true undisputed experts on the Messiah are those who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised, prophesied, raised up and sent by the God whom you don’t believe exists.
Strider324
New Member
Well, if you provide me with your bona fides as a mind reader, I’ll be happy to consider them. Barring that, you’re welcome to your fringe view of how mainstream Judaism got so much wrong about their own religion and Messiah.
I’m not a mind reminder. I’m listening to a Jewish rabbi explain what Matthew is talking about.
The God of Judaism - whom you don’t believe exists - explains what went wrong in Judaism.
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