Why am I not a Christian?

[Riven]

So, angry with God and with Messiah. I think there’s going to be a lot of that, but I think there will be anger at self too. You’re right that it won’t be a stroll in the park. It will be a terrifying experience.

Have you read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

No, I haven't.

So when you said “there would be relief in the sense that I wouldn’t have to worry about it anymore either way” you’re not worried about it now but expect to be worried about it, briefly, then?

I meant that I would no longer have to worry about existence, whether or not Christianity is true, etc. Ombs of the perks of non-existence is no longer having to be concerned about anything.

You want to be destroyed, don’t you? Would you tell him that?

No, I don't want to be destroyed. I'd tell him that I couldn't force myself to believe something, and if he insisted on destroying me for it, I would call him petty and pathetic and tell him to get on with it.

Why will you be angry with God and with Messiah when they‘re going to grant your desire to cease to exist forever?

If it were my desire at the time, I wouldn't be angry. I still don't like being govern ultimatums by divine beings though. It's so uncivilized.

 

[Matthias]

Christianity - securing its control over its victims by the force of the 2 most powerful promises in history - the Bribe of Eternal Life, always tied to the Threat of Eternal Suffering. Well played, church fathers....

The church fathers aren’t of my faith.

 

[Strider324]

The church fathers aren’t of my faith.

Not interested in your fringe faith. My post speaks to mainstream Christians.

 

[Matthias]

No, I haven't.

You should read it some time. It will offer you good insight about what is coming.

I meant that I would no longer have to worry about existence, whether or not Christianity is true, etc.

If you aren’t worried about it now and you don’t think you’ll be worried about it then, I don’t see why you mentioned worrying about it at all.

Ombs of the perks of non-existence is no longer having to be concerned about anything.

You don’t see any downside to not existing?

No, I don't want to be destroyed. I'd tell him that I couldn't force myself to believe something, and if he insisted on destroying me for it, I would call him petty and pathetic and tell him to get on with it.

He will.

If it were my desire at the time, I wouldn't be angry. I still don't like being govern ultimatums by divine beings though. It's so uncivilized.

So then you’re in rebellion against God and Messiah. That is the story of unbelieving and disobedient mankind. They‘ll put down the rebellion in due time.

The plan is unfolded for you.

 

[Riven]

Terrifying situation, wouldn’t you agree @Riven? Can you imagine being trapped in that? Wouldn’t you escape it if you could? Wouldn’t you want your loved ones to escape it if they could? If you couldn’t escape but you could warn your family members to avoid coming into the area, wouldn’t you? Would you warn your neigbors?

There won’t be any help coming in Gehenna. No one will put out the fire there. It will burn until there is nothing left for it to consume.

It is horrible if it's true. It's horrible that God would do such a thing when it isn't necessary. Why can't he just... not throw them into the lake of fire?

 

[Matthias]

It is horrible if it's true. It's horrible that God would do such a thing when it isn't necessary.

It is necessary.

Why can't he just... not throw them into the lake of fire?

Rebels are punished by the king.

You’ve been offered a pardon and turned it down.

 

[Riven]

It is necessary.

Why? He's God. He can't forgive people for the crime of not being able to believe something?

Rebels are punished by the king.

Yeah, but people aren't rebelling. They simply cannot make themselves believe something. They can't help it. It's like punishing a paraplegic for not walking.

 

[Strider324]

It is horrible if it's true. It's horrible that God would do such a thing when it isn't necessary. Why can't he just... not throw them into the lake of fire?

Well, it has to, doesn't it? To be true to its nature, anyway. This is the same god that was apparently so angry with Pharaohs heart softening - therefore risking the release of its people... and denying it the joy of slaughtering thousands of children - that it removed Pharaohs free will and hardened his heart again. Infinite punishments for finite crimes is a hallmark of this god. And what better way to secure obedience than by the Threat of Eternal Hell? It's worked for millennia now.

 

[Matthias]

Why? He's God. He can't forgive people for the crime of not being able to believe something?

You are able to believe. You’ve chosen not to.

Yeah, but people aren't rebelling.

That’s not what God has said.

They simply cannot make themselves believe something. They can't help it. It's like punishing a paraplegic for not walking.

Listening to you talk, it strikes me as a rehearsal for what you’re going to be saying when the judgement time comes.

“Weeping and gnashing of teeth”

Your anger at God and Messiah now over what you think is unjust behavior on their part is likely going to be amplified as you see the smoke and the flames, and as you hear the wailing and cursing of those who are with you in the place of destruction.

 

[Riven]

You should read it some time. It will offer you good insight about what is coming.

You're right. When I get the time, I will read it.

If you aren’t worried about it now and you don’t think you’ll be worried about it then, I don’t see why you mentioned worrying about it at all.

Because you never know. Sometimes things just sneak up on you. Lol.

You don’t see any downside to not existing?

Of course not. The downside is that you no longer have any agency or awareness. The upside is that you aren't aware of this fact.

So then you’re in rebellion against God and Messiah. That is the story of unbelieving and disobedient mankind. They‘ll put down the rebellion in due time.

The plan is unfolded for you.

I want God to respect my agency. I'm not a robot.

 

[Matthias]

I don’t have much else to say at the moment @Riven. I’ve done what the watchman has been commissioned to do - I’ve warned you. I urge you to repent and I accept your decision not to. There‘s still time - I don’t how much time - for you to change the path you’re on.

God has spoken to you in this thread. So too has the devil.

 

[Riven]

You are able to believe. You’ve chosen not to.

No. This is exactly the problem. This right here is why there is so much misunderstanding between Christians and everyone else. You think that we know that it's truth like you do, but that we simply choose to deny it. But that is not so. We are physically incapable of believing it. That's why I compared it to being angry at a paraplegic for not walking.

"You're not crippled! You just don't believe you can walk!"

That’s not what God has said.

There's a difference between someone that believes Christianity is true, but rejects it and someone that doesn't know if it's true or not and remains agnostic. To put these two people in the same category of rebellion, I think is wrong.

Listening to you talk, it strikes me as a rehearsal for what you’re going to be saying when the judgement time comes.

“Weeping and gnashing of teeth”

Your anger at God and Messiah now over what you think is unjust behavior on their part is likely going to be amplified as you see the smoke and the flames, and as you hear the wailing and cursing of those who are with you in the place of destruction.

If it's true, then yeah, perhaps it is a bit of a rehearsal. Wouldn't you be angry were you in my shoes?

 

[Matthias]

No. This is exactly the problem. This right here is why there is so much misunderstanding between Christians and everyone else. You think that we know that it's truth like you do, but that we simply choose to deny it. But that is not so. We are physically incapable of believing it. That's why I compared it to being angry at a paraplegic for not walking.

"You're not crippled! You just don't believe you can walk!"

The lord Jesus Messiah is the truth, the way, and the life. I think you remember enough of the Bible that you’ll recall that he healed the lame.

There's a difference between someone that believes Christianity is true, but rejects it and someone that doesn't know if it's true or not and remains agnostic. To put these two people in the same category of rebellion, I think is wrong.

I spoke to you about the glimmer of hope that there is in the wideness of his mercy. People will be judged on what they reasonably could have known and what they chose to do.

If it's true, then yeah, perhaps it is a bit of a rehearsal. Wouldn't you be angry were you in my shoes?

I would. Despite what you think - the devil is delighted with what you think - you don’t have to remain in your shoes.

If I were back in your shoes, I’d go to the one who offers a new pair.

 

[Riven]

Well, it has to, doesn't it? To be true to its nature, anyway. This is the same god that was apparently so angry with Pharaohs heart softening - therefore risking the release of its people... and denying it the joy of slaughtering thousands of children - that it removed Pharaohs free will and hardened his heart again. Infinite punishments for finite crimes is a hallmark of this god. And what better way to secure obedience than by the Threat of Eternal Hell? It's worked for millennia now.

If there is a God, I refuse to believe he is anything like what we read in the bible. Especially the Old Testament. Commanding the Israelites to dash the babies heads against the rocks, among other things.

 

[Matthias]

If there is a God, I refuse to believe he is anything like what we read in the bible. Especially the Old Testament. Commanding the Israelites to dash the babies heads against the rocks, among other things.

Listen to yourself. You’ve refused to believe.

There is a God and he is the God of the Old Testament (and the God of the New Testament).

 

[Strider324]

If there is a God, I refuse to believe he is anything like what we read in the bible. Especially the Old Testament. Commanding the Israelites to dash the babies heads against the rocks, among other things.

Que the excuses for why this is not a problem for them. They are legion....

 

[Riven]

Listen to yourself. You’ve refused to believe.

There is a God and he is the God of the Old Testament (and the God of the New Testament).

I've refused to believe that specific aspect of God's character. It seems man made to me. The reason Islam is so violent is because it's central figure was a warlord. The God of the OT is very warlike. Jesus however, is much more kind and compassionate to the imperfect humans.

 

[Matthias]

I've refused to believe that specific aspect of God's character.

God can’t be separated from his character. You refuse to believe his character, you refuse to believe God.

. It seems man made to me.

It isn’t man made. It’s God revealed.

The reason Islam is so violent is because it's central figure was a warlord. The God of the OT is very warlike. Jesus however, is much more kind and compassionate to the imperfect humans.

Jesus is the perfect image of the Old Testament God, his God, the Father.

Jesus is going to slay the wicked when he returns and have the wicked reduced you to ashes.

You’ve seen the severity and kindness of God.

You’ve sided against him. You’ve nevertheless been the recipient of his kindness.

You‘re on track now to experience his severity.

 

[Strider324]

I've refused to believe that specific aspect of God's character. It seems man made to me. The reason Islam is so violent is because it's central figure was a warlord. The God of the OT is very warlike. Jesus however, is much more kind and compassionate to the imperfect humans.

This discussion serves to highlight the inferior morality of Christianity. You and I do good and avoid bad because of our evolved empathy. Christians do good due to the Bribe of Heaven, and avoid doing bad to avoid the Threat of Hell. They will say that's not true, but they can never provide evidence for their claim. Secular Humanists and non-theists don't have that problem. No one can ever claim we lust for a heaven or fear a hell we don't believe in.

 

[Riven]

God can’t be separated from his character. You refuse to believe his character, you refuse to believe God.

That's fair point. You very well could be right about that.

It isn’t man made. It’s God revealed.

But he has all of these human traits. Fits of rage, jealousy, etc...

Jesus is going to slay the wicked when he returns and have the wicked reduced you to ashes.

You’ve seen the severity and kindness of God.

You’ve sided against him. You’ve nevertheless been the recipient of his kindness.

You‘re on track now to experience his severity.