Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So do you reject my statement that all churches have false doctrine or that Catholics can get saved?
I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity
- Thread starter NotTheRock
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hiddenthings
Member
@Ronald Nolette You are right that all churches have false doctrine / understanding however if a command is given to come out of her and you remain you cannot be saved.
David Lamb
Active Member
But in view of what John has already written in Chapter 1, that cannot refer to the life Jesus has as God. In John 1 we read that the Word (Christ) was in the beginning with God and the Word was God. Don't you believe that God the Son is eternal?
But that is true of both of us. Yes I continue to believe as I do, but you continue to believe what you do.
Hiddenthings
Member
What "Life" was given?
Logos was from the beginning and the Logos became flesh. God manifest in and through the flesh.
It appears you would explain away the Life to uphold what?
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Life was granted by God because Jesus was vindicated (made right) by the Spirit.
None of these things can be said of God.
Hiddenthings
Member
@David Lamb there is not more than one Life on offer in the Bible....and it is God's alone to impart.
Here is Jesus himself referring to this Life which God gave him.
and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. Re 1:18.
The title "Living One" refers to eternal life, the Life that Jesus received from His Father.
When he died, it was the end of his mortal, human life, just as we too will experience death. But when he declares, "Behold, I am alive forevermore," it speaks of the eternal life (immortality which God alone possesses) that God imparted to His Son, a life that can never die.
Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep 1 Corinthians 15:20
Jesus is the first begotten from the dead Colossians 1:18
But, the New Spiritual Creation which is now in him is John 1:1
Hope that helps.
By the way, Revelation 1:18 would hold no real significance if Jesus had already inherently possessed eternal life beforehand, it would render the statement meaningless or redundant.
Here is Jesus himself referring to this Life which God gave him.
and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. Re 1:18.
The title "Living One" refers to eternal life, the Life that Jesus received from His Father.
When he died, it was the end of his mortal, human life, just as we too will experience death. But when he declares, "Behold, I am alive forevermore," it speaks of the eternal life (immortality which God alone possesses) that God imparted to His Son, a life that can never die.
Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep 1 Corinthians 15:20
Jesus is the first begotten from the dead Colossians 1:18
But, the New Spiritual Creation which is now in him is John 1:1
Hope that helps.
By the way, Revelation 1:18 would hold no real significance if Jesus had already inherently possessed eternal life beforehand, it would render the statement meaningless or redundant.
Like the solas and osas. False doctrine yet you remain in them so you can't be saved. You folks need to show your credentials to speak authoritively about Scripture. Don't tell me you went to "bible college" please
Hiddenthings
Member
Not I - failed year 10 English twice! You don't need credentials to come out of something which is false...no brainer!
David Lamb
Active Member
When Christ (the Word, as John calls Him in John 1) was in the beginning with God, and was God, did He have life? He must have done. Indeed John wrote in that chapter:
“He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” (Joh 1:2-4 NKJV)
As for John 5:26, if we look at it in the context of v27, it seems to refer to His life on earth:
““For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, “and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:26-27 NKJV)
He wasn't eternally Son of Man. That title applies after His incarnation.
You seem to make a distinction between "God" and "Jesus." Does that mean that you do not believe in the deity of Christ?
Hiddenthings
Member
He did not exist only in the Logos (thought) of God.
God cannot grant Jesus Life if you say he was always in possession of it!
You are referring to the New Spiritual Creation - John even begins his Gospel echoing Genesis 1:1 - but care is needed David, because the Life which was in Christ during his mortal life were the Words of his Father which you well know is true. Jesus only became the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead!
who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power (HOW?) according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.
I can tell you have not thought this subject through.
Nice try David! I bolded the red as God cannot have mortal life within Himself - impossible!
The Bible has revealed to you the true Deity.
Read for yourself!
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life (eternal), so also the Son gives life to whom he will. Jn 5:20–21.
Because the Father has given the Son to have eternal life.
The Bible is clear that immortality belongs to God alone!
Hiddenthings
Member
Hiddenthings
Member
@David Lamb maybe you might continue to resist this truth. It's possible those who think they are convinced might seek to force notions upon the Word which are not present.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is IN his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:11–12
Can you see the implication, David?
If you deny that God gave Jesus life, then you're also denying that he truly died, that he overcame sin nature and death, and that there is any inheritance to be shared. In that case, Jesus could not be the firstfruits of them that slept or the firstborn from the dead.
The consequences of such a view would unravel the entire foundation of salvation, the saving work accomplished in the one man whom God raised from death to life.
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Heb 5:7
He either needed Life or he did not!
You say, Jesus did not therefore, you do not believe in the same Jesus as the Apostles
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is IN his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:11–12
Can you see the implication, David?
If you deny that God gave Jesus life, then you're also denying that he truly died, that he overcame sin nature and death, and that there is any inheritance to be shared. In that case, Jesus could not be the firstfruits of them that slept or the firstborn from the dead.
The consequences of such a view would unravel the entire foundation of salvation, the saving work accomplished in the one man whom God raised from death to life.
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Heb 5:7
He either needed Life or he did not!
You say, Jesus did not therefore, you do not believe in the same Jesus as the Apostles
Last edited:
Hiddenthings
Member
@David Lamb, there's another important point to consider:
If you don’t believe that God gave His Son eternal life, then what exactly are you expecting to receive when he returns?
As it is written: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4).
Christ is not the source of life in and of himself, God alone possesses immortality (1 Tim. 6:16). But God has placed His life in the Son, making Jesus the first to receive that life from the dead—the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruits of those who sleep.
You have plenty to digest David.
If you don’t believe that God gave His Son eternal life, then what exactly are you expecting to receive when he returns?
As it is written: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4).
Christ is not the source of life in and of himself, God alone possesses immortality (1 Tim. 6:16). But God has placed His life in the Son, making Jesus the first to receive that life from the dead—the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruits of those who sleep.
You have plenty to digest David.
David Lamb
Active Member
That is not what John wrote. He wrote that the Word (Logos) was in the beginning with God and the Word was God, not that the Word was God's thought. Later, in John 1:14, he says that the same Word became flesh.
God the Father could give Him bodily life, at the incarnation. Indeed, In Hebrews we read:
“Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.” (Heb 10:5 NKJV)
No, He has always been God's Son. He didn't become God's Son at the resurrection. Before the crucifixion we read:
“And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.”” (Mt 26:63-64 NKJV)
He doesn't say, "No, I am not the Son of God yet, but I will become the Son of God after you have crucified Me and I have risen from the dead."
And the bible is also clear that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man.
David Lamb
Active Member
The bible says that the Word, the Son of God, was with God and was God in the beginning. When He comes again, if I haven't died and gone to heaven already, I believe He will take me to be with Himself and His Father in heaven forever.
Hiddenthings
Member
From this, you cannot conclude the pre-existence of Christ, since Yahweh’s Logos (Word) is understood as His divine expression of reason.
This simply means the body of Christ was prepared as a sacrifice for sin.
No, Romans 1 is super clear and it's interesting you avoided it to go to Matthew 26 which states nothing of Jesus pre-existence!
While he was alive, he was the Son of God (actually the Son of Man if we are being technical) but in the flesh, not yet with Divine Nature (Life), as he had not yet received eternal life. Your own teaching is guiding you toward the truth, yet you seem to be denying it.
No, Jesus was fully flesh who became fully divine having been given Life when he was raised from the dead.
Once again you are not reading the Apostles or Christs own testimony.
Hiddenthings
Member
In your later years you still have more searching of the Scriptures to see if these things be so.
Hiddenthings
Member
That’s an unusual expression, David, since the elect are not destined for Heaven but will remain here on earth. The meek, Christ’s disciples inherit the earth, not Heaven.
How is it that there are so many misunderstandings in your view?
Hiddenthings
Member
@David Lamb
The question which needs answering is this: Did Jesus receive Life from His God and Father?
If you say no, then you are speaking against Christ himself and the apostles.
If you say yes, then you are in agreement with them.
The question which needs answering is this: Did Jesus receive Life from His God and Father?
If you say no, then you are speaking against Christ himself and the apostles.
If you say yes, then you are in agreement with them.
David Lamb
Active Member
Understood by whom? If the Word is God's reason, as you say, then you must believe that God's reason became flesh, that God's reason was God, that God's reason created all things. In John 1, we read all those things about the Word.
Well, I was answering what you claimed, that Jesus Christ became the Son of God after the resurrection. That is why I quoted words of Jesus Himself spoken before the resurrection in which He answers the high priest's question, "Are You the Son of God?" in the affirmative. I didn't avoid Romans 1, but quoting Romans 1 wouldn't answer the point you made about Christ only becoming the Son of God after the resurrection. I imagine you were thinking of this:
“and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.” (Ro 1:4 NKJV)
But that verse doesn't say that He became the Son of God by the resurrection, but that He was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection. Long before the resurrection, even the demons recognised His sonship:
“And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.” (Lu 4:41 NKJV)
Well, Christ's own testimony, long before His resurrection, was that God was His Father, and He was the Son of God. Think of His interaction with Martha, the sister of Lazarus:
“Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. “And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”” (Joh 11:25-27 NKJV)
He didn't reprimand her and say, "You are wrong. I am not the Son of God yet. I will only become the Son of God after my Resurrection."
David Lamb
Active Member
Oh dear! You do seem to have some strange beliefs. Do you belong to an unusual group that teaches these things?
Similar threads
