ewq1938
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- Jul 11, 2015
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Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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Why can't you read with understanding, I know your smart...here I made it big letters. Why are you taken to such extremes like well he didn't live to be 100 yrs old then trash the whole idea.
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham.
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
AND
Hebrews 4 shows because Christ is made in all things like us, Christ is also called the second ADAM...
"in all things He had to be made like His brethren,"
He is therefore fully sympathetic with out miserable conditions. i.e. our weakness. So he can then be our great high priest and make intercessions for us, the people of God, to God the Father. And we are also fully human and people and have all the typical frailties of our human conditions.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
www.biblegateway.com
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Mockers better be careful...
Hebrews 4 shows because Christ is made in all things like us, Christ is also called the second ADAM...
"in all things He had to be made like His brethren,"
He is therefore fully sympathetic with out miserable conditions. i.e. our weakness. So he can then be our great high priest and make intercessions for us, the people of God, to God the Father. And we are also fully human and people and have all the typical frailties of our human conditions.
Our Compassionate High Priest
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 4 - New King James Version
The Promise of Rest - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard...
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Mockers better be careful...
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.
The One who vindicates Me is near. Who will dare to contend with Me? Let us confront each other! Who has a case against Me? Let him approach Me! / Surely the Lord GOD helps Me. Who is there to condemn Me? See, they will all wear out like a garment; the moths will devour them.
Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be afraid, for I am your God. I will strengthen you; I will surely help you; I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. / Behold, all who rage against you will be ashamed and disgraced; those who contend with you will be reduced to nothing and will perish.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be afraid, for I am your God. I will strengthen you; I will surely help you; I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. / Behold, all who rage against you will be ashamed and disgraced; those who contend with you will be reduced to nothing and will perish.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The claim currently under examination posits that Jesus ascended to heaven while his physical body remained entombed. This assertion arises within a broader conversation regarding the fate of individuals after death. Ultimately, the conversation explores Jesus' teaching on the kingdom of God and the expectations of the faithful regarding the afterlife.
Jesus spoke extensively about the Kingdom of God, describing it as both a present spiritual reality and a future promise. He emphasized that it is not a physical place but rather the reign of God over those who follow Him. The Kingdom of God is characterized by righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
I maintain that the spirit and the soul can't exist apart from the physical body.
What you say is very possible.
The Bible teaches that the spirit of a person returns to God upon death. Ecclesiastes 12:7 states, *“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.”* This verse suggests that the spirit does not remain independently active but is entrusted to God.
Additionally, the Bible does not support the idea of an immortal soul that exists apart from God's preservation. Instead, it describes the soul as mortal, emphasizing that eternal life is a gift from God rather than an inherent human trait.
"I maintain that the spirit and the soul can't exist apart from the physical body."
Are you a Jehovah's witness?
That would explain your view here.
How then do you explain this
2 Cor 5
For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our [b]habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
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Here in is shown the existence of body separated person still alive and in heaven
Now to understand this, there is a spiritual body and it is different from the flesh and blood body.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I can see where you're coming from. However, Paul appears to hold the belief that they are indeed distinct from one another. At the same time, he concedes that differentiating between them can be quite challenging.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I stopped reading right here. Not interested in your personal insults. I did not direct any personal insults towards you.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
No. I am not a Jehovah's witness.
I understand that the passage can be interpreted in various ways, but in this particular context, we must take into account our own preconceived notions and beliefs. For instance, when Paul asserts, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord," it's easy for us to draw immediate conclusions. The imagery conjured by these words suggests a stark contrast: Jesus is depicted as residing in the heavens, while we remain grounded on earth. This duality implies that while we exist in our physical bodies, we are somehow separated from the divine presence of the Lord. However, there lies a promise in the notion that one day, when our earthly existence comes to an end, we will transcend this life and enter into an everlasting communion with the Lord in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9 presents a powerful contrast between earthly existence and heavenly hope. Paul uses the metaphor of an earthly tent versus a heavenly building to illustrate the temporary nature of life in the body compared to the eternal dwelling prepared by God.
He expresses a deep longing to be clothed with this heavenly dwelling, emphasizing that while believers live in their physical bodies, they are absent from the Lord but walk by faith, not by sight. The passage highlights the tension between present suffering and future glory, encouraging confidence in God's promise of eternal life.
Paul's comparison points toward the glorified state believers will experience. He contrasts the temporary, frail earthly body (the "tent") with the eternal, imperishable heavenly dwelling God has prepared. His longing to be “clothed” with this new, glorified body reflects the hope of resurrection and transformation into a perfected, incorruptible state.
The expression "at home in the body" captures the essence of our earthly and temporary existence. It likens our physical form to a "tent," a transient structure that houses our spirit during our time on this planet. In this state, we find ourselves separated from the divine presence of the Lord. However, there is a promise that when we are together with the Lord, this fragile "tent" will be removed and replaced by something far greater—a "building" that is indestructible, permanent, and eternal. This ultimate transformation signifies a transition from the fleeting nature of our current lives to a lasting state of being that is secure and everlasting in the presence of the divine.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
These verses say otherwise:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Soul and spirit are joined together, but are not the same thing just as joints and marrow are not the same thing.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In this passage, we gain insight into Paul’s profound expectation regarding life after death. Contrary to the common belief that we ascend to heaven in a disembodied state, like souls appearing "naked" without form, Paul expresses his anticipation of being "clothed" in a glorified body. This imagery suggests a transformation, where rather than being left in a vulnerable state, he envisions himself enveloped in a perfected physical form that reflects the fullness of life in the eternal realm.
Well maybe you are not the person I thought, bye, bye, don't bother responding as I won't see it, you're on ignore.
You prefer your pride over what the scripture says. Oh, and there has been plenty of insults coming from you.
I don't seek out controversies over words like you do, and I know how to stop it,
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the [a]doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 [b]useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. [c]From such withdraw yourself.
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WPM, you got nothing except your personal opinions about where Paradise was 2000 years ago.
Example, after Jesus was resurrected, what did He say to Mary?
More biblical evidence that Paradise may not have been in heaven at that time. Remember, just three days after Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him, He asked Mary Magdalene, who first saw Him in resurrected form, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the My Father.” (John 20:17)
If had not yet ascended to the Father, then Paradise was not located in heaven with God.
Mary Magdalene Sees the Risen Lord
11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to [c]Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the [d]disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.
Bro, listen!!!
There is a difference between your spirit being caught up to paradise and your body. I have showed you this several times but you keep repeating this stuff as if I have not explained that. If you want others to engage, you are going to have to listen to what they say. If not, you will end up creating strawmen and chasing pink elephants.
I will repost what i did previously to demonstrate the evidence:
Genesis 2:8-9: “And the LORD God planted a garden [Gr. paradeisos] eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden [Gr. paradeisos], and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
The Greek word for paradise (paradeisos) is used 27 times in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint). The first thirteen times are in Genesis 2 and 3, all references to the Garden in Eden, of course. Other references in the Old Testament to the Garden in Eden use this same Greek word. But it is also employed to refer to a beautiful royal garden in Scripture. Paradise is an ancient term meaning a royal garden or a hunting-park. It derives its origin back to the Garden of Eden. In both Jewish apocalyptic literature and in the Talmud Paradise is associated with the Garden of Eden (the heavenly prototype).
The Greek New Testament that Christ and the Apostles often used which was written in the 3rd century BC.
Genesis 3:23-24: “Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden [Gr. paradeisos] of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden [Gr. paradeisos] of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3 reveals Paradise lost! When man fell in the Garden his relationship with God was broke. He lost that perfect communion with God and consequently surrendered his favored position before God. Man in the form of Adam disobeyed the divine warning (Genesis 3:6) and brought judgement upon himself and all creation.
The angelic “flaming sword” was placed at the border of the Garden of Eden to prevent man from returning to paradise. Man was not qualified or worthy to return there.
Paradise, the perfection, the tree of life and the flaming sword, were now all transferred to heaven. Earth was left to fallen man and Satan.
Throughout the whole of the old covenant, God’s people, dead or alive, had no automatic access to heaven because of sin. When believers died, they went straight to Abraham’s bosom in Hades. This was a waiting place for believers anticipating being rescued by the Messiah.
Because of sin, man was banished from Paradise. That would remain the case until sin was finally and fully paid for. This was Paradise lost!
Do not miss the allusions to the tree of life.
Man was not allowed to go into the presence of God – only under certain circumstances.
The priest once a year on the day of atonement.
Paradise was lost right up until the cross.
In the New Testament Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem.
When Jesus prophesied to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [Gr. paradeisos]”
He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.
It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise [Gr. paradeisos], and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”
Paradise = the third heaven.
If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise [Gr. paradeisos] of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.
In Revelation 21:2 we learn: “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.
Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
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That is where Paradise is today in Heaven.
The scriptures your posting say nothing about where Paradise was before. You are making a big assumption.
If you notice we have evidence Paradise moves around as after Paul talks about a man caught up into Paradise, we see it descending from God out of heaven onto the new earth.
Of course, you rejected that Paradise (Eden, garden of God) in the OT was found In the depth of the earth...
Talk about cherry picking scriptures which people accuse me of too, why not study the whole subject.
If you keep acting in the prideful way you are, no one is going to waste time communicating with you. You will be talking to yourself. You seem to do a lot of that anyway. Trust me!
You seem full of yourself. Get off your high horse before you fall off.
Really?
So paradise was in the Garden of Eden at one stage? Where did it go from there? When did it arrive in heaven?
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