WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[JohnDB]

And that is the whole point and emphasis of the Truth that JESUS spoke in John 3:1-10

Therefore, any attempt to add to this passage which has clearly been defined by the Lord in the passage, will result in a 'understanding' that is not given in this passage and becomes contrary to the Truth.

YES....
Bit that in no way means that we are to isolate this story to stand alone away from Anthropology, History, place, themes, time, date of writing and etc.

Hermeneutics is a BLEND of arts and SCIENCES to determine the full context of what was written and why it was written.

Different Hermeneutics are used in different types of Biblical literature. There was an author trying to convey thoughts to an intended audience but on an extremely efficient basis. (Paper and ink were expensive....over a weeks wages for most books in scripture not including the content).

 

[David in NJ]

YES....
Bit that in no way means that we are to isolate this story to stand alone away from Anthropology, History, place, themes, time, date of writing and etc.

Hermeneutics is a BLEND of arts and SCIENCES to determine the full context of what was written and why it was written.

Different Hermeneutics are used in different types of Biblical literature. There was an author trying to convey thoughts to an intended audience but on an extremely efficient basis. (Paper and ink were expensive....over a weeks wages for most books in scripture not including the content).

The Author of Scripture implemented the Way of Truth thru basic 'child-like' understanding:

simple things like 'a' is before 'b'
color identifications such as 'red' for the color of blood and 'light/white' for purity and 'black' for darkness
physical attributes like 'water' is 'wet' and covers most of the earth is absolutely necessary for 'life' = oops = maybe that's IT
or is that too simple for intellectual capacity transistors???

These 'simple' things of God are within and even govern the hermeneutical approach to ascertaining grade school level grammar.

Hermeneutical association with scripture when applied under the constraint of Scripture will not lead away from the relevant topic in
a given passage/verse/lesson but will find it's place thru pre-determined authorization that was given by the Holy Spirit = in Scripture.

"Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

You may want to ask and find : What is the pre-determined authorization of the Holy Spirit

SHALOM my Brother in Christ

 

[JohnDB]

physical attributes like 'water' is 'wet' and covers most of the earth is absolutely necessary for 'life'

In the Old Testament the dichotomy difference between lawlessness and law was stark and observable. The same as watered land (where laws existed) and desert (where no laws existed)

Laws equaled life.
Lawlessness equaled death.
Which is how the symbolism of water equating to Law came about. The people of the Ancient Near East were very comfortable with the outdoor observable land around them.

Which led to the "mazot" on the doorposts of Jewish homes. (Little scroll with the ten commandments) It was a statement that "this house was ruled by these Laws"



Which leads to a discussion about various law sets. The Gentile laws often led to complete evaporation of a culture (no Assyrians, Philistines, Anakanites, Perezites, Cushites, Babylonians, or Medes today) However Jewish culture remains intact today. Their Law has preserved them as a people For thousands of years. No denying it. No other culture or people group in the world can make such a claim. There are no Romans in Rome...nobody claims that they are Roman Citizens where once people were very proud to have Roman Citizenship.

 

[David in NJ]

In the Old Testament the dichotomy difference between lawlessness and law was stark and observable. The same as watered land (where laws existed) and desert (where no laws existed)

Laws equaled life.
Lawlessness equaled death.
Which is how the symbolism of water equating to Law came about. The people of the Ancient Near East were very comfortable with the outdoor observable land around them.

Which led to the "mazot" on the doorposts of Jewish homes. (Little scroll with the ten commandments) It was a statement that "this house was ruled by these Laws"



Which leads to a discussion about various law sets. The Gentile laws often led to complete evaporation of a culture (no Assyrians, Philistines, Anakanites, Perezites, Cushites, Babylonians, or Medes today) However Jewish culture remains intact today. Their Law has preserved them as a people For thousands of years. No denying it. No other culture or people group in the world can make such a claim. There are no Romans in Rome...nobody claims that they are Roman Citizens where once people were very proud to have Roman Citizenship.

Why the diversion???

OK, let's run with it = Daniel ch2

the world governments, as spoken of in Daniel, are still in existence today and continue to influence and govern mankind

The king responded to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, “Are you able to tell me what I saw in the dream, as well as its interpretation?”

27Daniel answered the king, “No wise man, enchanter, medium, or magician can explain to the king the mystery of which he inquires. 28But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days. Your dream and the visions that came into your mind as you lay on your bed were these:

29As you lay on your bed, O king, your thoughts turned to the future, and the Revealer of Mysteries made known to you what will happen. 30And to me this mystery has been revealed, not because I have more wisdom than any man alive, but in order that the interpretation might be made known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.

31As you, O king, were watching, a great statuec appeared. A great and dazzling statue stood before you, and its form was awesome. 32The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, 33its legs were iron, and its feet were part iron and part clay.

34As you watched, a stone was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.

37You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given sovereignty, power, strength, and glory. 38Wherever the sons of men or beasts of the field or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others. 41And just as you saw that the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom, yet some of the strength of iron will be in it—just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

44In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. 45And just as you saw a stone being cut out of the mountain without human hands, and it shattered the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold, so the great God has told the king what will happen in the future.

 

[JohnDB]

Why the diversion???

OK, let's run with it = Daniel ch2

the world governments, as spoken of in Daniel, are still in existence today and continue to influence and govern mankind

The king responded to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, “Are you able to tell me what I saw in the dream, as well as its interpretation?”

27Daniel answered the king, “No wise man, enchanter, medium, or magician can explain to the king the mystery of which he inquires. 28But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days. Your dream and the visions that came into your mind as you lay on your bed were these:

29As you lay on your bed, O king, your thoughts turned to the future, and the Revealer of Mysteries made known to you what will happen. 30And to me this mystery has been revealed, not because I have more wisdom than any man alive, but in order that the interpretation might be made known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.

31As you, O king, were watching, a great statuec appeared. A great and dazzling statue stood before you, and its form was awesome. 32The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, 33its legs were iron, and its feet were part iron and part clay.

34As you watched, a stone was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.

37You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given sovereignty, power, strength, and glory. 38Wherever the sons of men or beasts of the field or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others. 41And just as you saw that the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom, yet some of the strength of iron will be in it—just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

44In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. 45And just as you saw a stone being cut out of the mountain without human hands, and it shattered the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold, so the great God has told the king what will happen in the future.

Not a diversion...it's a going back to the OP and point of this thread. Eschatology is a different discussion and topic.

Such as water coming from the "rock not cut by human hands". Striking the rock vx speaking to the rock to get water from it.

Pretty strong allusions as to how the symbolism of water equating to Law came about.

Otherwise the story of Moses striking the rock vx speaking to the rock was a pointless exercise with which Moses was denied entrance into the Promised Land.

EVERY word is precious....EVERY story has meaning.

 

[David in NJ]

Not a diversion...it's a going back to the OP and point of this thread. Eschatology is a different discussion and topic.

Such as water coming from the "rock not cut by human hands". Striking the rock vx speaking to the rock to get water from it.

Pretty strong allusions as to how the symbolism of water equating to Law came about.

Otherwise the story of Moses striking the rock vx speaking to the rock was a pointless exercise with which Moses was denied entrance into the Promised Land.

EVERY word is precious....EVERY story has meaning.

Were the two encounters with the 'rock/water' about the Law???

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@GodsGrace is correct in quoting the words of Christ = "few there be that find it"

JESUS compares the trillions of souls being born into this world but only "few" will receive Salvation
JESUS spoke the parable of the sower to explain this

I get “few there be that find it” is accurately quoted as what Jesus said. What I’m not certain of is how men interpret it. Is it good there’s only a few that find it?

Secondly JESUS also refers back to Noah and repeats the SAME message = "few"

Yes, same as in the days of Noah. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
few in the ark of Noah
Few in Christ too??

 

[Jesus Wept]

Unless one is born, he cannot be reborn.
It would seem obvious to me that natural birth is what's being referenced here.

 

[David in NJ]

Not a diversion...it's a going back to the OP and point of this thread. Eschatology is a different discussion and topic.

Such as water coming from the "rock not cut by human hands". Striking the rock vx speaking to the rock to get water from it.

Pretty strong allusions as to how the symbolism of water equating to Law came about.

Otherwise the story of Moses striking the rock vx speaking to the rock was a pointless exercise with which Moses was denied entrance into the Promised Land.

EVERY word is precious....EVERY story has meaning.

Good late Morning

the 'Rock' in the wilderness speaks of Christ

no law in it other then.....................fill in here

 

[JohnDB]

Good late Morning

the 'Rock' in the wilderness speaks of Christ

no law in it other then.....................fill in here

The Law was the water....
Only God gives good laws. Sweet water.

Until the water becomes wine.

 

[David in NJ]

The Law was the water....
Only God gives good laws. Sweet water.

Until the water becomes wine.

Scripture would not agree with the Law being the Rock= 1 Cor 10:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food,and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

@JohnDB

i made a grammatical error in post 271 and it has now been UPdated

Please review - thank you

 

[GodsGrace]

I get “few there be that find it” is accurately quoted as what Jesus said. What I’m not certain of is how men interpret it. Is it good there’s only a few that find it?




Yes, same as in the days of Noah. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
few in the ark of Noah
Few in Christ too??

It's not good that there are only a few.
But, look around you, do most believe God exists?
Do they worship Him if they do?

Jesus knew what He was talking about.
Do you see many??

 

[JohnDB]

@JohnDB

i made a grammatical error in post 271 and it has now been UPdated

Please review - thank you

I saw and read into it what you intended the first time....because it's more in line with what I've heard you say before.

 

[JohnDB]

Let's review some basic facts about the scene that this passage describes.

Nicodemus is a member of the Sanhedrin.
Meaning he was a learned/scholar man AND a leader who represented his city. His education level was higher than most Jews. But he also represented real people. He had to speak with all of them on a regular basis. He had seen and heard many Rabbi teaching before. (Jesus, in the role of a schmeekhah Rabbi, the highest order of Rabbi) would be bringing new understanding of the Law/Torah to the people. But not only that....Jesus was performing miracles that only a Messenger from God could. (Deaf-mute speaking and praising God, blind seeing, lame walking, and crippled healed)

To Nicodemus, he hoped that Jesus was the Messiah. He definitely wanted to be friends with Jesus on the basis of the miracles alone. The points of theology? they could work something out by being friends and understanding each other more clearly. Which is why Nicodemus was there after Dark....because that is socializing time in Israel. Work is for daylight and socializing is for night.

Jesus was asleep from exhaustion again. Praying all night then speaking, teaching, and preaching all day in the summer heat....only can do so many days before you are toast.

 

[JohnDB]

Also, not every single word of their conversation was recorded. ONLY the pertinent details that reflected the essence of their conversation. No extra "chatter" to the point that what is recorded might not be said as succinctly as recorded. This isn't a play written out...not a modern book for episodic reading. This is a recount of what happened and why written in as efficiently a manner as possible.

Meaning, John is not going to go into detail explaining what "Born From Above" means...or how it's related to the Bene Elohim (Sons of God) which is another theme running rampant throughout John's Gospel account. John has a LOT to explain and cover in a very short amount of paper and ink. Where today we have people writing whole Encyclopedia sized theology books covering the topics John explains in a dozen sentences.

 

[David in NJ]

I saw and read into it what you intended the first time....because it's more in line with what I've heard you say before.

thank you Brother and that really makes me feel at home with you

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's not good that there are only a few.
But, look around you, do most believe God exists?
Do they worship Him if they do?

Jesus knew what He was talking about.
Do you see many??

Do I see many? No. Not if I judge by sight. when the Corinthians were calling Paul and those brothers with Paul reprobates and as those who fail…Paul spoke of whom he trusted that they will know and see they are not as those who fail. Paul spoke of as being poor yet making many rich. When Jesus went to the cross while we were yet enemies and dead in our sins…it was for what was to come after. If He judged by sight then He would have only seen enemies and those dead in their sins.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's not good that there are only a few.

agree. That is all I’m suggesting is that i don’t think Jesus was praising there is only a few that find it. If it’s not a good thing that only a few find it …I wonder why few find it? We sing songs of “this little light of mine, I’m going to let it shine.”

Someone mentioned the parable of the sower and the seed. There is that which is withered from lack of water. The word speaks of those who plant and those who water. 1 Corinthians 3:7-9 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. [8] He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. [9] For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

Since God gives the increase…yet there is only a few which are given increase…yet that there are only a few is not good…then what is preventing that there be only a few, and NOT many made rich towards God? Greed? Envy? lust?
Jesus healed the hand which was withered —-saying stretch out your hand—Jesus making it whole like the other. Who got angry that Jesus healed the man whose hand had withered? The religious leaders. It was always the religious leaders mad, like when he rescued one fallen into a pit. It wasn’t the ones who didn’t know God, but those who claimed to be experts on God who got angry that the withered was restored whole like the other hand, or the one fallen into a pit was lifted out of the pit.

The sower and the seed speaks of the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy …fowls come along and devour (eat up) and steal the seed planted in hearts. When God instructs to steal no more, what is He saying to stop stealing from your neighbor? You already mentioned the focus should not be on possessions but the more important and needed reconciliation unto God.
Paul spoke of a brother whom was weak and without the knowledge that he (Paul) has, saying if he harmed his brother, then he (Paul) sinned against Christ.

Point is, if God doesn’t desire only a few find it….
Who is it that desires a few find it?
I personally think it’s those who keep asserting there is few that find it. Yet They say they have found it.

You mentioned to look at the obvious….asking do I see many? Another obvious I see when I look is every single day you’ll have men telling you how wrong everyone is and how right they are. I’ve been told and laughed at before that I’m not able to eat the meat. How I need to be fed the milk. This that Paul spoke is used to flaunt self as one ready for the meat. It is used to push others down as in need of the milk. It’s only recently I’ve noticed the milk Paul fed those still yet carnal was “the pure milk” by which one grows. 1 Peter 2:2-3 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation- [3] if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
An obvious to me is if I have tasted the Lord is good, fed pure milk by it I may grow as a newborn infant…why do men desire to kill the newborn infant by their mocking and critiquing and leveraging how they eat the meat. See, I don’t trust a thing men say or push back with a spirit of superiority. Should they not know the pure milk, to taste of the Lord and see that He is good, is not something for them to Lord over people?

 

[GodsGrace]

Do I see many? No. Not if I judge by sight. when the Corinthians were calling Paul and those brothers with Paul reprobates and as those who fail…Paul spoke of whom he trusted that they will know and see they are not as those who fail. Paul spoke of as being poor yet making many rich. When Jesus went to the cross while we were yet enemies and dead in our sins…it was for what was to come after. If He judged by sight then He would have only seen enemies and those dead in their sins.

Oh, well, I think we could agree on that.
We can't see the heart of a man and we certainly cannot judge another's soul.
I do think, however, that if we know a person is an atheist we can be pretty sure that they are not living for God.
I do see, for instance, when we go to an affair/ceremony and there are man present...the majority of those present certainly do not seem to be God seekers or followers. I say SEEM because we cannot ever be sure...but there sure are clues!