The "watch rapture view"

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are the seven vials of God's wrath in Revelation poured out before or after the day Jesus returns in Revelation 19 ?

I believe the seventh vial is poured out the day Jesus returns and it is parallel to the seventh seal and seventh trumpet. Notice how the seventh trumpet signals the time when God "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18). Jesus will destroy the earth on the day He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12).

I believe the 7 seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other. I have told you this before multiple times. You never remember anything I tell you, which makes me wonder if you pay much attention at all to what I actually say or if you might have some kind of memory problem.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the seventh vial is poured out the day Jesus returns and it is parallel to the seventh seal and seventh trumpet. Notice how the seventh trumpet signals the time when God "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18). Jesus will destroy the earth on the day He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12).

I believe the 7 seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other. I have told you this before multiple times. You never remember anything I tell you, which makes me wonder if you pay much attention at all to what I actually say or if you might have some kind of memory problem.

So, in your view the other six vials of God's wrath are poured out before the day that Jesus returns.

Therefore, verse 10 of 1Thessalonians5:9-11 must be before then. Meaning the resurrection/rapture of verse 10 must be before the six other vials of God's wrath are poured out. Thus, your post-trib timing view of the resurrection/rapture is incorrect.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, in your view the other six vials of God's wrath are poured out before the day that Jesus returns.

Yes. But, I don't take the descriptions of them all literally the way you do, either. So, you have all of them being poured out on the day He returns? Do you think they will all be poured out in rapid succession?

Therefore, verse 10 of 1Thessalonians5:9-11 must be before then.

Before the other six vials? Why?

Meaning the resurrection/rapture of verse 10 must be before the six other vials of God's wrath are poured out.

That is what you are saying, but why are you saying that? The vials are poured out only on unbelievers, not believers. Do you think that God is not capable of taking out His wrath at all on unbelievers without it affecting believers?

Only on the day Jesus returns will His wrath come upon literally the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12), so not until that day will we be taken off of the earth. The seventh vial corresponds with that day. What is hard to understand about this?

Thus, your post-trib timing view of the resurrection/rapture is incorrect.

LOL. You make an extremely weak argument and then claim that my view is incorrect. What is wrong with you, Douggg? What makes it so that you can make such a weak, vague argument and then declare victory in the debate? Try harder, Douggg.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul is referring to the wrath that will come on the day Jesus returns there (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12). We will not experience that because we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air on that day instead.

 

[Davy]

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Have you not read:

Zech 14:1-2
14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
KJV

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
KJV

So you think the above already happened in 70 A.D., huh??

Thanks for proving to us how deceived you are about those future events linked to Luke 21 and God's days of vengeance. Even that Zeph.3:8 verse reveals those events are for the very last... day of this world with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth on that "day of the Lord", per Peter in 2 Peter 3:10.

 

[Davy]

So, in your view the other six vials of God's wrath are poured out before the day that Jesus returns.

Not 'my'... view but that is The Bible View.

Or didn't you read the events of the 6th Vial?

Rev 16:12-14
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

That 6th Vial period is when Satan and his host are gathered in prep for the final battle. Surely you realize the idea of 'preparation' is NOT the actual time of battle? What battle is that being prepared for there? The one that will be mentioned that happens later ON THE 7TH VIAL,

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The above events are still 6th VIAL timing.

That battle, the final one for this present world on the last day that happens on the "day of the Lord", is getting ready to happen at this point of the 6th VIAL. That is why Jesus said, "Behold, I come as a thief". It's a reference to what Apostle Paul and Peter taught that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Jesus was first to teach that thief idea in His Olivet discourse (in Matthew 24 and Mark 13).

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV

Then that final 7th VIAL happens, which is the timing of that battle on the "day of the Lord" which is the day of Lord Jesus' future return. Per many other Bible Scriptures, we know that is the day when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, ending the works of this present world, and it will be when Satan is locked in his pit prison and the resurrection and gathering to Christ happens. This is a no brainer.

But you... instead, sound like you are just following sequential numbers theology, and not actually paying attention to those events written in simplicity. It's like you say to yourself, "OK, the 7 Vials all happen during the great tribulation, and we aren't here for that, etc., etc., ....". That does not work; stay with the written Bible Scripture and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Douggg]

Yes. But, I don't take the descriptions of them all literally the way you do, either. So, you have all of them being poured out on the day He returns? Do you think they will all be poured out in rapid succession?

No, the seven vials of God's wrath will be poured out over an approximate 600 days period before Jesus returns.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you just not believe in anything physical? Is there no such thing as physical wrath in your mind? I have to wonder if you believe that the flood in Noah's day was an actual physical flood of physical water that went over the entire physical earth. Do you believe that or not? It would not surprise me if you didn't. I wonder whether or not you believe that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by physical fire? It would not surprise me if you did not even believe that. I think you need to join us in physical reality where physical things actually happen instead of thinking everything is spiritual.

Not surprised—from someone who lacks spiritual discernment.

Let me be clear: I never denied the literal, physical flood of H₂O, the physical ark, or the literal animals during Noah’s day. Of course, those things happened! But your reaction shows just how superficial and carnal your thinking is. You see only what's on the surface and miss the deeper meaning God intended for the spiritually discerning.

Yes, the flood was real—but it also carries powerful spiritual significance, which you seem blind to.

​

The Flood: A Sign of Judgment​

The flood represents God’s righteous judgment on sin. It wasn’t just a natural disaster—it was a divine act pointing forward to a greater truth.

The Ark: A Shadow of Christ​

A massive boat, built by Noah according to God’s exact instructions and measurements, was meant to save his family and the animals. But spiritually, it symbolizes much more:

1. The ark represents the body of Christ—a refuge for all who trust in Him (Hebrews 11:7).
2. Being in the ark represents being “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:17), saved from the wrath to come (Romans 5:9).
3. The ark was covered inside and out with pitch (Genesis 6:14). The Hebrew word for pitch is kaphar, which also means atonement—a powerful picture of the covering of sin through Christ’s blood.
4. God told Noah to build one door into the ark (Genesis 6:16). Why just one? Because there is only one way to be saved: through Jesus (John 10:9). There are not many doors—only one. Salvation is exclusive, not open-ended (Acts 4:12).
5. Once God shut the door Himself (Genesis 7:16), no one else could enter. That symbolizes that grace has a limit—and once the door of mercy closes, judgment follows. Just like in the parable of the foolish virgins in Matthew 25. Selah!

Male and Female Animals: A Spiritual Pattern​

Yes, God brought male and female of every kind into the ark to preserve life (Genesis 6:19–20; 7:2–3). But that too carries deeper meaning:

1. The pairs represent more than just reproduction—they are also a symbol of spiritual witness and agreement. As Scripture says, “By the testimony of two or three witnesses...” (Matthew 18:16).
2. It also foreshadows how Christ sent out His followers two by two to preach the gospel (Mark 6:7; Luke 10:1). These WILD animals foreshadow Gentile believers, preserved to spread God's Word to the nations.

Raven and Dove: Flesh vs. Spirit​

1. The raven, which never returned (Genesis 8:7), symbolizes the flesh—unclean, restless, and without peace.
2. The dove, which returned with an olive leaf (Genesis 8:11), represents peace, purity, and the Holy Spirit—God’s presence bringing hope after judgment.

The point is...Don’t Stop at the Surface​

So no, it’s not just about the physical events. There’s far more to God's plan than meets the eye. Just like the ten plagues in Egypt had spiritual significance, or the floating axe head and the stick thrown by Elisha (2 Kings 6:6)—these are not just strange miracles, but spiritual messages meant for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Same thing with the spirit of Satan as the spirit of man, the stones of the temple building as people of the congregation, etc.

Stop thinking so carnally. Open your spirit. There is a deeper meaning behind the literal, and God intends for His people to discern it. Selah!

 

[Douggg]

Have you not read:

Zech 14:1-2
14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
KJV

Davy, in Zechariah 14, Jerusalem is not made desolate, unlike Luke 21:20-23. Zechariah 14 is end times. Differently, Luke 21:20-23 was 70ad.

Jesus in verse 4 stands on the Mt. of Olives, His return.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the seven vials of God's wrath will be poured out over an approximate 600 days period before Jesus returns.

I wonder how that could be the case when it's said to be the time when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of God the Father and the Son and that it's then time to destroy those who destroy the earth and time to judge the dead and reward believers at the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-18)? If you read the description of the seventh trumpet, it definitely does not give the impression that there could possibly be 600 more days after that until Jesus returns. Not at all. You are not recognizing the parallels in the book of Revelation. Your chronological method of interpreting the book makes complete nonsense out of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not surprised—from someone who lacks spiritual discernment.

Let me be clear: I never denied the literal, physical flood of H₂O, the physical ark, or the literal animals during Noah’s day. Of course, those things happened! But your reaction shows just how superficial and carnal your thinking is. You see only what's on the surface and miss the deeper meaning God intended for the spiritually discerning.

Yes, the flood was real—but it also carries powerful spiritual significance, which you seem blind to.

​

The Flood: A Sign of Judgment​

The flood represents God’s righteous judgment on sin. It wasn’t just a natural disaster—it was a divine act pointing forward to a greater truth.

The Ark: A Shadow of Christ​

A massive boat, built by Noah according to God’s exact instructions and measurements, was meant to save his family and the animals. But spiritually, it symbolizes much more:

1. The ark represents the body of Christ—a refuge for all who trust in Him (Hebrews 11:7).
2. Being in the ark represents being “in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:17), saved from the wrath to come (Romans 5:9).
3. The ark was covered inside and out with pitch (Genesis 6:14). The Hebrew word for pitch is kaphar, which also means atonement—a powerful picture of the covering of sin through Christ’s blood.
4. God told Noah to build one door into the ark (Genesis 6:16). Why just one? Because there is only one way to be saved: through Jesus (John 10:9). There are not many doors—only one. Salvation is exclusive, not open-ended (Acts 4:12).
5. Once God shut the door Himself (Genesis 7:16), no one else could enter. That symbolizes that grace has a limit—and once the door of mercy closes, judgment follows. Just like in the parable of the foolish virgins in Matthew 25. Selah!

Male and Female Animals: A Spiritual Pattern​

Yes, God brought male and female of every kind into the ark to preserve life (Genesis 6:19–20; 7:2–3). But that too carries deeper meaning:

1. The pairs represent more than just reproduction—they are also a symbol of spiritual witness and agreement. As Scripture says, “By the testimony of two or three witnesses...” (Matthew 18:16).
2. It also foreshadows how Christ sent out His followers two by two to preach the gospel (Mark 6:7; Luke 10:1). These WILD animals foreshadow Gentile believers, preserved to spread God's Word to the nations.

Raven and Dove: Flesh vs. Spirit​

1. The raven, which never returned (Genesis 8:7), symbolizes the flesh—unclean, restless, and without peace.
2. The dove, which returned with an olive leaf (Genesis 8:11), represents peace, purity, and the Holy Spirit—God’s presence bringing hope after judgment.

The point is...Don’t Stop at the Surface​

So no, it’s not just about the physical events. There’s far more to God's plan than meets the eye. Just like the ten plagues in Egypt had spiritual significance, or the floating axe head and the stick thrown by Elisha (2 Kings 6:6)—these are not just strange miracles, but spiritual messages meant for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Same thing with the spirit of Satan as the spirit of man, the stones of the temple building as people of the congregation, etc.

Stop thinking so carnally. Open your spirit. There is a deeper meaning behind the literal, and God intends for His people to discern it. Selah!

LOL. I have nothing to learn from you. Absolutely nothing. I know the spiritual significance of those events. You don't need to tell me that. But, the problem is you don't know the spiritual significance of the literal, physical event that happened in 70 AD. God showed that He will punish anyone, even the ones who were supposed to be His chosen people, the Jews, if they rebel against Him. What happened to them should serve as a warning to anyone what will happen if they refuse to repent and accept Christ. Jesus will take vengeance on all those who refused to repent and accept Him when He comes again, including those who claim to believe in Him but are not willing to submit to Him and serve Him. What happened in 70 AD should serve as proof of what will happen to those who rebel against God, including even those who people think are supposed to be His people.

You equate spiritual discernment with spiritualizing as much scripture as possible. You show your lack of spiritual discernment by not even knowing what spiritual discernment is. To think carnally means you can't discern the difference between literal and figurative text and between text that is about physical and spiritual things. That describes you. You're basically the opposite of dispensationalists who take almost everything literally. There's no balance in the way people like you and people like them interpret scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. I have nothing to learn from you. Absolutely nothing.

True, learned nothing because you do not have spiritual ears.

I know the spiritual significance of those events. You don't need to tell me that.

Really? You wrote, "I have to wonder if you believe that the flood in Noah's day was an actual physical flood of physical water that went over the entire physical earth. Do you believe that or not? It would not surprise me if you didn't."


And yet, you never explained the spiritual significance of it—just assumed I don’t believe the physical event ever happened? LOL!

And the rest of your post is boring and repetitive—hardly worth my time to respond to again.

 

[covenantee]

Wrong people. Wrong Judea. Wrong Church. Wrong time. Olivet Discourse has NOTHING to do with "Judaean CHurch" or "70AD."

But believe whatever you like. The Lord judges, and I am comfortable with it.

If, as you claim, Matthew 24 conveys exclusively spiritual truth, then why did the specific literal events of Matthew 24 occur at all? The vast majority of the parables and other examples that Jesus used in His teaching depicted scenarios and situations that did not specifically literally occur. Jesus could have used the same form(s) of teaching for Matthew 24, and the specific literal events of Matthew 24 need never have occurred.

But He didn't. Specific literal events which He prophesied did occur specifically and literally in 70 AD and the period leading up to it e.g. the flight of the Judaean Church. They weren't parables.

Your claim of spiritual exclusivity is a delusion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

True, learned nothing because you do not have spiritual ears.

Says the guy without spiritual ears who can't even discern that Satan is a real spirit being. He sure has you fooled about his existence and some other things.

Really? You wrote, "I have to wonder if you believe that the flood in Noah's day was an actual physical flood of physical water that went over the entire physical earth. Do you believe that or not? It would not surprise me if you didn't."

And yet, you never explained the spiritual significance of it—just assumed I don’t believe the physical event ever happened? LOL!

As if explaining that is even necessary. It's obvious. It shows what happens when people refuse to repent of their sins and put their faith in God. When Jesus returns, God will once again destroy all unbelievers like He did in Noah's day, as Jesus and Peter both taught (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:6-7,10-12). I didn't say I assume you don't believe the physical event of the flood ever happened. There's your poor reading comprehension at work again. I said it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't believe that, but I didn't say whether you did or not.

And the rest of your post is boring and repetitive—hardly worth my time to respond to again.

LOL. Your hyperspiritualized mumbo jumbo is the most boring and repetitive nonsense imaginable, so you don't really have room to talk.

 

[Taken]

… judgment—specifically the wrath of the Lamb—and it's aimed right at His unfaithful church,

No such thing as”His Unfaithful Church”.

His Church is EXPRESSLY “set apart, (Sanctified, Justified, Are the Confessed Faithful, Forgiven, Saved, Quickened, IN Christ and Christ IN them.)

Glory to God,
Taken

Glory to God

 

[TribulationSigns]

If, as you claim, Matthew 24 conveys exclusively spiritual truth, then why did the specific literal events of Matthew 24 occur at all?

Well, therein lies our problem. You seem to be under the misconception that the word of God exists in a vacuum. The truth is, the Word of God isn't insular, where we can just look at a passage and by its context take it at face value. If that was the case, John the Baptist would have been a highway worker making crooked roads straight. That's an unsound hermeneutic or system of interpretation. But in understanding that no passage is insular, or that it does not stand by itself, we search out all other passages relevant to this, and it is only then that we find out that the prophecy spoke of John bringing correction, and was not about him working on "physical" highways. John coming in the Spirit and power of Elijah, not Elijah actually being reincarnated as Elijah. The bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. You ask, why not use the wording God uses. Well, I did! Look at woman that give sucks in Matthew 24 for example. The woman that gives suck is Jerusalem! A congregation! Not some frightened pregnant women in Judea to escape with her children! That wording leads us to know that she is the woman that God says is the holy city. ...If we will RECEIVE it! It's not like I just drew that conclusion out of thin air as you and @Spiritual Israelite think! It comes from a sound, circumspect exegesis.

Isaiah 66:10-13

• "Rejoice ye with JERUSALEM, and be glad with her, all ye that Love her: Rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
• That YE may Suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; and ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
• For thus saith the Lord, behold, I will extend PEACE to her like a River, and the Glory of the gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall Ye Suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dangled upon her knees.
• As one whom His mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem."

Who said Jerusalem was the woman? God or I?

Specific literal events which He prophesied did occur specifically and literally in 70 AD and the period leading up to it e.g. the flight of the Judaean Church. They weren't parables.

That is what you "think" based on SPECULATIONS based on history instead of Biblical history.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Says the guy without spiritual ears who can't even discern that Satan is a real spirit being. He sure has you fooled about his existence and some other things.

See, you are still obsessed with Satan, whom you don't fully understand without listening to the discussion on Judea.

Obviously, you do not know, cannot understand, will not believe, and are spiritually blind to what God has not revealed to you. Enough said.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No such thing as”His Unfaithful Church”.

His Church is EXPRESSLY “set apart, (Sanctified, Justified, Are the Confessed Faithful, Forgiven, Saved, Quickened, IN Christ and Christ IN them.)

Glory to God,
Taken

Glory to God

Dumb! The church is a covenant relationship with God. She has two groups of people within her. A church within a church. "Many are called" (1), "Few are chosen. (2.)"

There are many (the majority) in the church who are professed believers. They are the corporate church. They are the "unfaithful church". The remainder is the chosen Elect - the true church. They are together in a holy city, like the wheat and taries, until the very end! The unfaithful ones will be cast out.

Selah!

 

[Douggg]

I wonder how that could be the case when it's said to be the time when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of God the Father and the Son and that it's then time to destroy those who destroy the earth and time to judge the dead and reward believers at the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-18)? If you read the description of the seventh trumpet, it definitely does not give the impression that there could possibly be 600 more days after that until Jesus returns. Not at all. You are not recognizing the parallels in the book of Revelation. Your chronological method of interpreting the book makes complete nonsense out of it.

The two witnesses leave this earth on day 1263.5. An earthquake takes place. And then the seventh trumpet sounds.

The seventh trumpet sounding...

1. announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 8:13 - Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing he has but a short time left. A time/times/half time. Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 12:14.

2. announces the days when the mystery of God will be fulfilled. Revelation 10:7

3. brings rejoicing to those in heaven, knowing that Satan's power over the nations is being ended (the mystery of God). The bema judgement seat of Christ in heaven begins, rewards given to the saints. While on earth, the 7 vials of God's wrath are being poured out on earth (for approximately 600 days). Revelation 11:15-18.

 

[covenantee]

Well, therein lies our problem. You seem to be under the misconception that the word of God exists in a vacuum.

Not our. Your. Jesus filled every vacuum with His descriptions of specific literal events in His Olivet Discourse.

That is what you "think" based on SPECULATIONS based on history instead of Biblical history.

Are you now claiming that the literal destruction of Jerusalem and flight of the Judaean Church are speculations?

 

[covenantee]

Dumb! The church is a covenant relationship with God. She has two groups of people within her. A church within a church. "Many are called" (1), "Few are chosen. (2.)"

There are many (the majority) in the church who are professed believers. They are the corporate church. They are the "unfaithful church". The remainder is the chosen Elect - the true church. They are together in a holy city, like the wheat and taries, until the very end! The unfaithful ones will be cast out.

Selah!

Dumbest.

Nowhere in Scripture are those who have forsaken the truth described as a church or as members of a church.