The "watch rapture view"

[Spiritual Israelite]

So using that logic (in blue), you believe that the rapture will happen before God's wrath is poured out in the 7 vials of God's wrath during the great tribulation ?

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

So you are heeding God's word and are watching for the possibility of the rapture at any time and being ready ?

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

the "watch rapture view".

Douggg, do you forget everything I ever tell you? I have told you multiple times that I believe the wrath Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 was the wrath he described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

This is describing the wrath of Christ that will come down on all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns. Peter wrote about this same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12 where he said that the destruction will be by way of fire on the entire earth.

Paul also wrote about that day here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that the day of the rapture will be "when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" which will be the same day "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.".

Douggg, it's foolish to think that there would be any reason for us to need to be taken off of the earth until the day that Jesus destroys the earth with fire. God is perfectly capable of protecting us while we're on the earth until that day Jesus returns.

The "watch rapture view" needs to include watching that you are in the spiritual light instead of spiritual darkness so that you are not among those who will be destroyed suddenly when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus only told the disciples that the temple buildings would be destroyed once before the Olivet Discourse, by the way.

You're making a shallow assumption by claiming that Jesus was merely referring to the physical stones of the temple buildings in Matthew 24:1–2, as if that were the central focus of His prophetic warning. But that interpretation misses the deeper spiritual truth He was declaring. When Jesus said, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down,” He wasn’t simply speaking about Herod’s temple or even the destruction of the city itself — He was symbolically referring to the people of the Old Testament congregation. They were the "stones" being cast down, representing the fall of a covenantal system that had rejected its Messiah.

Of course, the disciples, still operating with an Old Covenant mindset and without the full enlightenment of the Holy Spirit (which came at Pentecost), misunderstood Him and assumed He meant the literal temple structure. That’s why they asked, “When shall these things be?” Their question revealed their confusion, not Jesus’ intent.

Christ’s prophecy in the first two verses of Matthew 24 was not merely about the destruction of a physical building, but about divine judgment upon His unfaithful Old Testament congregation. The rest of the Olivet Discourse shifts focus to the New Testament congregation, especially in the end times — when spiritual warfare intensifies.


The “wars and rumors of wars” speak to the ongoing conflict between the Word of God and the lies of Satan, delivered through their respective messengers. The “famines” and “pestilences” refer to spiritual droughts and spiritual sickenss where locusts strike men without seal of God within a rebellious house whose foundation has been shaken. It is in this context that the abomination of desolation is set up in the holy place — and on this side of the Cross, the only holy place is the New Testament Church, which received the kingdom after it was taken from Israel (Matthew 21:43). 70AD temple does NOT qualify, no matter how hard you try to defend it!


This has nothing to do with the physical destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. — period. Christ was pointing forward to a spiritual crisis within His Church, not backward to the fall of Jerusalem’s stones.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Awwww, look at the Premil and Amil supporting each other with their shared false belief. How cute.

Oh, I see — sounding a little jealous there, aren’t we? Look, we might not agree on every interpretation under the sun, but hey, if we’re both actually reading and understanding what Christ really said in the Olivet Discourse… then glory to God, right? Miracles do happen!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Apparently God took His wrath upon the Jews out by destroying buildings?

Oh yes, clearly God was just furious at architecture that day. Because nothing says “divine judgment” like knocking over some bricks.

No, that’s not what Scripture teaches — but sadly, some still cling to that idea thanks to Josephus’ writings and the usual preterist gymnastics.

Holy Spirit no longer resides there.

View attachment 66103

You're right — the Holy Spirit no longer resided in that temple by the time of its destruction in 70 A.D. The moment Christ gave up His spirit on the cross, “the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:51), signifying that God's presence had departed from that physical structure on THAT DAY. It was no longer a "holy place" — it had become an empty shell, a relic of a covenant that was being fulfilled and replaced.

From that moment on, the true temple of God, that was rebuilt in Christ after his death for 3 days, was no longer found in stone and mortar, but in the body of Christ and the Church made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5). So yes, by 70 A.D., that building in Jerusalem was just that — a building - a fantasy of the Preterists. Holy no more.

But in AD70 it miraculously became the holy place again just long enough for an abomination that causes desolation to appear in the holy place so that the Roman armies could demolish the structure.

Ha-ha. Crazy talking from 70AD theorists.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, do you forget everything I ever tell you? I have told you multiple times that I believe the wrath Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 was the wrath he described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

This is describing the wrath of Christ that will come down on all unbelievers on the day Jesus returns. Peter wrote about this same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12 where he said that the destruction will be by way of fire on the entire earth.

Are the seven vials of God's wrath in Revelation poured out before or after the day Jesus returns in Revelation 19 ?

 

[covenantee]

Of course, the disciples, still operating with an Old Covenant mindset and without the full enlightenment of the Holy Spirit (which came at Pentecost), misunderstood Him and assumed He meant the literal temple structure.

Thank God that they did. As part of the Judaean Church, they escaped with their lives because they believed Jesus literally.

Far wiser than you, they were.

 

[covenantee]

He wasn’t simply speaking about Herod’s temple or even the destruction of the city itself — He was symbolically referring to the people of the Old Testament congregation. They were the "stones" being cast down, representing the fall of a covenantal system that had rejected its Messiah.

Corroboration?

Where in the NT are the people of the Old Testament congregation symbolically referred to as stones?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Many unbelieving Jews were killed and other taken captive at that time.

I think you misunderstood Luke 21:22-24. Yes, Luke these verses do speak of great judgment — but it’s not primarily about the physical destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. with many Jews being physically killed and held away captive into physical nations as you think. Rather, it's a prophecy of spiritual judgment upon the New Testament congregation — the visible Church — during the end times.

“Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck…” (Luke 21:23)

This is symbolic language. Those “with child” and “that give suck” represent people within the congregation — the Church — who are seeking spiritual nourishment or trying to raise up others in Truth, but can no longer find it. Why? Because the Church (pictured as the woman) has become apostate, and truth is no longer being faithfully proclaimed within her walls. That is the woe — the spiritual famine in a once-holy place. When people are desire to be saved or seek one, but no longer find "death" in Christ in order to be saved. They does not realize it, but we see the signs of this when we obviosily see false prophts and christs ruling in their congregation with false doctrines and lying signs and wonders. Why?

Because it is the God's “Wrath upon this people…”

This wrath is not upon national Israel or unbelieving Jews per se which it already took place at the Cross, but upon the corporate people of God — those professing to be the New Testament congregation near the End. They have the Word, the ordinances, the appearance of holiness — but have become spiritually corrupt and rebellious, just as ancient Israel once did! The warnings are directed to a covenant people who should know better.

“They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations…” (Luke 21:24a)

Again, this is not merely a military conquest — this is spiritual captivity. Just as Revelation 9:4–6 describes those who are not sealed by God being tormented, here we see a parallel: members of the visible Church who are not truly born again are left spiritually exposed as they are beiing killed by the sword of Satan - the false doctrines that will led them away into spiritual captive! Not by Rome, but by false gospels, doctrines of demons, and worldly deception. In God's eyes, they become just as lost as the unbelieving world who remains in spiritual bondage. That is what the Lord talked about! Moreover...

“Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24b)

Jerusalem here symbolizes the external, visible Church — now overrun by unbelief. The “Gentiles” are those who do not belong to Christ but now came into rule and lead within the Church itself: false teachers, corrupt leaders, and worldly influences. This trampling continues until the return of Christ, when the time of the Gentiles — this age of spiritual corruption and testing — is fulfilled. This is exactly what Christ talked about in Revelation 11:1-2:
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The outer court represents those who profess to be Christians but have no true relationship with Christ — because they have not been sealed by God. They remain spiritually unconverted, and thus vulnerable to deception by false prophets and false Christs.

These are the ones who, in their apostasy, reject and silence the faithful testimony of the Two Witnesses — the true Elect — effectively “killing” their voice within the congregation. FOR THIS REASON, or FOR THIS CAUSE, God hands them over to judgment, allowing the “Gentiles” (spiritually, the unsaved and false leaders) to overrun and trample the holy city — a picture of the visible Church where deceived people will believe their lies per 2Th 2:8-11:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"

It’s the same pattern Christ warned about in His day: just as the Scribes and Pharisees persecuted the the Jews to rejected the Christ and His Truth, so too do false Christians reject God’s true messengers in the last days. Déjà vu indeed. This is why we need spiritual discern what Christ really talked about concerning the Jews and the falling temple/city in His days becasue the New Testament congregation in the end as the temple and the city will go through the same thing!

So Luke 21 is not describing the end of the Old Testament system in 70 A.D., but the spiritual downfall and judgment upon the New Testament congregation in the final days. It's a warning for our time — not just a historical account.

@Zao is life

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thank God that they did. As part of the Judaean Church, they escaped with their lives because they believed Jesus literally.

Far wiser than you, they were.

Wrong people. Wrong Judea. Wrong Church. Wrong time. Olivet Discourse has NOTHING to do with "Judaean CHurch" or "70AD."

But believe whatever you like. The Lord judges, and I am comfortable with it.

 

[covenantee]

Wrong people. Wrong Judea. Wrong Church. Wrong time. Olivet Discourse has NOTHING to do with "Judaean CHurch" or "70AD."

But believe whatever you like. The Lord judges, and I am comfortable with it.

I believe what the Judaean Church believed.

Their lives testify to the wisdom of that belief.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Corroboration?

Where in the NT are the people of the Old Testament congregation symbolically referred to as stones?

Didn't you read in Scripture?

Mat 21:42-45
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The chief priests and Pharisees, along with all the unbelieving Jews who followed them, were the builders! But what were they building? A physical temple? Or a spiritual congregation, which the true body of Christ - the very one who has been trying to gather these children together since the beginning!

Have you never read this before?

Look again at what Jesus said:

Matthew 23:37–38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Did Christ blame the world for killing the prophets? Did He point the finger at non-covenanted Romans or some political power? No. Christ was not concerned with being politically correct — He laid the blame squarely on His own covenant people, on the very ones who were entrusted to build and care for His congregation which the temple of his body REPRESENTS!

He didn’t blame the unsaved world for the tribulation of the saints, the killing of the prophets, or even His own crucifixion. He blamed His own congregation — those who claimed to be the builders. The Jews of the Old Testament were building a temple, not just in stone, but spiritually — and they rejected the very cornerstone (Christ) of the building! Hello?!

Not a physical temple — which was only a shadow pointing to the true — but a living, spiritual temple in Christ, the true tabernacle, the one He said would be torn down and rise again in three days. Get it?

Likewise today, in the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION, many pseudo-prophets, self-important theologians, and even well-meaning Christians are making the same mistake. They hate us as the Two Witnesses and our truthful testimony. They rejected and killed us just like the Jews rejected and killed Christ! But if we are to follow Christ’s example, we must place the blame where He did — at the feet of the unfaithful leaders and the people who believe their lies within the congregation. This is why the souls of the martyrs who have dead before us cried to God how long before He will do something about his unfaithful congregation the one that is responsible for the blood of the Saints. Not the unsaved world!

Just as in Christ’s day, it is the pastors, teachers, and ministers within the unfaithful Church — not the unbelieving world — who revile, slander, and spiritually "kill" God’s true witnesses. They are the ones who silence the truth. They are the ones responsible for shedding the blood of the saints. They are the ones who bear the guilt of rejecting God's messengers — just like the Old Testament Jews who killed the prophets and indeed the Son of God before them.

Yes, it was God’s own covenant people who killed Christ — but that was by divine purpose. Christ willingly gave Himself, and His death was ultimately for us — His elect, His faithful witnesses. He died for our sakes. And God used the rebellion of the disobedient to accomplish His sovereign plan of redemption.

So if you really want to know who is responsible for the blood of the prophets, don’t look to the world — look to the very congregation that claims to represent God. It is the unfaithful and rebellious builders of the one true temple, which is Christ.

Spiritually speaking, the Jews of Old Testament Israel were the “stones” of that building, just as professing but false Christians today are also the “stones” of the New Testament Israel that has been rebuilt since the Cross. Both have fallen: the Old Testament congregation fell at the Cross when they rejected and killed their Messiah, and the New Testament congregation is falling now under the judgment of Babylon the Great, near the Second Coming, as many professing believers continue to reject the truth and persecute God’s Two Witnesses - the Elect because we were given power to preach Christ's Word. What Christ was going through, Elect will go through the same thing!

So... from both covenants, there remains a faithful remnant — the true Elect, Jews and Gentiles. These are the true builders of the spiritual temple that will never fall, because it is built in Christ, the Cornerstone. Selah!

 

[covenantee]

Didn't you read in Scripture?

Mat 21:42-45
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The chief priests and Pharisees, along with all the unbelieving Jews who followed them, were the builders! But what were they building? A physical temple? Or a spiritual congregation, which the true body of Christ - the very one who has been trying to gather these children together since the beginning!

Have you never read this before?

Look again at what Jesus said:

Matthew 23:37–38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Did Christ blame the world for killing the prophets? Did He point the finger at non-covenanted Romans or some political power? No. Christ was not concerned with being politically correct — He laid the blame squarely on His own covenant people, on the very ones who were entrusted to build and care for His congregation which the temple of his body REPRESENTS!

He didn’t blame the unsaved world for the tribulation of the saints, the killing of the prophets, or even His own crucifixion. He blamed His own congregation — those who claimed to be the builders. The Jews of the Old Testament were building a temple, not just in stone, but spiritually — and they rejected the very cornerstone (Christ) of the building! Hello?!

Not a physical temple — which was only a shadow pointing to the true — but a living, spiritual temple in Christ, the true tabernacle, the one He said would be torn down and rise again in three days. Get it?

Likewise today, in the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION, many pseudo-prophets, self-important theologians, and even well-meaning Christians are making the same mistake. They hate us as the Two Witnesses and our truthful testimony. They rejected and killed us just like the Jews rejected and killed Christ! But if we are to follow Christ’s example, we must place the blame where He did — at the feet of the unfaithful leaders and the people who believe their lies within the congregation. This is why the souls of the martyrs who have dead before us cried to God how long before He will do something about his unfaithful congregation the one that is responsible for the blood of the Saints. Not the unsaved world!

Just as in Christ’s day, it is the pastors, teachers, and ministers within the unfaithful Church — not the unbelieving world — who revile, slander, and spiritually "kill" God’s true witnesses. They are the ones who silence the truth. They are the ones responsible for shedding the blood of the saints. They are the ones who bear the guilt of rejecting God's messengers — just like the Old Testament Jews who killed the prophets and indeed the Son of God before them.

Yes, it was God’s own covenant people who killed Christ — but that was by divine purpose. Christ willingly gave Himself, and His death was ultimately for us — His elect, His faithful witnesses. He died for our sakes. And God used the rebellion of the disobedient to accomplish His sovereign plan of redemption.

So if you really want to know who is responsible for the blood of the prophets, don’t look to the world — look to the very congregation that claims to represent God. It is the unfaithful and rebellious builders of the one true temple, which is Christ.

Spiritually speaking, the Jews of Old Testament Israel were the “stones” of that building, just as professing but false Christians today are also the “stones” of the New Testament Israel that has been rebuilt since the Cross. Both have fallen: the Old Testament congregation fell at the Cross when they rejected and killed their Messiah, and the New Testament congregation is falling now under the judgment of Babylon the Great, near the Second Coming, as many professing believers continue to reject the truth and persecute God’s Two Witnesses - the Elect because we were given power to preach Christ's Word. What Christ was going through, Elect will go through the same thing!

So... from both covenants, there remains a faithful remnant — the true Elect, Jews and Gentiles. These are the true builders of the spiritual temple that will never fall, because it is built in Christ, the Cornerstone. Selah!

It is exclusively Christ and His True Church who are described as spiritual stones: Matthew 21:42, Matthew 21:44, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17-18, Acts 4:11, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:4-8

Nowhere are OT Israelites or anyone else described thus.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is exclusively Christ and His True Church who are described as spiritual stones: Matthew 21:42, Matthew 21:44, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17-18, Acts 4:11, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:4-8

Nowhere are OT Israelites or anyone else described thus.

They are the builders just like us. What temple did they build who have rejected the cornerstone OF THAT BUILDING? Who was the cornerstone of thst building before the fall at the cross?

 

[shepherdsword]

Can we all agree that we need to look for the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Can we all agree that we need to look for the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?

As the watchmen, we are commanded to look for the true signs of Christ's coming. Do you know what the signs of Christ's return are in Scripture?

 

[shepherdsword]

As the watchmen, we are commanded to look for the true signs of Christ's coming. Do you know what the signs of Christ's return are in Scripture?

Please tell me what you think they are. We can look at Matthew 24 and 2Thes 2 for starters

 

[TribulationSigns]

I like to add that the difference is that someone says things that cannot be Biblically validated and passes them off as the actual Word of God. Allow me to demonstrate the difference.

For example, if I were to say that I think many Jewish revolutionaries were hold up in the hills in AD 70, and someone else says they think that only a few revolutionary Jews went up into the hills, then we have a legitimate difference of opinion. Either of us could be right or wrong in our opinion, we can't really know for sure. But this has NOTHING to do with understanding the Bible or prophecy. On the other hand, if I were to say that the Bible teaches that in the New Testament dispensation that started at the cross, the Holy Temple of God is the Church and no longer the Jewish Temple, and you were to deny that in some way, this is NOT a simple matter of legitimate difference of opinion, this is a denial of the Word of God. There is a difference! When you do everything you can to avoid receiving the truth of scripture, it's not opinion, it's denial and what God calls rebellion. It's about keeping the Word of God faithfully, rather than trampling it under foot, ignoring it, or finding some "irrational" way to get around it. You simply cannot look at Lamentations chapter four of the gold becoming dim and changed, and "read into" this scripture that it is referring to the Elect. That is just "abominable handling" of the scriptures.

Psalms 119:4-7

• "Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
• O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
• Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
• I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments."

Likewise, we cannot postulate that God Himself is making a prophesy of an Old Testament Temple, years after Calvary, and calling it the "Holy Temple" that is becoming abominable, and that believers must then flee from when they see this action take place. That's ludicrous! The Old Testament system of ceremonial worship in the "holy place" in the Holy Temple of Israel came to an END at the cross, not AD 70! God is not saying the abomination will start in AD 70 and that is when the Apostles should look for it and flee. Huh?! That makes absolutely NO biblical sense. AD 70 wasn't the beginning of a new era. No it wasn't. It was the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The fact is, their house was abominable then, and it's desolation ushered in the New Testament Church dispensation! So the "difference" in our approach to prophesy is that one (the AD 70 interpretation) is extra-Biblical historical speculation, and the other (that Israel fell at the cross) is the "witness of the Word."

When Christ said true Christians "hear His words" He is not just whistling Dixie. It is an divine characteristic of true Christianity to receive God's Word, and a characteristic of the unfaithful to do everything in their power to get around it, or to not receive it. Because true Christians have the Spirit of God within them, who is not offended by His own Truth. Thus, by the Spiritual, we receive the Spiritual word.

Matthew 11:14-15

• "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
• He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Christ says "IF" you will receive it, because He knows full well that the Scribes, Pharisees, Judaizers and other sundry religionists will not receive it. They cannot receive it. For this reason, some Premillennialists are still looking for Elijah to come back today to fulfill that prophecy. Like those enamored with Josephus, they are so constrained by the historical or physical, that they cannot even comprehend that this scripture was fulfilled already some other way. Likewise with the destruction of Israel. What many fail to understand was that Israel was prophesied to fall spiritually by the hand of God, not physically by the hand of Roman soldiers! But because their eyes are on the temporal, the worldly, the physical rather than the spiritual, the physical is all that they seem to see. They don't recognize the Prophet Elijah came before Christ, or that the Temple was destroyed long before AD 70. As Christ said, "IF" you will receive it, he who hath an ear, let him hear. The Truth is, stones fell, highways were straightened, ears were made deaf, valleys made low, eyes blinded, cities wasted, fig trees cursed that they never bear fruit again, etc., and it had nothing to do with the physical!!!! People "recognize" that in the mind of God the temple fell with the tearing of the veil in the Temple at Christ's death, but they then "irrationally" refuse to RECEIVE the truth that this (according to the mind of God, which they recognize) was the fulfillment of the fall of the Temple. It is "foolishness" to some people that we would declare such a thing unless a physical temple falls. ..But not so!

1st Corinthians 2:14-16

• "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
• But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

You see knowing the mind of Christ involves "following The Word of God." Because that is the revealed mind of Christ that instructs us. Not Josephus nor his merry band of Historicists.

The problem is, every gospel that is not the true gospel, does this dance called the "half-step." They refuse to receive "some particular truths of scripture," and others want to simply chalk our difference in methodology to a difference of opinion when it's not really that simple. Whether Free Willism, Premillennialism, Roman Catholicism, dispensationalism, Mormonism, Preterism, Ecumenism, Liberalism, whatever! They all come to their conclusions based upon the flawed premise that they can interpret the scriptures, when only God can interpret scripture. Not Josephus, Not John Darby, not the Pope, not Joe Smith, not John Calvin, not TribulationSigns, or any man. Interpretations belong to God, that we have to seek for it in HIs Word! Thus the fall of the Temple is defined by the mind of Christ, not by the vain imaginations of man looking at "history!"

What is the difference you may ask? The difference is that "GOD SAID" that He destroyed Israel, took the Kingdom from her, and gave it to another nation who would bring forth the fruits. By everyone's account, this spoke of the Church! Period. This Church of the kingdom of God already started at Pentecost, not AD 70! Period. What further witness do we need than that of the Bible? Josephus? Other Jewish historians? Traditions? No, it's just common sense that we simply "RECEIVE" if we have ears to hear. But I think that it was Francois Voltaire who said, "common sense is just not that common!" Oh how right he was. What he (and most of the rest of mankind) didn't understand is the reason for this. It's because man is a sinful creature, desperately wicked, and he wants "his will" to be done rather than God's. Another way to describe irrational behavior, is sin.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Please tell me what you think they are. We can look at Matthew 24 and 2Thes 2 for starters

I asked you a direct question, and you should be able to give a clear answer—especially since you were the one who said we need to be looking for Christ’s coming. So the question is this: how are we supposed to look? What exactly are we looking for to know that Christ is coming?

You mentioned Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2—but that’s not enough. Don’t just throw out references. Show the specific chapter and verses, and explain what you believe God is actually telling us through them. If you're going to make a claim, be prepared to back it up with Scripture and interpretation. Take your time.

 

[shepherdsword]

I asked you a direct question, and you should be able to give a clear answer—especially since you were the one who said we need to be looking for Christ’s coming. So the question is this: how are we supposed to look? What exactly are we looking for to know that Christ is coming?

I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. Can we agree that we all need to watch for Jesus' second coming?

You mentioned Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2—but that’s not enough. Don’t just throw out references. Show the specific chapter and verses, and explain what you believe God is actually telling us through them. If you're going to make a claim, be prepared to back it up with Scripture and interpretation. Take your time.

We can look at Matthew 24 and 2Thes 2 for starters

What part of "starters" do you not understand? I asked you to share your thoughts in a respectful way and you respond back with some self assumed air of superiority. As if you were some paragon of eschatological knowledge instead of the deceived person you actually are. I will tell you this. The first thing a watchmen need to watch over is his own soul and keep it in check instead of hurling the insults you have spoken all through this thread. One can't even have a cordial conversation with you...as other have also noted in this thread.
Goodbye

 

[TribulationSigns]

I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. Can we agree that we all need to watch for Jesus' second coming?



What part of "starters" do you not understand? I asked you to share your thoughts in a respectful way and you respond back with some self assumed air of superiority. As if you were some paragon of eschatological knowledge instead of the deceived person you actually are. I will tell you this. The first thing a watchmen need to watch over is his own soul and keep it in check instead of hurling the insults you have spoken all through this thread. One can't even have a cordial conversation with you...as other have also noted in this thread.
Goodbye

LOL—oh please, don’t play innocent now. You opened this can of worms and then ran for cover. You made the claim about watching for Christ’s return, but when asked how and what to look for, suddenly you’ve got stage fright. What’s the matter—scared to be corrected? Because all I’m seeing now is a flood of excuses out of your mouth instead of answers.”