Hell as the default for humankind?

[Behold]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

[

What is wrong with your "Picture">?

Its that your ""picture""" is coming from a False Gospel., which is why you have so many issues.

For example... there is this "God sends them to hell".......which is not as it seems.
What God does, is He allows anyone to go to Heaven, who will go to The Cross, and receive by faith, His Salvation, while they are on this earth, alive, and breathing.
This is how you CHOOSE to not go to Hell.
If everyone would chosse Jesus, by faith.....then Hell would be currently empty.
Its not.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@St. SteVen, just because God knows something in advance doesn’t diminish His righteousness at all. Does it make you uncomfortable that He is always right?

 

[Bob]

Thanks to all for food for thought.

By the way, here is a relevant passage from Job:

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

etc.

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

This means that, in His foreknowledge, long before He established this age, God knew that many would neither choose Him nor even come to know Him. I understand this can make some uncomfortable, but if He foresees His segulah (treasured) people, who are we to question His omniscience?

The fact remains. Some are consigned to destruction while others are elected to life.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

The fact remains. Some are consigned to destruction while others are elected to life.

[

Referring to Romans 9:22?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@St. SteVen

I take it my question about your comfort levels on this subject went unanswered...I guess I can read into that, what I may.

Context!

God is not made responsible for the sinful condition itself. The preparation for destruction is the result of human choice; it is man who allows himself to deteriorate, despite having access to knowledge and a functioning conscience. Even when shown favor, Pharaoh “sinned yet more, and hardened his heart” making it unmistakably clear that he had no one to blame but himself. In this light, it is reasonable to conclude that God did not prepare Pharaoh for destruction, Pharaoh prepared himself. As did Judas, and many more like them.

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen, just because God knows something in advance doesn’t diminish His righteousness at all. Does it make you uncomfortable that He is always right?

What makes me uncomfortable is that you have no problem with God mercilessly torturing humans for all eternity.
Anyone with a conscience knows that is wrong.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

@St. SteVen

What I find interesting about those who question why God has made them as they are is that they rarely, if ever, recognise His character. And I believe this is what the writer of Romans is getting at!

God’s goodness and patience are meant to lead people to repentance (Romans 2:4).

Romans 2:4 (ESV): “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?”

I've looked back at your posts Steven and rarely if ever do you dwell in His Character - why is that?

In the days of Noah, we see the same long-suffering nature of God, as He waited patiently for humanity to turn back to Him (1 Peter 3:20).

The same is true today: “The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).

If you're willing to hold up the mirror and reflect honestly on yourself, I think you'll discover some meaningful insights. I'm sure you'd agree, it's often possible to learn a great deal about people online: how they think, what they value, and what truly drives them.

This is why I made the point about God always being right. You may not fully understand His motives or have all the knowledge to judge them accurately, but if your starting point is the belief that God is always right, you'll be in a better position to discover His true purpose, rather than being led into skepticism or cynicism.

Here is a positive way to frame this OP.

nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything Ac 17:25.

God provides the spirit of life by which all living things exist. In this, He is revealed as the Sustainer. God "serves" humanity by supplying the very foundation of their existence.

Some may not want eternal Life - some may simply be thankful for the gift of this short life.

The grave (hell) is a known truth for all mankind, regardless of their knowledge and religious experience.

There is a positive in the negative!

 

[St. SteVen]

I take it my question about your comfort levels on this subject went unanswered...I guess I can read into that, what I may.

Unanswered?
I have other things to do than answer your questions on a forum.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

What makes me uncomfortable is that you have no problem with God mercilessly torturing humans for all eternity.
Anyone with a conscience knows that is wrong.

[

I'll let you read my other post before replying to this one.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Unanswered?
I have other things to do than answer your questions on a forum.

[

No need to be aggressive Steven - no threat here!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I wonder how people feel about Pauls message in Acts 17:27

that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Nice phrasing, isn't it?

The Greek word pselaphao means “to grope” as a blind person would. Despite God's nearness and the many evidences of His presence through creation and providence, spiritual blindness (as seen in v23) causes humanity to grope uncertainly toward Him. This reveals the need for divine revelation, as referenced later in verse 30.

I wonder how many of us can relate to this groping our way to Him?

The nature and purpose of God are hidden from the natural mind. To truly know Him requires intentional effort to rise above human ignorance.

As we've concluded, if ignorance is the path you choose, then the grave may seem like a silent and peaceful place. But if you are enlightened and still reject God, then the grave becomes a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth! A tormenting awareness that you will never rise from that hole in the ground. No wonder Christ and the Apostles used such vivid metaphors to describe it!

 

[St. SteVen]

By the way, here is a relevant passage from Job:

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Unfortunately this passage is used as a way of presenting a tyrant God who can do as He pleases with no moral compass.
Job's patience was rewarded with this scolding.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

What makes me uncomfortable is that you have no problem with God mercilessly torturing humans for all eternity.
Anyone with a conscience knows that is wrong.

[

No doubt by now you would understand I do not believe as you do.

 

[Jericho]

Why would God send humans there then?

Is it God who sends them there, or is it their own choices that sends them there? People would rather put all the responsibility on God and none on themselves.

Did God see the Fall coming. He's omniscient, right?

I'm sure He did, but I'm also sure He had a plan for redemption before it ever happened too.

Not everyone has heard.
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no knowledge of it.

I've addressed this before. We all have a conscience and nature itself teaches there is a God. I believe they will be judged on what they knew and how they responded to that limited revelation.

I think being thrown into a volcano would be bad whether God was there or not.
It might be worse if He was there.

You missed my point. Hell is the antithesis of everything that God is. God is love, light, peace, etc. When God is totally removed from the equation, you get hell.

Anyone who doesn't love God hasn't met Him yet.

What then of Satan and fallen angels that joined him? They had full knowledge of God, and yet still rebelled against Him. We can see plenty examples on earth of children who don't love their parents despite their parents loving them.

Not everyone has rejected Him. Even the Apostle Peter rejected Christ at one time.
He turned out alright. - LOL

Not everyone will accept Him either. Peter did deny Him, but I don't think he rejected Christ in his heart. It was said out of fear of persecution, and he later showed remorse for it and was forgiven.

 

[Deborah_]

How would you describe it?

[

As Jesus describes it in Luke 13:34.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

 

[Hiddenthings]

What makes me uncomfortable is that you have no problem with God mercilessly torturing humans for all eternity.
Anyone with a conscience knows that is wrong.

[

I perceive an interesting comparison to your above statement and the message Paul is teaching the Athenians in Acts 17.

You see they had their eyes wide open to admire their idols, they were spiritually blind to the presence of the one true God. Paul is essentially telling them: “God remains hidden to you, not because He is far off, but because your spiritual blindness prevents you from seeing Him. Yet He is near to each one of us.

I don't know where you get these ideas of eternal torment - it's possible you have swallowed the lies, who knows.

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Mark 9:48 “‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’”

Now there are Christians, deluded and deceived who actually believe there are eternal worms but rest assured its metaphoric language for eternal death.

If you believe your post is true then you are no different to the Athenians and all their false gods.

 

[ProDeo]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

It's not that I think the picture is wrong, I just have a question why the concept of hell and the LOF aren't revealed in the OT and millions died unaware of their future in afterlife, and actually also the idea of afterlife in the OT isn't even crystal clear, the closest is in Dan 12:2 (2nd-century BC). Why wait so long with the introduction of salvation in the NT and the half of the posts on the forum curiously enough are about salvation.

Surely I believe this is part of God's plan, that's not the point, the question is why.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

Why not tell Noah about the afterlife, hell, LOF and salvation ?

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's not that I think the picture is wrong, I just have a question why the concept of hell and the LOF aren't revealed in the OT and millions died unaware of their future in afterlife, and actually also the idea of afterlife in the OT isn't even crystal clear, the closest is in Dan 12:2 (2nd-century BC). Why wait so long with the introduction of salvation in the NT and the half of the posts on the forum curiously enough are about salvation.

Surely I believe this is part of God's plan, that's not the point, the question is why.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

Why not tell Noah about the afterlife, hell, LOF and salvation ?

It's not taught in the NT either. The issue Pro is some Christian's "see" what they want to see, and no explaining will change this.

 

[ProDeo]

It's not taught in the NT either. The issue Pro is some Christian's "see" what they want to see, and no explaining will change this.

I am not following, afterlife and the LOF are not taught in the NT ?

Then what is taught in the NT ?