Is the Book of Job in Conflict with the Doctrine of Providence?

[Behold]

“which proves God allowed them to do it.” To allow someone to do it…allow. If I say my husband allowed me to do something…doesn’t that imply my husband has control, in allowing it?

"Allow" = Free Will choices.

God didnt create Adam & Eve = ROBOTs.

He create them "in our image" "Likeness" ..." Like US.."

God created man with God-Likness, in many ways., including being able to make choices.

"SIN" for example.....is based on choices........its not God caused.......Its YOU Caused.......Because you chose it, you wanted it, and you enjoyed it.

Thousands went to Hell today becaue they didn't CHOOSE to Go to Heaven while they were breathing......= they refused to Trust in Christ.. , and God honors their Choice AFTER THEY DIE.
They CHOSE to remain so., and that choice, denies them Heaven and gained them Hell, after they die.

But should He not be in control of what we do and say.

You are in control of what you choose.
You chose to be here. on the Forum.
You chose to respond to me.
YOU are doing this......based on what you chose to do.
What will you choose next as your Free Will decides?

We want God to be in control of our thoughts, actions, words so they are not spewing our own thoughts which are lower, but His thoughts, His actions, speaking His Words and not our own?

God will never be in control of your thoughts or your actions.
YOu are in control of what you think, what you want, and what you will do next.
When you submit to God, fully, then God's Grace can empower you to be an overcomer, but you have to be one....its not automatic.
Its a daily fight.

Do you want to please God?
Then study the NT every day till you die.....never miss a day......and become a sincere disciple of Paul's Theology.
That's how you gain the revelation knowledge that is "the knowledge of God", and when this is perfected IN you, then Paul says that the Christian has become : "as many as be perfect"......vs being a diaper baby, Hebrews 6:1...for life.

“we have the mind of Christ” …do then we say not so, but our thoughts should be our own?!

Paul had that exact mind he is addressing ., and those he was addressing had that mind also.
However, there is this mind, in most Christians.

= "who has bewitched you"......>Paul says, that you "no longer obey the Truth".

= You are "fallen from Grace".

Who is that one?
Its anyone who believe they can lose their Salvation.
Its anyone who believes that "water washed away my sin".

 

[Bob]

The Holy Bible proves that God has an "ultimate" plan for Mankind.
This Spiritual Book is a book of Progressive Revelation, whereby God shows us how He has dealt with man, ... and is now dealing with Man, and will deal with man differently in the future.

God also has a will for us, and a path for us.
For example, im called into the Ministry....so, that is God's will for me...but i didnt have to do it, exactly as Jesus didnt have to go to The Cross.
Jesus couild have called down Leigions of Angels, like He told them, and changed the PLAN.

God's will is permissive, regarding most things He would have us do......as He wants us to choose to do His will, because we love Him.
Can you be a Jonah, and refuse and still be made to do it?......Yes...but that is an exception.....that is not the rule.
Never try to use an exception to try to prove a rule.
God does not force His will on you.

Its the same as "putting on the Helmet of Salvation" or "Giving to the poor".
God has no shotgun pointed at you, no lightning bolt in each fist designed : as "do my will, you have no choice".
God allows us to choose, and in this way, = WE are always responsible for how we behave, and for what we choose to do, NEXT.

What are you going to do next?
Whatever it is, its your own choice.

It is not clear what our disagreement is at this point. We both agree that our choices influence our individual salvations. We also agree that Revelation describes God’s ultimate plans for humanity. We also should agree that no one person or group or nation can thwart God’s plan.

Moreover, the details of my life, and yours, are not just determined by our decisions, but the free-will decisions of everyone else, as well as the steady rollout of God’s sovereign plan.

Peace.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is not clear what our disagreement is at this point. We both agree that our choices influence our individual salvations. We also agree that Revelation describes God’s ultimate plans for humanity. We also should agree that no one person or group or nation can thwart God’s plan.

Moreover, the details of my life, and yours, are not just determined by our decisions, but the free-will decisions of everyone else, as well as the steady rollout of God’s sovereign plan.

Peace.

It seems to me, Eve and Adam made bad choices, starting with Eve first who was deceived by Satan.
The choices people make today are as bad or much worse as theirs!
The exercise of your will gets you into lots of trouble.

Jesus said this about His own will, good plan! A godly plan.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Luke 22:41-43
New King James Version
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,
42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
43 [a]Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

And James says this about 'our' will, showing that God is in control of your destiny.
Be glad then that your name is written in Heaven by Him.

James 4
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow [h]we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”

16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

 

[Behold]

Moreover, the details of my life, and yours, are not just determined by our decisions, b

Your future (destiny) is shaped, is created by what you chose, already in your past.

Many is the time......that a Christian's Prayers..... are asking God to help them out of what they chose to do.......a while back, that became the consequences of their free will choice, that has blown up their life.

Christians are no longer "under the law".....but they are under this.....>>>"you will reap what you sow"......as a future harvest.
Every deed is a seed, planted in the spiritual realm, that is going to bring a harvest, .....and you can call this destiny.
Its always on the way to you........so be careful of the seeds you plant., Reader.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God created man with God-Likness, in many ways., including being able to make choices.

You said “Including being able to make choices.” Except God always makes the right choice, man does not.

God will never be in control of your thoughts or your actions.
YOu are in control of what you think, what you want, and what you will do next.

That is depressing. What of taking all thoughts captive unto the Lord? Should we not grow in His mind, thoughts and actions? And decrease in our own thoughts, mind and actions? Since our own thoughts of lust, pride and all that is what got us into trouble in the first place?
Isaiah 58:13 KJV
If you turn away your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words:…?
Philippians 2:20-21 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. [21] For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

What is so great about having our own thoughts, our own will if it leads us to death? Isn’t God’s thoughts He has, for us better than our own?

When you submit to God, fully, then God's Grace can empower you to be an overcomer, but you have to be one....it’s not automatic.
Its a daily fight.

I just don’t agree. That to me sounds like giving man the glory and not God as the power that overcomes. I personally don’t think there is a speck of making the right choice within a carnal mind. If I ever have a right thought, a right action, a right way it has to be God’s Spirit in me and not of my own doing. It has to be His Fruit sown for if the work is of men it comes to nothing.

 

[Wick Stick]

The Book begins with a description of the many gifts God bestowed on Job, followed by a (God-inspired) dialog between God and Satan. That dialog essentially tells us, “Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

Is that dialog needed? From the New Testament we know that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” God’s plans for people of faith cannot be reduced to any isolated cause.

In the wonderful poetry of Chapters 38-42, God thunders a long (evasive?) answer to Job’s question, “How did I offend you, Lord“? God never discloses His interchange with Satan. Why not? In any event, a NT writer tells “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.”

Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.

We are left with the question, why did God choose to cloud our understanding of Providence when He inspired this important work?

Blessings.

I'm not sure if you're open to textural criticism, but the thinking on Job is... that it's a work of multiple authorship.

The original text seems to be of Canaanite origin, rather than Israelite. A redaction seems to have been made... by an Edomite, not an Israelite. The redacted portion includes a 4th friend (Elihu) on top of the 3 friends in the original work.

Job is odd among the books of the Bible. It seems to come from a period BEFORE there even WAS an Israel.

 

[Lambano]

Do you think the author of Job struggled with the question of why crappy things happen to good people?

The common understanding of "Providence" does not satisfactorily explain the way the world really is. Job provides a necessary counterpoint. But I still find it less than satisfactory.

 

[Behold]

You said “Including being able to make choices.” Except God always makes the right choice, man does not.

Its similar to watching your chilidren grow up., as they always make a lot of bad choices....and often when they know its wrong to do whatever it is they chose to do.

That is depressing. What of taking all thoughts captive unto the Lord?

So, what the verse means, is that you take all thoughts captive......you cast them down......you get rid of them, that try to replace Jesus's Salvation that is a Gift......with any type of trying to stay saved, broken faith. = Legalism., that is Self Righteousness.

Should we not grow in His mind, thoughts and actions?

Growing in the Knowledge of God, and walking in the Spirit, have to do with gaining revelation that is connected to working out your Salvation..........= the completed understand of it.

If you turn away your foot from the sabbath,

One of the reasons the Pharisees wanted to Kill Jesus is because He healed on the Sabbath.

What is so great about having our own thoughts, our own will if it leads us to death? Isn’t God’s thoughts He has, for us better than our own?

If you truly want God's Thoughts, then Open the NT......and read Paul's Epistles and do this every day......as He is the author of "doctrine for the Church".

Its right there waiting for you.
But you have to do it. You have to study it..... 2 Tim 2:15

I personally don’t think there is a speck of making the right choice within a carnal mind.

If a Christian is in the carnal mind then their mind is "enmity against God"., and they are "fallen from Grace" and 'in the Flesh".....>Paul Teaches.

 

[Bob]

Do you think the author of Job struggled with the question of why crappy things happen to good people?

The common understanding of "Providence" does not satisfactorily explain the way the world really is. Job provides a necessary counterpoint. But I still find it less than satisfactory.

Thank you for commenting.

The author? Isn’t the Book of Job God’s word?

Peace

 

[Lambano]

The author? Isn’t the Book of Job God’s word?

We have different understandings about what "inspired" means and how inspiration works. The books of the Bible also reflect their human authors and their concerns. John's writings have their own recognizable style, as does Paul. Look for it.

And if that makes me a heretic, so be it.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Isn’t the Book of Job God’s word?

Yes it is.

God had all of what happened to Job to be recorded and put in to His Canon.

 

[Davy]

Job represents one of God's chosen elect, which is why he was shown having been blessed with so much, and also why God knew Job would not turn when tested by Satan. God's restoration of Job's wealth was a double-portion more than he originally had, which is a sign of a chosen elect in Old Testament times.

Job's problem was that he failed to recognize that he was guilty of anything to deserve the trials, and he was basically correct, except for one thing, he failed to recognize God's Authority and Power with allowing him to be tested. Even his wayward friends couldn't convince Job that he did some sin to deserve his plight. In final, God simply showed His Power and Authority to Job in the matter, asking Job the questions of Job 38 thru 41.