Is the Book of Job in Conflict with the Doctrine of Providence?

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Bob

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The Book begins with a description of the many gifts God bestowed on Job, followed by a (God-inspired) dialog between God and Satan. That dialog essentially tells us, “Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

Is that dialog needed? From the New Testament we know that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” God’s plans for people of faith cannot be reduced to any isolated cause.

In the wonderful poetry of Chapters 38-42, God thunders a long (evasive?) answer to Job’s question, “How did I offend you, Lord“? God never discloses His interchange with Satan. Why not? In any event, a NT writer tells “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.”

Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.

We are left with the question, why did God choose to cloud our understanding of Providence when He inspired this important work?

Blessings.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.
Why is the restoration epilogue unnecessary? Isn’t it key? Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Mark 10:29-34 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that has left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, [30] But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. [31] But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. [32] And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, [33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:24-25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. [25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
 

ScottA

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The Book begins with a description of the many gifts God bestowed on Job, followed by a (God-inspired) dialog between God and Satan. That dialog essentially tells us, “Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

Is that dialog needed? From the New Testament we know that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” God’s plans for people of faith cannot be reduced to any isolated cause.

In the wonderful poetry of Chapters 38-42, God thunders a long (evasive?) answer to Job’s question, “How did I offend you, Lord“? God never discloses His interchange with Satan. Why not? In any event, a NT writer tells “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.”

Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.

We are left with the question, why did God choose to cloud our understanding of Providence when He inspired this important work?

Blessings.
There is no demonstration loss of providence in telling the truth.

In regards to the faithful, no none ultimately perish.
 
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Bob

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Why is the restoration epilogue unnecessary? Isn’t it key? Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Mark 10:29-34 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that has left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, [30] But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. [31] But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. [32] And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, [33] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: [34] And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:24-25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. [25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Thank you for your post.

The commentaries on Mark 10:30 state that what Jesus says is not to be taken literally in our earthly lifetime. Moreover, there are many examples throughout the ages of righteous individuals persecuted by governments, which took all their possessions before cruelly killing them.

The book could have ended with Job accepting God’s earthly suffering for him (but it did not, so one must conclude God had His reasons for what has been written and preserved).

Peace.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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“Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

That's false. Job tells us he started walking in fear being scared his children would curse God and die

He said "what I feared came upon me"

Walking in fear is a sin and that is how the hedge protection God has around Job was broken.





Is that dialog needed?

The Lord inspired it to be put in His Word so questioning what the Lord decided to do creates division between the Lord and those that are questioning what the Lord decided to included in His Word.

That are many things in God's Word that God decided to put in His Word as examples of what NOT to do such as Job doing the same sacrifice over and over due to him being in fear.

The fearful will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8)

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The reason God called Job righteous is that Job did this out of ignorance, but none the less we all reap what we sow which means JOb being in fear is how satan had the right to attack Job and all the Lord did was forbid satan from killing Job.

God does not and cannot stop seedtime and harvest (sowing and reaping) because this is what His entire Kingdom is built up as this is the operating system of His Kingdom in that it's how the Kingdom functions
 

Big Boy Johnson

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The commentaries on Mark 10:30 state that what Jesus says is not to be taken literally in our earthly lifetime.

In other words, you believe what men say instead of what the Lord says.

The best way to be deceived in these last days is to read "commentaries"



The book could have ended with Job accepting God’s earthly suffering for him

You are confused and should instead believe what Jesus said in John 10:10

Once Job got out of fear and back in to faith, God turned the entire situation around for Job and he ended up way way better off than before showing that it's God's will for His faithful to be bless and to be delivered from suffering.

If He wanted man to suffer He never would have sent Jesus to the Cross.
 

VictoryinJesus

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The book could have ended with Job accepting God’s earthly suffering for him (but it did not, so one must conclude God had His reasons for what has been written and preserved).
Are you sure it didn’t end with Job accepting God’s earthly suffering for him when Job prayed for his friends? The same friends who gave Job hell, it ends with Job praying for them.
 
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Scott Downey

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The Book begins with a description of the many gifts God bestowed on Job, followed by a (God-inspired) dialog between God and Satan. That dialog essentially tells us, “Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

Is that dialog needed? From the New Testament we know that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” God’s plans for people of faith cannot be reduced to any isolated cause.

In the wonderful poetry of Chapters 38-42, God thunders a long (evasive?) answer to Job’s question, “How did I offend you, Lord“? God never discloses His interchange with Satan. Why not? In any event, a NT writer tells “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.”

Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.

We are left with the question, why did God choose to cloud our understanding of Providence when He inspired this important work?

Blessings.
What Job suffered was temporary.
God deals with men on an individual basis.

God does whatever He wants and no one can call Him to account for what He does.

1 Then Job answered and said:

2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
[a]My hand is listless because of my groaning.
3 Oh, that I knew where I might find Him,
That I might come to His seat!
4 I would present my case before Him,
And fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know the words which He would answer me,
And understand what He would say to me.
6 Would He contend with me in His great power?
No! But He would take note of me.
7 There the upright could reason with Him,
And I would be delivered forever from my Judge.
8 “Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
9 When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
10 But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.
11 My foot has held fast to His steps;
I have kept His way and not turned aside.
12 I have not departed from the commandment of His lips;
I have treasured the words of His mouth
More than my [b]necessary food.

13 “But He is unique, and who can make Him change?
And whatever His soul desires, that He does.
14 For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such things are with Him.

15 Therefore I am terrified at His presence;
When I consider this, I am afraid of Him.
16 For God made my heart weak,
And the Almighty terrifies me;


17 Because I was not cut off [c]from the presence of darkness,
And He did not hide deep darkness from my face.

Daniel 4

Nebuchadnezzar Praises God​

34 And at the end of the [k]time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.

35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”


Isaiah 40
5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
6 The voice said, “Cry out!”
And [d]he said, “What shall I cry?”
“All flesh is grass,
And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field.
7 The grass withers, the flower fades,
Because the breath of the Lord blows upon it;
Surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our God stands forever.”
9 O Zion,
You who bring good tidings,
Get up into the high mountain;
O Jerusalem,
You who bring good tidings,
Lift up your voice with strength,
Lift it up, be not afraid;
Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!”
10 Behold, the Lord God shall come [e]with a strong hand,
And His arm shall rule for Him;
Behold, His reward is with Him,
And His [f]work before Him.
11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd;
He will gather the lambs with His arm,
And carry them in His bosom,
And gently lead those who are with young.
12 Who has measured the [g]waters in the hollow of His hand,
Measured heaven with a [h]span
And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
Weighed the mountains in scales
And the hills in a balance?
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?

15 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.


18 To whom then will you liken God?
Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
19 The workman molds an image,
The goldsmith overspreads it with gold,
And the silversmith casts silver chains.
20 Whoever is too impoverished for such [i]a contribution
Chooses a tree that will not rot;
He seeks for himself a skillful workman
To prepare a carved image that will not totter.
21 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
23 He [j]brings the princes to nothing;
He makes the judges of the earth useless.
24 Scarcely shall they be planted,
Scarcely shall they be sown,
Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth,
When He will also blow on them,
And they will wither,
And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.
25 “To whom then will you liken Me,
Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high,
And see who has created these things,
Who brings out their host by number;
He calls them all by name,
By the greatness of His might
And the strength of His power;
Not one is missing.
27 Why do you say, O Jacob,
And speak, O Israel:
“My way is hidden from the Lord,
And my just claim is passed over by my God”?
28 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the Lord,
The Creator of the ends of the earth,
Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.
29 He gives power to the weak,
And to those who have no might He increases strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
And the young men shall utterly fall,
31 But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.
 

MatthewG

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The Book begins with a description of the many gifts God bestowed on Job, followed by a (God-inspired) dialog between God and Satan. That dialog essentially tells us, “Little did Job know that God agreed with Satan to test Job’s faith by turning his life upside down.“

Is that dialog needed? From the New Testament we know that God “causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” God’s plans for people of faith cannot be reduced to any isolated cause.

In the wonderful poetry of Chapters 38-42, God thunders a long (evasive?) answer to Job’s question, “How did I offend you, Lord“? God never discloses His interchange with Satan. Why not? In any event, a NT writer tells “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.”

Finally, the restoration epilogue is unnecessary: some of the faithful do in fact physically suffer and perish.

We are left with the question, why did God choose to cloud our understanding of Providence when He inspired this important work?

Blessings.

Hello Bob,

Thank you for engaging in this discussion. As you noted, the Book of Job presents a profound narrative, and it’s worth reflecting on how Job never receives a direct answer from Yahavah—God—as to why he endured such suffering. Instead, God speaks to Job, offers a glimpse of divine perspective, and ultimately restores his family and blessings.

While I personally do not believe Satan is present in the world today in the traditional sense, I do believe that spiritual darkness—or the absence of God’s presence—can lead individuals to pursue paths disconnected from Him. Thankfully, we have the Light of all mankind—Yeshua—and through Him, we can find comfort and be led by the guidance of His Spirit.

Warm regards, Matthew
 
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Behold

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"The doctrine of providence" along with "Calvinism" are not found in a New Testament.
These are cult teachings, very similar.
Reader, Be sure you avoid them, and those who teach this garbage.

The bible is a book of REVELATION and Prophecy...and Doctrine and Spirituality and Truth....., but its not a book of providence.
God's Fore-Knowledge, is not providence, as the heretics falsely teach.
 

Bob

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"The doctrine of providence" along with "Calvinism" are not found in a New Testament.
These are cult teachings, very similar.
Reader, Be sure you avoid them, and those who teach this garbage.

The bible is a book of REVELATION and Prophecy...and Doctrine and Spirituality and Truth....., but its not a book of providence.
God's Fore-Knowledge, is not providence, as the heretics falsely teach.
Thank you for the reply.

The concept of God’s providence, Divine Providence, is found throughout the Bible. If “doctrine” offends you, fair enough.

Simply put, Divine Providence is the governance of God by which He, with wisdom and love, cares for and directs all things in the universe. Divine providence asserts that God is in complete control of all things. This concept stands in direct opposition to the idea that the universe is governed by chance in a universe without purpose.

Surely we agree.

Blessings.
 

Behold

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Divine providence asserts that God is in complete control of all things.

God is not in "complete control of all things".
This is proven starting with Genesis, when Adam and Eve disobyed God., which proves that God allowed them to do it.
He didnt "divinely cause them to disobey".....He allowed them to exercise their free will., just as He allows you to respond to me, or not with whatever tone, attitude, or perspective you choose to use to respond.
Its ALL up to YOU......He is not controlling what you do, or say, or think.

God is not controlling what you think, or what you choose to do next., and that is why YOU are accountable, for what you do, think, and want.
See, if God was """sovereignly"""" causing what we do, then He is to blame for our misdeeds, and that is certainly not the truth.
A.) WE ARE = accountable for OUR Choices.

So, the confusion is......a misunderstanding that is "demonic Calvinism" which produced this nonsense and deceptive theology that teaches that everything is God Caused, and in fact, .....its not.
Its only God's KNOWN.....as that is the understanding, the correct understanding of God's Foreknowledge.

Let me show you another way to see it.
The reason that Prayer changes things, is because not everything is determined by God's sovereignty, from beginning to end.

Now does God cause things.. ?
He most certainly does....but He allow ALLOWS as well.

Calvin and his dupes can't understand this, as their idea of God is skewed, twisted, and demented.
 
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Bob

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Thank you for trying.

Yes understanding how Free Will and Providence are both present is difficult, so it is worth reflecting on.

In the Book of Esther, for example, the various actors make many choices, but God uses all of those choices to bring about His plan—saving the exiled Jewish people from annihilation.

If God is not sovereign in all things, then His divine promises must be in doubt, which means we cannot completely trust Him. My faith founded on His sovereignty and that trust.

If you choose to think God’s plan for humanity is not in His control, so be it.

Peace
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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understanding how Free Will and Providence are both present is difficult

Not difficult at all unless one is listening to the devil who seeks to blind people so they cannot understand God's Word thru the leading of the Holy Spirit.




God does whatever He wants

No, actually God follows His Own Word.

If He didn't then He would be a liar.





While I personally do not believe satan is present in the world today

People like this don't believe the New Testament and believe Jesus is a liar.
 

MatthewG

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People like this don't believe the New Testament and believe Jesus is a liar.
BBJ,

Because the Book of Revelation affirms it, I wholeheartedly believe it to be true. Thank you—I appreciate you.

Warm regards, Matthew
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Because the Book of Revelation affirms it

Actually Book of Revelation does not contradict the rest of the New Testament that plainly tells us the devil is currently the god of this world. Folks have to get help from the devil to misunderstand the New Testament and it's good for them that the devil is always there to help them continue in their misunderstanding just how they like it

The befuddled ones think all the evil that is in the world today is being caused by the Lord which is what the devil tells them. :rolleyes:
 

Behold

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If you choose to think God’s plan for humanity is not in His control, so be it.

You are rewriting what im explaining to suit your "everything is presestined" Calvinism Thjeology.

Did you ever read this verse.....>>"Choose this day whom you will serve"....?

Did you ever read this verse....>"not my will but yours Father..... i will do".

Did you ever read the account of Paul's final journey, where the Holy Spirit told Him that if He went to Rome, what would happen, and he chose it anyway? (Death).

So, your idea of Chrisitanity, is that you are a puppet, on a String, have no free will, and are not in control.
But i'll tell you that what YOU Sow, you shall of that chosing ... =REAP......, because YOU CHOSE IT.... God didnt choose it for you.

Let me show you how crazy this "sovereignity" theology, gets..

See, if God causes your behavior, then all Pedophiles, All Axe Murderes, all Incestuous Parents, all God Haters, all Jew Killers, all fornicators, are being caused to do it by this "sovereign" God False Theology, Hyper Calvinisn NONSENSE.
You can continue to believe it, because you choose to believe it........However....you are not "caused" to believe it.
 

Bob

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You are rewriting what im explaining to suit your "everything is presestined" Calvinism Thjeology.

Did you ever read this verse.....>>"Choose this day whom you will serve"....?

Did you ever read this verse....>"not my will but yours Father..... i will do".

Did you ever read the account of Paul's final journey, where the Holy Spirit told Him that if He went to Rome, what would happen, and he chose it anyway? (Death).

So, your idea of Chrisitanity, is that you are a puppet, on a String, have no free will, and are not in control.
But i'll tell you that what YOU Sow, you shall of that chosing ... =REAP......, because YOU CHOSE IT.... God didnt choose it for you.

Let me show you how crazy this "sovereignity" theology, gets..

See, if God causes your behavior, then all Pedophiles, All Axe Murderes, all Incestuous Parents, all God Haters, all Jew Killers, all fornicators, are being caused to do it by this "sovereign" God False Theology, Hyper Calvinisn NONSENSE.
You can continue to believe it, because you choose to believe it........However....you are not "caused" to believe it.
You are rewriting what I am explaining to suit your “God is not sovereign” Theology.

So, your idea of Christianity is God cannot possibly have an ultimate plan for all of humanity because free will has the final say?

Everyday we make free-will choices—mine are driven by cheerful obedience to God—and how each life turns out depends on those choices. Your citation of the Apostle Paul’s choice illustrates that: He made the final choice, not God. His and our choices may support God’s plan while others thwart. Nonetheless, God‘s plan will always prevail.

In the Book of Esther, her guardian insists that she speak to the king but she resists. Mordecai then says, “Do not think that because you are in the king’s house you alone of all the Jews will escape. 14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?” In other words, no matter how you and I choose to live, God’s ultimate plan will come to fruition.

Why do you insist that I am a Calvinist or champion predestination? I do not appreciate being falsely accused, especially in this form, where we should know better.

It is no longer clear whom you are trying to convince or even why?

Peace
 

Behold

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So, your idea of Christianity is God cannot possibly have an ultimate plan for all of humanity because free will has the final say?

The Holy Bible proves that God has an "ultimate" plan for Mankind.
This Spiritual Book is a book of Progressive Revelation, whereby God shows us how He has dealt with man, ... and is now dealing with Man, and will deal with man differently in the future.

God also has a will for us, and a path for us.
For example, im called into the Ministry....so, that is God's will for me...but i didnt have to do it, exactly as Jesus didnt have to go to The Cross.
Jesus couild have called down Leigions of Angels, like He told them, and changed the PLAN.

God's will is permissive, regarding most things He would have us do......as He wants us to choose to do His will, because we love Him.
Can you be a Jonah, and refuse and still be made to do it?......Yes...but that is an exception.....that is not the rule.
Never try to use an exception to try to prove a rule.
God does not force His will on you.

Its the same as "putting on the Helmet of Salvation" or "Giving to the poor".
God has no shotgun pointed at you, no lightning bolt in each fist designed : as "do my will, you have no choice".
God allows us to choose, and in this way, = WE are always responsible for how we behave, and for what we choose to do, NEXT.

What are you going to do next?
Whatever it is, its your own choice.
 

VictoryinJesus

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God is not in "complete control of all things".
This is proven starting with Genesis, when Adam and Eve disobyed God., which proves that God allowed them to do it.
“which proves God allowed them to do it.” To allow someone to do it…allow. If I say my husband allowed me to do something…doesn’t that imply my husband has control, in allowing it?
Its ALL up to YOU......He is not controlling what you do, or say, or think.
But should He not be in control of what we do and say. When He is not in control of what we do and say…isn’t that when we get into trouble? We want God to be in control of our thoughts, actions, words so they are not spewing our own thoughts which are lower, but His thoughts, His actions, speaking His Words and not our own?
God is not controlling what you think, or what you choose to do next., and that is why YOU are accountable, for what you do, think, and want.
again “we have the mind of Christ” …do then we say not so, but our thoughts should be our own?!