In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Douggg]

Any interpretation that does not agree that the vile person meant in Daniel 11:21 is the same little horn person meant in Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, is not being consistent.

David, the little horn person in Daniel 8:9-25 is time of the end, Daniel 8:17.

The little horn person in Daniel 8:25 meets his end when he attempts to mar war on the Prince of princes - Jesus. Read the text of Daniel 8:25.

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Daniel 11:21-32 is Antiochus IV. Antiochus IV met his end in Persia. It was not time of the end.

Daniel 11:36-45 is time of the end, the little horn person of Daniel 8:9-25, who will met his end on the temple mount, when he attempts to make war on the Prince of princes - Jesus.

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Daniel 9:26 the destruction of the city and temple was by the Romans in 70ad. Daniel 9:27, the 7 year 70 week is 2000 years later at the time of the end.

Daniel 11:35 to Daniel 11:36 is the same 2000 years later at the time of the end.

Daniel 12 is time of the end. Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9.

 

[Zao is life]

Christ hasn't even been born yet.

Christ preexisted. He has always existed. What does the time of the end in the days of the four Greek kingdoms have to do with the time of the end in the age we now live in?

Nothing.

nor was there the NT yet.

Christ preexisted. He has always existed. What does the time of the end in the days of the four Greek kingdoms have to do with the age of the New Testament?

I realize why you try to coax AI into answering the questions you put to it in a way which is suitable to your own thinking.

Simply provide the undeniable proof who opened the closed vision in the days of A4E, and maybe this debate can be put to a rest.

Simply provide the undeniable proof that the vision that was sealed until the time of the end is the same as the things that John heard, which were sealed when the seven thunders uttered their voices, and then give a valid reason why the same vision needed to be sealed twice? and then this debate can be put to rest.

Christ preexisted. The vision given to Daniel was closed until the time of the end of the Greek kingdoms in the days of Antiochus IV. The wise understood at that time; and the wise understand that this is a type of the visions John saw when the seven thunders spoke, and the wise will understand when the seventh trumpet sounds.

Who will open the closed vision when the seventh trumpet sounds? Provide the undeniable proof of what you say because you seem to have forgotten whose Spirit gave Daniel the prophecy and whose Spirit seals and unseals prophecy.

 

[Davidpt]

David, the little horn person in Daniel 8:9-25 is time of the end, Daniel 8:17.

The little horn person in Daniel 8:25 meets his end when he attempts to mar war on the Prince of princes - Jesus. Read the text of Daniel 8:25.

I fully agree. I do not dispute that, the fact that the text plainly says so.

Daniel 11:21-32 is Antiochus IV. Antiochus IV met his end in Persia. It was not time of the end.

Now you need to show me where it says that in ch 11. Therefore, it is not a question of that Antiochus IV met his end in Persia. It was not time of the end. It is a question of where does it ever say that in ch. 11?

 

[Zao is life]

@Davidpt

Bother, simply provide the undeniable proof that the vision THAT DANIEL WROTE DOWN, which was sealed until "the time of the end", is the same as the things that John heard when the seven thunders uttered their voices, WHICH JOHN NEVER WROTE DOWN,

and then give a valid reason as to why, according to you, the same vision that Daniel wrote down are the voices of the seven thunders that John heard but DID NOT WRITE DOWN, and this was sealed a second time when John heard but did not write down what he heard?

Provide the undeniable proof of what you say because you seem to have forgotten whose Spirit gave Daniel the prophecy, and whose Spirit gave John the instruction not to write down what he heard, and whose Spirit seals and unseals prophecy.

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt

Bother, simply provide the undeniable proof that the vision THAT DANIEL WROTE DOWN, which was sealed until "the time of the end", is the same as the things that John heard when the seven thunders uttered their voices, WHICH JOHN NEVER WROTE DOWN,

and then give a valid reason as to why, according to you, the same vision that Daniel wrote down are the voices of the seven thunders that John heard but DID NOT WRITE DOWN, and this was sealed a second time when John heard but did not write down what he heard?

Provide the undeniable proof of what you say because you seem to have forgotten whose Spirit gave Daniel the prophecy, and whose Spirit gave John the instruction not to write down what he heard, and whose Spirit seals and unseals prophecy.

Revelation 10:1 ¶And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


One thing that seems obvious to me, we cannot divorce Daniel 12:11-12 from that of which I submitted per Revelation 10. Revelation 10 makes zero sense if we apply Daniel 12:10-11 to the days of A4E since it is during these days that pertain to verses 11-12 that Daniel 12:10 is pertaining to. It is also meaning a time, times, and an half, in verse 7, that that is what these 1290 days in verse 11 are involving.

 

[Douggg]

Now you need to show me where it says that in ch 11. Therefore, it is not a question of that Antiochus IV met his end in Persia. It was not time of the end. It is a question of where does it ever say that in ch. 11?

David, by process of elimination from what it says in Daniel 11.

The end of the king in Daniel 11:36 will be on the temple mount (the glorious holy mountain) as it says in Daniel 11.45.

Did Anticohus IV die there on the temple mount, yes or no ?

The answer is no, therefore by process of elimination, Antiochus IV is not the king of Daniel 11:36.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 10:1 ¶And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


One thing that seems obvious to me, we cannot divorce Daniel 12:11-12 from that of which I submitted per Revelation 10. Revelation 10 makes zero sense if we apply Daniel 12:10-11 to the days of A4E since it is during these days that pertain to verses 11-12 that Daniel 12:10 is pertaining to. It is also meaning a time, times, and an half, in verse 7, that that is what these 1290 days in verse 11 are involving.

You did not answer the questions.

1. What has the voices uttered by seven thunders that John did not write have to do with visions that Daniel saw, which he did write?

2. If it's the same prophecy which was sealed when Daniel wrote what was told him, why was it sealed again when John did not write what he heard?

I know why you can't answer the questions: It's because you're failing to understand (or just refuse to understand) the difference between one (former) time-period which has already played itself out in history and the prophecy which was associated with it,

and another (latter) time-period which has not yet played itself out and the prophecy associated with it

- because you think that just because the prophecy associated with the latter time period alludes to the former time-period and the prophecy that was associated with it, this means that no part of the prophecy associated with the former time-period was fulfilled during the former time-period.

 

[Douggg]

You did not answer the questions.

1. What has the voices uttered by seven thunders that John did not write have to do with visions that Daniel saw, which he did write?

2. If it's the same prophecy which was sealed when Daniel wrote what was told him, why was it sealed again when John did not write what he heard?

Zao is life, what you wrote above is very confusing as to what you mean. That is probably why you did not get any sort of answer.

I know why you can't answer the questions: It's because you're failing to understand (or just refuse to understand) the difference between one (former) time-period which has already played itself out in history and the prophecy which was associated with it,

and another (latter) time-period which has not yet played itself out and the prophecy associated with it

- because you think that just because the prophecy associated with the latter time period alludes to the former time-period and the prophecy that was associated with it, this means that no part of the prophecy associated with the former time-period was fulfilled during the former time-period.

More very confusing sentences as to what you mean.

 

[Zao is life]

Zao is life, what you wrote above is very confusing as to what you mean. That is probably why you did not get any sort of answer.

More very confusing sentences as to what you mean.

Dougg if you'd followed my posts from this post below onward you would understand what I was saying because David did - which is why he argued against it.

If you don't understand it's because you can't understand.

Paul is not said to come to his end in the book of Acts. John is not said to come to his end in the Revelation. Nowhere in the New Testament do we even read about the death of any one of no less than 12 people, each one of whom happens to have been a very, very important person.

Yet that does not stop most of us from attributing the book of Hebrews to the apostle Paul.

What's the difference between the fact that if we did not have early church tradition we would be absolutely clueless as to when, where and how any of the apostles died, and the fact that if we did not have the writings in the books of the Maccabees we would not know where, when and how Antiochus IV died? The fact is he came to his end. There's nothing "apocalyptic" about stating that someone will come to his end and that none shall help him.

Antiochus had pitched the tabernacles of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain (Mount Zion) quite a while before he met his end.

To assert that there is anything 'apocalyptic' about the statement in Daniel 11:45 is 100% a false statement and just based on the way one wants to, and chooses to interpret the sentence. IMO it's just another pointless argument. More chasing after the wind. A waste of time to even respond it's that weak an argument.

Chat GPT, does the time of the end mentioned in Daniel 8:17 have anything to do with the latter days of the four Greek kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 8:23?

ChatGPT replied,

Yes, Daniel 8:17’s reference to "the time of the end" is connected to Daniel 8:23, but with important nuances. Let's break it down:

Daniel 8:17 (NKJV):
“Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

Daniel 8:23 (NKJV):
“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.”

Connection Between the Verses:
Same Vision Context:

Both verses are part of the same vision in Daniel 8, which focuses on the ram (Media-Persia) and goat (Greece), and particularly the emergence of a “little horn” from one of the four divisions of the Greek empire (after Alexander the Great).

Daniel 8:17 sets the time frame: this vision pertains to the “time of the end.”

Daniel 8:23 refers to the “latter time” of the Greek kingdoms — particularly when evil is reaching its peak and a sinister king arises.

“Latter Time” vs. “Time of the End”:

“Latter time” in v.23 refers to the final phase of the four Greek kingdoms — likely the period leading up to and including the rise of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

“Time of the end” in v.17 is more ambiguous — it may refer to:

The end of the Greek period, particularly under Antiochus (a near-term fulfillment).

(OR)

A far-future eschatological end (a dual fulfillment view held by many scholars and interpreters).

Theological Interpretation Options:

(1) Historical View: The "time of the end" refers to the end of the Greek empire’s power, culminating in Antiochus IV’s desecration of the temple (168–165 BC).

(2) Eschatological View: The "time of the end" points forward to a future antichrist-like figure, with Antiochus as a type or foreshadowing.

(3) Dual Fulfillment: The vision has both a near fulfillment (Antiochus IV) and a far fulfillment (a final antichrist in the end times).

--- ENDF OF CHAT GPT'S REPLY ---

My own view is a combination of (2) and (3) above.

This is why I cannot understand why you chase after the wind trying to force the entire prophecy completely out of its Greek kingdoms and Antiochus IV orbit and blast it into the time of the end of our age.

Understand:

1. God knew the end from the beginning, before the beginning.
2. Daniel prophesied about the Greek kingdom, its latter days and the end of its days hundreds of years before the time of Antiochus.
3. Antiochus and the thing he did - placed an abomination of desolation in the holy place of the 2nd temple and murdered all the Jews who would not apostatize (save those who fled Judea - among whom were the Maccabees), is a biblical type of what is to come in the holy place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15).
4. Antiochus IV is not the only type of what is to come - Nebuchadnezzar - or at least the image of Nebuchadnezzar ('the image of the beast') - is another type.

Once you stop trying to force the history of already-fulfilled prophecies out of its orbit and blast it into another time-period, you will begin to understand how the words "the time of the end" exist in the overlap of two overlapping circles where each circle orbits a different period in time - because some things that have occurred, will occur again (just not in exactly the same way) and there is nothing new under the sun.

Not everything prophesied about Daniel's 4th beast was fulfilled in its time, but everything will be fulfilled in its time.

Daniel 11:36-39 will occur again - the verses also exist in the overlap. So do verses 1, & 3-10, & 13 of Daniel 12.

But verse 2 of Daniel 12 cannot be fulfilled until ITS time;

and verses 11-12 of Daniel 12 cannot be fulfilled again a second time because there is no daily sacrifice for sins to be temporarily removed again. Antiochus IV did that.

LOL. At least ChatGPT is answering the questions the way I do, and not the way you answer the questions.

So IMO you are just chasing at the wind still trying to get ChatGPT to agree with your answers.

 

[Davidpt]

David, by process of elimination from what it says in Daniel 11.

The end of the king in Daniel 11:36 will be on the temple mount (the glorious holy mountain) as it says in Daniel 11.45.

Did Anticohus IV die there on the temple mount, yes or no ?

The answer is no, therefore by process of elimination, Antiochus IV is not the king of Daniel 11:36.

Guess what, Douggg? I already fully agree that A4E in not meant in verse 36. What I don't agree with is that verses 21-35 are meaning A4E while Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, are meaning a future AC. What I do agree with, which contradicts your position, is that Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, and Daniel 11:21-45, are meaning the same person throughout, a future AC in this case.

 

[Davidpt]

You did not answer the questions.

1. What has the voices uttered by seven thunders that John did not write have to do with visions that Daniel saw, which he did write?

2. If it's the same prophecy which was sealed when Daniel wrote what was told him, why was it sealed again when John did not write what he heard?

I know why you can't answer the questions: It's because you're failing to understand (or just refuse to understand) the difference between one (former) time-period which has already played itself out in history and the prophecy which was associated with it,

and another (latter) time-period which has not yet played itself out and the prophecy associated with it

- because you think that just because the prophecy associated with the latter time period alludes to the former time-period and the prophecy that was associated with it, this means that no part of the prophecy associated with the former time-period was fulfilled during the former time-period.

Do you then take it to mean that whatever the 7 thunders uttered, it will never be revealed ever? It will remain a mystery throughout eternity?

 

[Davidpt]

Christ preexisted. He has always existed. What does the time of the end in the days of the four Greek kingdoms have to do with the time of the end in the age we now live in?


Nothing.


Christ preexisted. He has always existed. What does the time of the end in the days of the four Greek kingdoms have to do with the age of the New Testament?

I realize why you try to coax AI into answering the questions you put to it in a way which is suitable to your own thinking.



Simply provide the undeniable proof that the vision that was sealed until the time of the end is the same as the things that John heard, which were sealed when the seven thunders uttered their voices, and then give a valid reason why the same vision needed to be sealed twice? and then this debate can be put to rest.

Christ preexisted. The vision given to Daniel was closed until the time of the end of the Greek kingdoms in the days of Antiochus IV. The wise understood at that time; and the wise understand that this is a type of the visions John saw when the seven thunders spoke, and the wise will understand when the seventh trumpet sounds.

Who will open the closed vision when the seventh trumpet sounds? Provide the undeniable proof of what you say because you seem to have forgotten whose Spirit gave Daniel the prophecy and whose Spirit seals and unseals prophecy.

Everyone already agrees that Christ preexisted, except for maybe JWs, I guess.

Using your logic maybe Christ didn't even need to be born into the world to begin with since He doesn't even need to be born into the world first in order to fulfill any of these prophecies?

 

[Zao is life]

Do you then take it to mean that whatever the 7 thunders uttered, it will never be revealed ever? It will remain a mystery throughout eternity?

What are you talking about now David? Just grasping at straws?

If the vision that Daniel saw hundreds of years before the time of Christ - which was sealed when Daniel received it - is the same as the words which the seven thunders uttered circa 66 years after the resurrection of Jesus, then why did it need to be sealed again?

Why would it need to be sealed when was already sealed? Or was it revealed to John and then immediately sealed up again?

 

[Douggg]

Guess what, Douggg? I already fully agree that A4E in not meant in verse 36. What I don't agree with is that verses 21-35 are meaning A4E while Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, are meaning a future AC. What I do agree with, which contradicts your position, is that Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, and Daniel 11:21-45, are meaning the same person throughout, a future AC in this case.

Hi David, the vile person in Daniel 11:21-31 is not the future AC because in Daniel 11:30 the person is forced to turn back. That event is recorded in history as what the Romans did to Antiochus IV as Antiochus IV was headed south to make war on the Ptolemaic king of Egypt.

Daniel 11:21-31, Antiochus IV
Daniel 11:31, the historic AoD, by Antiochus IV and his troops, a statue image of Zeus.

Daniel 11:36-45, the future AC person
Daniel 8:9-25, the future AC person
Daniel 12:11-12, the end times AoD, a statue image of the AC person, set up on the temple mount by the false prophet, and later indwelt by Satan.

the three main villains in the end times:
1. little horn > prince that shall come> the AC > the revealed man of sin > the beast king.......(one person, 5 stages)
2. the false prophet
3. Satan

 

[Douggg]

Why would it need to be sealed when was already sealed? Or was it revealed to John and then immediately sealed up again?

I think what the seven thunders said in Revelation 10:4 contained the name of the (AC) beast person. John would have seen the name of the beast all through Revelation 10-19. But because John was told in Revelation 10:4 to not write down what the seven thunders said, John never wrote down what the name of the (AC) beast person was - anywhere in Revelation.

Instead, the name is kept a mystery, to be solved by counting the number of the beast....

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Zao is life]

I think what the seven thunders said in Revelation 10:4 contained the name of the (AC) beast person. John would have seen the name of the beast all through Revelation 10-19. But because John was told in Revelation 10:4 to not write down what the seven thunders said, John never wrote down what the name of the (AC) beast person was - anywhere in Revelation.

Instead, the name is kept a mystery, to be solved by counting the number of the beast....

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Hey Dougg.

There's absolutely no indication as to what the seven thunders uttered. It's sealed and guessing is foolish because it will only be revealed when the seventh trumpet is about to sound.

Solomon had more wisdom than any human being except Christ, and he is associated with the number 666.

The only human being to have more wisdom is Christ Himself.

The beast is associated with 666, and it's a guess (but not a bad guess) to say that he will have the wisdom of Solomon or even greater, and claim to be Christ.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Maybe the beast will be the one to calculate the number of the beast. Ever thought of that?

If the wisdom is not of Christ, then it is of man.

 

[Douggg]

Hey Dougg.

There's absolutely no indication as to what the seven thunders uttered. It's sealed and guessing is foolish because it will only be revealed when the seventh trumpet is about to sound.

Solomon had more wisdom than any human being except Christ, and he is associated with the number 666.

The only human being to have more wisdom is Christ Himself.

The beast is associated with 666, and it's a guess (but not a bad guess) to say that he will have the wisdom of Solomon or even greater, and claim to be Christ.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Maybe the beast will be the one to calculate the number of the beast. Ever thought of that?

If the wisdom is not of Christ, then it is of man.

If you notice, John does not mention the name of the beast (person) anywhere in Revelation. But in the visions shown to John, he must have seen the name on people's right hand and foreheads. But John was told not to reveal exactly what the name of the beast is. That's one reason, imo, that John was told not to write down what the seven thunders said - because apparently the seven thunders uttered the exact name of the beast person.

 

[Davidpt]

Hey Dougg.

There's absolutely no indication as to what the seven thunders uttered. It's sealed and guessing is foolish because it will only be revealed when the seventh trumpet is about to sound.

Solomon had more wisdom than any human being except Christ, and he is associated with the number 666.

The only human being to have more wisdom is Christ Himself.

The beast is associated with 666, and it's a guess (but not a bad guess) to say that he will have the wisdom of Solomon or even greater, and claim to be Christ.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Maybe the beast will be the one to calculate the number of the beast. Ever thought of that?

If the wisdom is not of Christ, then it is of man.

Since your point in regards to the 7 thunders is apparently going over my head, let's try a different route.


Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Explain to us why none of the following can explain any of these things? Explain to us why the NT can't shed light on the OT in this case?

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Compare with 2 Thessalonians2:3-4.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There come a falling away = in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full.
, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. = verse 4.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition = Daniel 8:23.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 19:19-20 = he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

But instead of Scripture interpreting Scripture, instead of that the NT sheds light on the OT, you want Daniel 8-23-25 to be about Antiochus 4 E

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

David, what I think it means "when the transgressors are come to the full", it talking about the ten kings that the little horn person will be over are in place.

I think it will be possible, not long from now, to identify who those ten kings (leaders) and the little horn person is.

 

[Zao is life]

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Explain to us why none of the following can exlain any of these things? Explain to us why the NT can't shed light on the OT in this case?

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full

Compare with 2 Thessalonians2:3-4.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There come a falling away = in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full.

in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full = verse 4.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition = Daniel 8:23.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 19:19-20 = he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

But instead of Scripture interpreting Scripture, instead of that the NT sheds light on the OT, you want Daniel 8-23-25 to be about Antiochus 4 E

LOL. No you cannot ask me questions (though I can answer them) when you have not answered mine.

Why did the vision which was sealed hundreds of years before the days of Antiochus need to be sealed again when John heard seven thunders uttering their voices?

And since John heard what they said and was about to write, how is it that what was sealed in the days of Daniel was briefly unsealed and revealed to John and sealed again and will only be unsealed when the 7th trumpet is about to sound?

First explain what I asked you to before you shoot out demands that I explain things you want me to.