Watching and Preparing

[Randy Kluth]

Randy said:
In my view, Jesus was using "watching" as a synonym for "being ready." If we "watch" we are in fact getting "ready" as Jesus used the term.

But as you say, these concepts are not necessarily the same unless used in a context that joins them. In this case, "watching" is "being ready."

But outside of how Jesus is using "watching," it can fall woefully short of "being ready." For example, I could be engaged in all kinds of eschatological preparation by drawing up prophetic maps, interpreting current events, and even selling some of my material belongings. But if we are not walking in step with the Lord spiritually we are not really "being ready." We are just engaging in a "prophetic watch."

Sentry duty is not necessarily "getting ready." To get ready properly we have to be walking with the Lord, and not just engaging our minds in developing prophetic calendars and schemes. To try to anticipate the signs and times in this way goes against what Jesus specifically said regarding anticipating his Return.

We are *not* to know times and seasons as our main focus in order to get ready for his Coming. Rather, we are to be engaged in the ministry we are called to presently in specific preparation for that event. We bring the message of warning to the world first, and then comes the end.

What Jesus told his Disciples of in the Olivet Discourse was a different context from his Coming, though Jesus compared these events. But in the case of the fall of the Temple, Jesus warned his Disciples that the time for that to happen had already come, that it would happen in *their generation."

But by contrast Jesus' Return is going to follow a long Jewish Exile and Diaspora that necessarily precedes his Coming. He will not Come until after they have been sent into Exile for the longest punishment in the history of the Jews. Only then will he Return.

In the meantime it is our duty to continue with this job of testifying to the Gospel and warning the world of coming Judgment. He will not come until God sees fit to do so.

To be ready for that event we are now given opportunity to relay the message that we can be converted spiritually in order to repent and be spared God's hostility towards Sin. To be "ready" therefore is to be *converted* and to remain true to this conversion spiritually and morally.
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Someone said:
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.
Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Randy said:
I agree that there is a difference between knowing by senses, and thus preparing, and knowing intellectually. But they can also be the same thing. This would be a distinction without a difference.

That is, I can intellectually assent to Jesus' Coming and at the same time recognize with my eyes physical evidence that his Coming is near, though that is not yet possible--we see nothing that suggests he is coming in the immediate moment.

What we must recognize is the difference between the need to physically prepare for and physically see things that are happening now, and things that are distant and in the future. The things that are happening now are our priority, and not the distant things.

I suggest that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was comparing the relatively imminent judgment against the Jews in 70 AD and the 2nd Coming Jesus' Disciples were asking him about. The one event was already up on the calendar and had to be physically prepared for. The other event was distant and not important to try to physically prepare for or anticipate. Distant things are subject to "times and seasons" that are under the Father's care, and not our present concern (Acts 1.7).

We prepare for that distant event, ie Christ's Coming strictly by remaining ready spiritually, as always, continuing to walk in our converted lifestyle, remaining true to Christ. If we remain true to him today we are ready today, even if the event remains a long ways off.

We cannot prepare for that event physically but it is not yet of curremt concern. It belongs to the "times and seasons" category that we are not to try to anticipate and physically see or prepare for.

The lesson is, I think, to be engaged in things that are happening now, or about to happen imminently, just as Jesus' Disciples had to prepare for the relatively imminent event of 70 AD. The things that are far off we don't need to speculate on because our higher priority is in doing things now that must precede Christ's Coming.

We must preach the Gospel of conversion and we must warn the world of God's judgment against their Sin. This is our priority and must precede the actual time of Christ's Return.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes amen Randy

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes amen Randy

Hey Marty, I asked the same question, and gave the same ideas on your site (inviting others to join).

Home | Areopagus

Visit our forum at: areopagus.proboards.com

areopagus.proboards.com

 

[Marty fox]

Hey Marty, I asked the same question, and gave the same ideas on your site (inviting others to join).

Home | Areopagus

Visit our forum at: areopagus.proboards.com

areopagus.proboards.com

Great thanks Randy

 

[Scott Downey]

Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus in saying the above proves His people on earth will be eyewitnesses of all these things taking place.

With technology today we can witness these things happening anywhere a camera records them worldwide.
And if in our town we can see them with our own eyes, implying we will know of them, be aware personally.
That is a part of being watchful.
If we are aware and watchful, then that Day will not sneak up on us and take us unawares, we will have been prepared for those things to happen or not.
Paul also said 'as you see the DAY approaching', that DAY is none other than the return of Christ.
Paul and Christ have taught the same thing.
That 'you' would be ourselves and those in our immediate church, the brethren.
If we ever do experience such, surely it will be talked about by many people.

Hebrews 10, (IMO, Paul wrote Hebrews)

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[Scott Downey]

The patient expectation of the saints, is the coming of the Lord.

James 5
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.

 

[MatthewG]

I'm prepared for death. It is inevitable.

 

[HappyOma]

Randy said:
In my view, Jesus was using "watching" as a synonym for "being ready." If we "watch" we are in fact getting "ready" as Jesus used the term.

But as you say, these concepts are not necessarily the same unless used in a context that joins them. In this case, "watching" is "being ready."

But outside of how Jesus is using "watching," it can fall woefully short of "being ready." For example, I could be engaged in all kinds of eschatological preparation by drawing up prophetic maps, interpreting current events, and even selling some of my material belongings. But if we are not walking in step with the Lord spiritually we are not really "being ready." We are just engaging in a "prophetic watch."

Sentry duty is not necessarily "getting ready." To get ready properly we have to be walking with the Lord, and not just engaging our minds in developing prophetic calendars and schemes. To try to anticipate the signs and times in this way goes against what Jesus specifically said regarding anticipating his Return.

We are *not* to know times and seasons as our main focus in order to get ready for his Coming. Rather, we are to be engaged in the ministry we are called to presently in specific preparation for that event. We bring the message of warning to the world first, and then comes the end.

What Jesus told his Disciples of in the Olivet Discourse was a different context from his Coming, though Jesus compared these events. But in the case of the fall of the Temple, Jesus warned his Disciples that the time for that to happen had already come, that it would happen in *their generation."

But by contrast Jesus' Return is going to follow a long Jewish Exile and Diaspora that necessarily precedes his Coming. He will not Come until after they have been sent into Exile for the longest punishment in the history of the Jews. Only then will he Return.

In the meantime it is our duty to continue with this job of testifying to the Gospel and warning the world of coming Judgment. He will not come until God sees fit to do so.

To be ready for that event we are now given opportunity to relay the message that we can be converted spiritually in order to repent and be spared God's hostility towards Sin. To be "ready" therefore is to be *converted* and to remain true to this conversion spiritually and morally.
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Someone said:
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.
Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Randy said:
I agree that there is a difference between knowing by senses, and thus preparing, and knowing intellectually. But they can also be the same thing. This would be a distinction without a difference.

That is, I can intellectually assent to Jesus' Coming and at the same time recognize with my eyes physical evidence that his Coming is near, though that is not yet possible--we see nothing that suggests he is coming in the immediate moment.

What we must recognize is the difference between the need to physically prepare for and physically see things that are happening now, and things that are distant and in the future. The things that are happening now are our priority, and not the distant things.

I suggest that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was comparing the relatively imminent judgment against the Jews in 70 AD and the 2nd Coming Jesus' Disciples were asking him about. The one event was already up on the calendar and had to be physically prepared for. The other event was distant and not important to try to physically prepare for or anticipate. Distant things are subject to "times and seasons" that are under the Father's care, and not our present concern (Acts 1.7).

We prepare for that distant event, ie Christ's Coming strictly by remaining ready spiritually, as always, continuing to walk in our converted lifestyle, remaining true to Christ. If we remain true to him today we are ready today, even if the event remains a long ways off.

We cannot prepare for that event physically but it is not yet of curremt concern. It belongs to the "times and seasons" category that we are not to try to anticipate and physically see or prepare for.

The lesson is, I think, to be engaged in things that are happening now, or about to happen imminently, just as Jesus' Disciples had to prepare for the relatively imminent event of 70 AD. The things that are far off we don't need to speculate on because our higher priority is in doing things now that must precede Christ's Coming.

We must preach the Gospel of conversion and we must warn the world of God's judgment against their Sin. This is our priority and must precede the actual time of Christ's Return.

Why do you make a distinction between the "Second Coming" and His coming in judgment in A. D. 70 against those apostate Jews He condemned in Matthew 23?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Christians make this distinction because they have a faulty understanding of the nature of His coming. That is, they wrongly believe that He was to come "visibly and bodily." Because that has not happened, they adhere to a yet future coming of Christ. But what is the "like manner" of Acts 1? You would claim that it is His visible body leaving the earth. However, I contend that a proper understanding of the OT use of the word "clouds" defines the NATURE of Christ's ascension in relationship to His return. He left in "clouds"; He was to return in "clouds."

Jesus placed His cloud-coming in the generation of those very disciples standing there with Him (Mat. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). Furthermore, He told those apostate Jews of His own day (whom He condemned in Matthew 23) that THEY would see Him "COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). I submit that the "like manner" of Acts 1 involves the clouds of glory, majesty, and authority. Jesus prayed to the Father to have that glory restored to Him in His high priestly prayer John 17). Acts 1 is the fulfillment of that. He left with all of His splendor and power and glory restored to Him and in THAT nature and authority He was to return. And He did--in A. D. 70. At that time, Caiaphas and the Jewish leaders ("every eye"), all of the "tribes of the land," and even those "who pierced Him" SAW Him coming "on the clouds of heaven with His mighty angels."

Why did He come a second time (besides to bring promised judgment)? We must consider the earthly priesthood and its patterns. When Christ died on the Cross, He said "It is finished." What was finished? The blood of the sacrificial lamb was slain. But that was not the end of His priestly duties in the Atonement. The blood had to be take to the heavenly Holy of Holies and sprinkled on the heavenly altar AND the high priest (Jesus) had to exit the Most Holy Place in completion of the work of salvation. That did not happen at His first coming. Because of HIs advent and death on the cross for sins, believers of the first century were "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." That sealing ensured their standing with God, nothing could break it. However, they were not yet fitted for heaven. They still died and went to Hades to await resurrection (i.e., full restoration to fellowship).

We see this in Jesus' words in Luke 21. He told those disciples right there with Him that when they saw all of those things begin to happen, they were to look up. Why? Because then THEIR "salvation" drew near. In A. D. 70, the high priest (Jesus) exited the heavenly Holy of Holies bringing full salvation to those sealed by the Holy Spirit. Paul also spoke of this in his letter to the believers in Rome. He told them that "the night was far spent" and "the day was at hand." It was time for THEM to awaken from their sleep. Why? Because in their day, their salvation was "nearer" than when they "first believed" (Rom. 13). When they first believed, they were sealed. But full salvation was "near" to them.

The writer of Hebrews makes a distinction between what was accomplished at His first coming and what needed to be done at His Second. He wrote that Christ came the first time "to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 10:26). BUT, He would "appear a SECOND time, NOT TO DEAL WITH SIN, but for salvation." He dealt with sin at the cross as the sacrificial lamb; He came again in A. D. 70 to bring the full salvation that came from His exiting the Heavenly Holy of Holies as a result of His completion of full atonement before God for those who believe. It was THIS that brought "resurrection"--not physical bodies popping up out of their graves, but the restoration of full and complete fellowship with God forever.

The writer of Hebrews went on to express the timing for that Second Coming for salvation when he wrote (shortly before A. D. 70): "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). He came the first time and died for sins (ca. A.D. 30) and He came a Second time to complete the work of salvation given to Him by the Father (A. D. 70).

The Second Coming is over.

 

[HappyOma]

The patient expectation of the saints, is the coming of the Lord.

James 5
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.

To whom is this written, Scott? WE are NOT the YE. James is telling THEM to be patient "until the coming of the Lord." Are those very people still here among us being patient? Of course not. Theu were to be patient because He was coming to THEM. They were to establish their hearts because in their day, "the coming of the Lord" was at hand." It was near in their day. The Son of Man was then "about to come in the glory of the Father with His mighty angels" to bring the judgment against those apostate Jews of that day whom He condemned in Matthew 23 (Mat. 16:27, 28).

This judgment coming is evident in verse 9--"The judge is AT THE DOOR." The judge was at the door in their day. The coming of the Lord is not near in our day and the judge is not now standing at the door. This was not for us.

 

[Scott Downey]

To whom is this written, Scott? WE are NOT the YE. James is telling THEM to be patient "until the coming of the Lord." Are those very people still here among us being patient? Of course not. Theu were to be patient because He was coming to THEM. They were to establish their hearts because in their day, "the coming of the Lord" was at hand." It was near in their day. The Son of Man was then "about to come in the glory of the Father with His mighty angels" to bring the judgment against those apostate Jews of that day whom He condemned in Matthew 23 (Mat. 16:27, 28).

This judgment coming is evident in verse 9--"The judge is AT THE DOOR." The judge was at the door in their day. The coming of the Lord is not near in our day and the judge is not now standing at the door. This was not for us.

I believe the second coming is still future.

 

[HappyOma]

Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus in saying the above proves His people on earth will be eyewitnesses of all these things taking place.

With technology today we can witness these things happening anywhere a camera records them worldwide.
And if in our town we can see them with our own eyes, implying we will know of them, be aware personally.
That is a part of being watchful.
If we are aware and watchful, then that Day will not sneak up on us and take us unawares, we will have been prepared for those things to happen or not.
Paul also said 'as you see the DAY approaching', that DAY is none other than the return of Christ.
Paul and Christ have taught the same thing.
That 'you' would be ourselves and those in our immediate church, the brethren.
If we ever do experience such, surely it will be talked about by many people.

Hebrews 10, (IMO, Paul wrote Hebrews)

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

To whom is Matthew 13:29 written? Who is being addressed in Matthew 24:33. Scott, WE are NOT the YE. THEY were to told to watch so that day did not take them by surprise.

Also, the writer of Hebrews was admonishing those of HIS day to not forsake "the assambling" of THEMSELVES "together." When he wrote "and so much the more as YOU see the Day approaching," he was speaking to those of HIS day. That day was approaching THEM. Continue on to verse 37 where you will find the timing of THAT DAY. "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY." It's been two thousand years and people are still waiting. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick" (Prov. 13:12).

All scripture was written FOR us, but not all scripture is written TO us. It is essential to proper interpretation and understanding that we learn the difference.

 

[Scott Downey]

Even so in their day 2000 years ago, Peter warned scoffers were coming saying where is the promise of His coming? Because nothing has changed.
And since when Jesus comes, it is the Day of the Lord, we will see big changes as in new earth, new heavens, no more evil.
And that has not yet happened.

2 Peter 3

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[HappyOma]

I believe the second coming is still future.

You wrote: "I believe the second coming is still future." That is not a valid argument, Scott. That is an opinion. Could you please deal with the Scriptures, beginning with those I gave you in their CONTEXT? Thank you.

 

[Scott Downey]

To whom is Matthew 13:29 written? Who is being addressed in Matthew 24:33. Scott, WE are NOT the YE. THEY were to told to watch so that day did not take them by surprise.

Also, the writer of Hebrews was admonishing those of HIS day to not forsake "the assambling" of THEMSELVES "together." When he wrote "and so much the more as YOU see the Day approaching," he was speaking to those of HIS day. That day was approaching THEM. Continue on to verse 37 where you will find the timing of THAT DAY. "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY." It's been two thousand years and people are still waiting. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick" (Prov. 13:12).

All scripture was written FOR us, but not all scripture is written TO us. It is essential to proper interpretation and understanding that we learn the difference.

Jesus has not come back yet.
When Jesus returns we get the final Day of Judgment and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

 

[HappyOma]

Even so in their day 2000 years ago, Peter warned scoffers were coming saying where is the promise of His coming? Because nothing has changed.
And since when Jesus comes, it is the Day of the Lord, we will see big changes as in new earth, new heavens, no more evil.
And that has not yet happened.

2 Peter 3

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Scott, you have not presented these passages in context. WE are not being addressed by Peter--those of HIS day were. It is imperative that the student of God's Word first establish the SETTING of a passage before he seeks to understand it. We must answer these questions: who Who wrote it; to whom was this written; why was it written; when was it written, where was it written, etc.

Peter clearly establishes that he is writing to the "beloved" of his day. It is, in fact, the second time that he has written. He seeks to stir up THEIR memories. THEY were in the "last days" (see Heb. 1). THEY were being ridiculed by those who knew that THEY believed the coming of the Lord was near. Because THEY expected the Lord's soon return to them, the scoffers of THEIR day mocked them and asked THEM where the evidence was. The words of verse 8 give THEM assurance that God is true to His Word. He would do what He promised at the time He ordained for it. This is NOT saying that a thousand years can be a day and a day can be a thousand years. Notice the significant words "WITH THE LORD" and "AS."

Jesus and His inspired writers placed His return in THEIR lifetime. Those to whom Peter is writing understood that. They knew He was coming soon to THEM--as He had promised and as the Apostles had promised. THEY were becoming impatient because of the harrassment from the scoffers of their day. Peter tells them to chill--God is faithful. He said He would come to you in YOUR generation, so He will. YOU be patient.

Also, if one rightly understands prophetic language, he will see clearly that Peter is not speaking of the literal dissolving of the earth. In OT prophetic language, "heavens and earth" are often NOT references to the physical. The word "elements" (stoicheia) is NEVER used of the chemical, physical make up of the earth. It occurs 7 times in the NT and always refers to the nontangible ("principles"). Please look them up and study them in CONTEXT (Gal. 4:3, 4; Col.2:8, 20; Heb. 5:12; 2 Pet. 2:10, 12).

Peter's words in 2 Peter 2:10ff deal with the coming destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A. D. 70. At that time, the "principles" and teachings of Judaism and the Mosaic Age were destroyed. When the Romans burned the temple and the city, the fires were so "FERVENT" that the gold melted from the walls. His readers knew that they were living in that day. In light of what was about to come upon them in their lifetime, Peter admonishes them to consider what kind of people they should be "in holy conduct and godliness." That is the CONTEXT.

 

[HappyOma]

Jesus has not come back yet.
When Jesus returns we get the final Day of Judgment and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Because He has not come back in the wrong way that you demand that He come, you take liberty to ignore time statements and the historical settings in which they are found? Where does Peter speak of "the final Day of Judgment"? Second Peter 3:10-13 has nothing to do with some end-of-the-world apocalyptic event. I have written to you already about the meaning of "elements" (stoicheia). As I stated, they are NOT about the chemical make up of the earth. That word is NEVER used that way. Again, Peter is NOT writing to US.

 

[HappyOma]

Randy said:
In my view, Jesus was using "watching" as a synonym for "being ready." If we "watch" we are in fact getting "ready" as Jesus used the term.

But as you say, these concepts are not necessarily the same unless used in a context that joins them. In this case, "watching" is "being ready."

But outside of how Jesus is using "watching," it can fall woefully short of "being ready." For example, I could be engaged in all kinds of eschatological preparation by drawing up prophetic maps, interpreting current events, and even selling some of my material belongings. But if we are not walking in step with the Lord spiritually we are not really "being ready." We are just engaging in a "prophetic watch."

Sentry duty is not necessarily "getting ready." To get ready properly we have to be walking with the Lord, and not just engaging our minds in developing prophetic calendars and schemes. To try to anticipate the signs and times in this way goes against what Jesus specifically said regarding anticipating his Return.

We are *not* to know times and seasons as our main focus in order to get ready for his Coming. Rather, we are to be engaged in the ministry we are called to presently in specific preparation for that event. We bring the message of warning to the world first, and then comes the end.

What Jesus told his Disciples of in the Olivet Discourse was a different context from his Coming, though Jesus compared these events. But in the case of the fall of the Temple, Jesus warned his Disciples that the time for that to happen had already come, that it would happen in *their generation."

But by contrast Jesus' Return is going to follow a long Jewish Exile and Diaspora that necessarily precedes his Coming. He will not Come until after they have been sent into Exile for the longest punishment in the history of the Jews. Only then will he Return.

In the meantime it is our duty to continue with this job of testifying to the Gospel and warning the world of coming Judgment. He will not come until God sees fit to do so.

To be ready for that event we are now given opportunity to relay the message that we can be converted spiritually in order to repent and be spared God's hostility towards Sin. To be "ready" therefore is to be *converted* and to remain true to this conversion spiritually and morally.
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Someone said:
There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.
Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Randy said:
I agree that there is a difference between knowing by senses, and thus preparing, and knowing intellectually. But they can also be the same thing. This would be a distinction without a difference.

That is, I can intellectually assent to Jesus' Coming and at the same time recognize with my eyes physical evidence that his Coming is near, though that is not yet possible--we see nothing that suggests he is coming in the immediate moment.

What we must recognize is the difference between the need to physically prepare for and physically see things that are happening now, and things that are distant and in the future. The things that are happening now are our priority, and not the distant things.

I suggest that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was comparing the relatively imminent judgment against the Jews in 70 AD and the 2nd Coming Jesus' Disciples were asking him about. The one event was already up on the calendar and had to be physically prepared for. The other event was distant and not important to try to physically prepare for or anticipate. Distant things are subject to "times and seasons" that are under the Father's care, and not our present concern (Acts 1.7).

We prepare for that distant event, ie Christ's Coming strictly by remaining ready spiritually, as always, continuing to walk in our converted lifestyle, remaining true to Christ. If we remain true to him today we are ready today, even if the event remains a long ways off.

We cannot prepare for that event physically but it is not yet of curremt concern. It belongs to the "times and seasons" category that we are not to try to anticipate and physically see or prepare for.

The lesson is, I think, to be engaged in things that are happening now, or about to happen imminently, just as Jesus' Disciples had to prepare for the relatively imminent event of 70 AD. The things that are far off we don't need to speculate on because our higher priority is in doing things now that must precede Christ's Coming.

We must preach the Gospel of conversion and we must warn the world of God's judgment against their Sin. This is our priority and must precede the actual time of Christ's Return.

What "things must precede Christ's Coming"? Please give Scripture in context.

 

[HappyOma]

The patient expectation of the saints, is the coming of the Lord.

James 5
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.

WE were not told to be patient, Scott! Those to whom James was then writing were told to wait "patiently." Why? Because the COMING of the Lord was THEN "at hand"--in THEIR day. Those words do not mean "at any time." They are never used that way in the NT. AT HAND is always used to mean SOON. He was coming soon in Peter's day and He came. You and many other Christians can't see that because you have a false understanding of the NATURE of His coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What "things must precede Christ's Coming"? Please give Scripture in context.

I can give Scriptures, but allow me to explain what I believe 1st? The things to happen in Jesus' generation were different than the things to happen in the last generation. In Jesus' generation his disciples were warned to expect "Birthpains" as a prelude to and sign for the ultimate destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

As for the 2nd Coming at the end of the age, we would expect Israel to be back in her place again, per Ezekiel 37. Otherwise, how can Jesus return to the Jewish People unless it is to the country of Israel? So the restoration of Israel to the Jewish People is indeed a sign that precedes the 2nd Coming.

But we learn from Dan 7 that the Little Horn must precede Jesus' Return for 3.5 years, and reign over 7 kings and 10 countries in Europe. This is the territory of the original 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire.

Rome is in Europe. Rome was a bilateral empire, East and West. And Europe is identified in such a bilateral way even today--Eastern Europe and Western Europe. This precedes the end of the age and Christ's 2nd Coming, in my opinion.

So, if you wish to read from Scriptures what preceded the 70 AD event, read the Olivet Discourse and consider the "birthpains" Jesus listed. And if you wish to read the basis for the signs preceding the end of the age, read Dan 7 and the book of Revelation regarding the last days fulfillment of the 4th Beast.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why do you make a distinction between the "Second Coming" and His coming in judgment in A. D. 70 against those apostate Jews He condemned in Matthew 23?

In the discussion where Jesus discussed this, particularly Luke's version, he indicated that the temple's destruction would precipitate a long and terrible "great tribulation" for the Jewish people before the end would come. This would be the worst exile and punishment the Jews had ever known, which is certainly true of the "Jewish Diaspora" of the NT age!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many Christians make this distinction because they have a faulty understanding of the nature of His coming. That is, they wrongly believe that He was to come "visibly and bodily."

Jesus recognized that some Jews misread his Coming, which in their mind was associated with his Kingdom. They thought that if Jesus came as Messiah, then the proof would be in his establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. Wrong!

The Jewish nation could not enter into the Kingdom immediately because the bad eggs had to be taken out. But God did not want to judge all Israel immediately, which would lead to their annihilation as a nation. Instead, he let them go off--as a nation--into the wilderness of the Jewish Diaspora, with relatively few individuals coming to salvation. This allowed for time to reach out to other nations who had yet to begin a believing nations. And in the meanwhile, Jews would get saved, one by one.

Because that has not happened, they adhere to a yet future coming of Christ. But what is the "like manner" of Acts 1? You would claim that it is His visible body leaving the earth. However, I contend that a proper understanding of the OT use of the word "clouds" defines the NATURE of Christ's ascension in relationship to His return. He left in "clouds"; He was to return in "clouds."

Jesus will come back to the Jews just as he left the Jews. He will come to the nation of Israel, as well as to all nations of faith who wish to repent and submit to him.

Why did He come a second time (besides to bring promised judgment)?

When Jesus comes again, he will indeed judge the nation of Israel. But by then he will have established a definite remnant of believers among the Jews in Israel. So he will bring about a complete reformation of the nation at his Coming, returning the nation to "chosen" status along with all the nations who do likewise.

We must consider the earthly priesthood and its patterns. When Christ died on the Cross, He said "It is finished." What was finished? The blood of the sacrificial lamb was slain. But that was not the end of His priestly duties in the Atonement. The blood had to be take to the heavenly Holy of Holies and sprinkled on the heavenly altar AND the high priest (Jesus) had to exit the Most Holy Place in completion of the work of salvation. That did not happen at His first coming. Because of HIs advent and death on the cross for sins, believers of the first century were "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." That sealing ensured their standing with God, nothing could break it. However, they were not yet fitted for heaven. They still died and went to Hades to await resurrection (i.e., full restoration to fellowship).

I disagree. The work on the cross was finished when on the cross Jesus said, "It is finished." Nothing to bring to heaven except himself where he now stands before the Father on our behalf.

We see this in Jesus' words in Luke 21. He told those disciples right there with Him that when they saw all of those things begin to happen, they were to look up. Why? Because then THEIR "salvation" drew near.

We look to Jesus because in troubled times he is our redemption. We are always to look to him for guidance in treacherous times and even in good times.

The writer of Hebrews makes a distinction between what was accomplished at His first coming and what needed to be done at His Second. He wrote that Christ came the first time "to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 10:26). BUT, He would "appear a SECOND time, NOT TO DEAL WITH SIN, but for salvation."

When Jesus comes the 2nd time it will be to *bodily* save us, by redeeming us from these fallen carnal bodies. It will be the resurrection and glorification. Currently, we have a down payment on our Eternal Life, which is the life we have presently through Jesus. It is not, however, yet capable of bodily redemption. That awaits the 2nd Coming.

He dealt with sin at the cross as the sacrificial lamb; He came again in A. D. 70 to bring the full salvation that came from His exiting the Heavenly Holy of Holies as a result of His completion of full atonement before God for those who believe. It was THIS that brought "resurrection"--not physical bodies popping up out of their graves, but the restoration of full and complete fellowship with God forever.

The writer of Hebrews went on to express the timing for that Second Coming for salvation when he wrote (shortly before A. D. 70): "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). He came the first time and died for sins (ca. A.D. 30) and He came a Second time to complete the work of salvation given to Him by the Father (A. D. 70).

The Second Coming is over.

No, we are not yet physically redeemed. We aren't raised from the dead. We aren't yet glorified.