In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[TribulationSigns]

You don't make timeline charts and diagrams because you can't. You don't have the computer graphics skills. And don't care to learn.

Oh, you clearly don’t know who you’re talking to. I’ve got 24 years of experience in web and graphic design, plus a BA in Art and Design. I work with Adobe Suite like it's second nature. Trust me—your design skills aren’t even in the same zip code.

And let’s be honest—you weren’t really paying attention. If you can’t grasp the Word of God, what makes you think you’d understand the charts anyway? Why should I waste my time spoon-feeding you? I’ve got bigger things to focus on—like launching my new website (with its own forum, by the way), where all of my design work will be showcased. Lord willing.

And you are not able to place events on a timeline in relation to other events, nor fit the fifteen end times times frames given in the bible in proper relation to each other.

And yet you think you're the authority on placing end times events on a timeline? Your entire framework is built on false doctrine from the start—so of course it's a mess. You can’t fit the fifteen timeframes together properly because your foundation is already off. Facts! When the foundation is flawed, everything that follows collapses.

You lack understanding of prophetic structure and biblical symbolism.

Study this critical path (the red line) chart I made. Take note of the placement of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.



View attachment 66680

Yawning.. Really, it's based on the false doctrine of 7 years of premillennialism doctrine. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Douggg]

Oh, you clearly don’t know who you’re talking to. I’ve got 24 years of experience in web and graphic design, plus a BA in Art and Design. I work with Adobe Suite like it's second nature. Trust me—your design skills aren’t even in the same zip code.

Okay, thanks for the information. So make some timeline charts and post them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Okay, thanks for the information. So make some timeline charts and post them.

I will. Not here. :-)

 

[Wish-it]

First I presented to ChatGPT my view, my thoughts, and how and why I am arriving at what I do. IOW, I wasn't asking ChatGPT questions. I was presenting my view and my thoughts with the expectation that ChatGPT might help me frame this better. Which is exactly what happened when ChatGPT asked me this---Would You Like Help Framing This More Formally? Thus below.

Still my view still my thoughts, thus I am able to think and reason for myself and that I don't require others having to do my thinking and reasoning for me. I'm simply using ChatGPT as a tool to express my view and thoughts more clearly. That is not even remotely the same as me using ChatGPT as my source of theology, like some in the past have falsely accused me of doing.

Daniel 8 and 11: A Consistent Prophetic Vision of the Future Antichrist

Thesis:
The "little horn" in Daniel 8 and the "vile person" in Daniel 11 are not references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E), but to a future Antichrist. Interpreting one as Antiochus and the other as the Antichrist is inconsistent. Furthermore, Daniel 8 explicitly connects the vision to "the time of the end" and portrays a scope and impact far beyond what A4E ever fulfilled. The vision speaks not of the type (Antiochus), but of the antitype (Antichrist).

I. Consistency Demands the Little Horn and the Vile Person Are the Same Figure

• Daniel 8 and 11 describe parallel figures: Both desecrate the temple, stop sacrifices, and persecute God's people.
• Therefore, they must refer to the same person or the same prophetic role.
• To interpret the little horn (Daniel 8) as the Antichrist but the vile person (Daniel 11) as Antiochus IV is logically inconsistent.
• A consistent reading requires that if one is future, the other is also future.

II. Daniel 8 Is Clearly Linked to the Time of the End

• Daniel 8:17, 19, 23 all explicitly tie the vision to "the time of the end."
• The phrase cannot reasonably be limited to a past event in the 2nd century BC—it denotes a future, eschatological context.
• Therefore, the events of Daniel 8 have not yet been fulfilled.
• If this chapter refers to the end, then it cannot primarily be about Antiochus IV.

III. The Vision Is Sealed Until the End—Ruling Out a 2nd Century Fulfillment

• Daniel 8:26 says the vision is to be "shut up" or "sealed" until the time of the end.
• A sealed vision implies delayed relevance and understanding—not something fulfilled 350 years after Daniel’s time.
• If the vision was about A4E and the Maccabean crisis, it would not need to be sealed.
• Thus, the vision’s true fulfillment lies in the distant future, not in intertestamental history.

IV. Daniel’s Reaction Proves the Vision Surpassed Historical Understanding

• Daniel 8:27 – "And I, Daniel, fainted, and was sick certain days… I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it."
• This extreme reaction—physical collapse, illness, astonishment, and confusion—indicates a vision of profound mystery and gravity.
• It's implausible that Daniel would respond this way to a vision of a political tyrant desecrating the temple centuries later—something well within his theological framework (cf. the Babylonian destruction of the temple).
• Only a truly cosmic and eschatological vision—a revelation of the final Antichrist—justifies this depth of impact.

V. The Book of Maccabees Is Historical; Daniel Is Prophetic

• The events involving Antiochus IV, found in 1 and 2 Maccabees, serve as the type—a foreshadowing.
• Daniel, by contrast, is unveiling the antitype—the ultimate fulfillment of that typology.
• To equate Daniel’s prophecy with the historical record of Maccabees is to confuse the shadow with the substance.
• Daniel points forward to a greater abomination and a more catastrophic fulfillment in the person of the future Antichrist.

Conclusion:
The internal consistency of Daniel 8 and 11, the textual emphasis on the time of the end, the sealed nature of the vision, and Daniel's overwhelming reaction all argue powerfully against identifying these chapters with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Instead, these texts clearly point to a still-future Antichrist. To claim otherwise is to ignore the plain indicators within the text and to accept an interpretive model that collapses under the weight of its own inconsistencies.

Antiochus IV may have been a type, but Daniel is revealing the antitype—the final enemy of God and His people.

David, I agree and would add Dan 2 to the futuristic view, not history.

 

[Zao is life]

2Thessalonains 2:4 is the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13, not the abomination of desolation statue image "set up" in Daniel 12:11-12 placed on the temple mount.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?


View attachment 66675

Dougg I like your graphs although I hardly ever agree with what they portray.

I don't agree that the transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation were not referring to the same thing.

And the biblical type of the image of the beast of Revelation 13 is the image of the beast set up by Nebuchadnezzer (Daniel 3). There was no temple to place it in - the Babylonians had destroyed the temple.

Revelation 13:14-18 says nothing about a temple.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is talking about a temple.

It's possible that the above can converge into one and the same thing at the end of days. But IMO to assert that it does, is also based on speculation.

Straight after having said that I asked ChaptGPT:

Is the image of Daniel 3 a type of the image of the beast in Revelation 13? Does either have anything to do with an abomination in the temple of God?

ChatGPT said:
Excellent question again. You're exploring typology between Daniel 3 and Revelation 13, particularly focusing on:

The image erected by Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 3.

The image of the beast in Revelation 13:14–15.

Whether either is connected to an abomination in the temple of God — possibly tying to the abomination of desolation in Daniel or the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Let’s explore this carefully.

1. Is the Image of Daniel 3 a Type of the Image of the Beast in Revelation 13?
Yes — typologically, there is a strong parallel.

Daniel 3:
Nebuchadnezzar erects a massive golden image and demands worship.

Refusal to worship it results in death (fiery furnace).

It's a state-enforced idolatry, punishing dissenters.

Revelation 13:
The false prophet orders people to make an image to the beast (Rev. 13:14).

The image is given breath and can speak, demanding worship.

Those who refuse to worship the image are killed (Rev. 13:15).

This is globalized state-sanctioned idolatry, powered by deception and spiritual manipulation.

Typological Connection:
In both cases, an image is erected by a tyrannical power, and universal worship is enforced by threat of death.

Daniel’s faithful remnant (Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego) foreshadow the faithful in Revelation who refuse to worship the beast or receive his mark.

So yes, Daniel 3's image functions as a type or shadow of the image of the beast — showing how political and religious power can converge into false worship enforced by persecution.

2. Do These Images Involve the Temple of God or an Abomination of Desolation?
This is where the typological connection becomes less direct — but there are still thematic links.

Daniel 3:
The image is not set up in the temple in Jerusalem; it’s in the plain of Dura in Babylon.

It is not an “abomination of desolation” in the strict sense — there is no desecration of the temple involved here.

It’s more of a civil-religious idolatrous test.

Revelation 13:
The image of the beast is also not explicitly placed in a temple, but it is associated with false worship, global deception, and blasphemy.

Revelation does, however, link the beast with blaspheming the temple of God and those who dwell in heaven (Rev. 13:6).

This anticipates the abomination of desolation imagery in Revelation 11:1–2 and Revelation 13, where the outer court of the temple is trampled for 42 months — echoing Daniel 8 and Daniel 11.

Abomination of Desolation:
In Daniel (9:27, 11:31, 12:11), this refers to a desecration of the temple, notably fulfilled in part by Antiochus IV, and expected to have a final fulfillment.

In the New Testament, Jesus in Matthew 24:15 speaks of a future abomination of desolation “in the holy place”, again tying it to Antichrist activity.

2 Thessalonians 2:4:
The man of sin sits in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

That’s a direct violation of sacred space, far more akin to Daniel’s abomination texts than Daniel 3.

Conclusion
The image in Daniel 3 is a type of the image of the beast — both portray idolatrous state power demanding worship, with persecution for the faithful.

Neither image is placed in the temple of God directly, but both reflect the spirit of abomination — false worship and blasphemy against the true God.

The actual abomination in the temple, especially as described in Daniel, Matthew 24, and 2 Thessalonians 2, is more directly fulfilled by Antiochus IV, and ultimately the Antichrist/man of sin, who desecrates sacred space and exalts himself as divine.

In essence, Daniel 3 sets the pattern, but Daniel 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 13 fill in the final eschatological fulfillment — all connected by a theme of false worship, persecution, and divine judgment.

 

[Zao is life]

I. Consistency Demands the Little Horn and the Vile Person Are the Same Figure

Therefore, let's ask ChatGPT a logical question rather than inserting an interpretation into the question (as you did):

ChatGPT, If consistency demands the little horn and the vile person are the same figure in Daniel Chapter 8, can they refer to Antiochus IV, Epiphanes, and can this be a type of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

ChatGPT replied,
​

This is an excellent and very nuanced theological and prophetic question. You're essentially asking about prophetic consistency, typological fulfillment, and eschatological application — specifically regarding:

The "little horn" of Daniel 8.

The "vile person" of Daniel 11:21.

Whether they both refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

And whether Antiochus is a type of the "man of sin" (or "man of lawlessness") in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

1. Are the Little Horn (Daniel 8) and the Vile Person (Daniel 11:21) the Same?
Yes, a strong case can be made that the "little horn" of Daniel 8:9–12 and the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21–35 refer to the same historical figure: Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Reasons for identifying them as the same:

Both emerge from divisions of Alexander the Great's empire (Daniel 8:8–9; Daniel 11:3–4).

Both persecute the Jewish people and desecrate the temple (Daniel 8:11–13; Daniel 11:31).

Both are described using blasphemous and arrogant language, and both oppose the holy covenant.

Historical fulfillment: Antiochus IV entered Jerusalem, outlawed Jewish practices, and set up the “abomination of desolation” — widely seen as the desecration of the temple by placing a statue of Zeus and sacrificing pigs.

So, if consistency demands they are the same, Antiochus IV is the most natural and historically verified referent.

2. Can Antiochus Be a Type of the Man of Sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?
Yes, Antiochus IV is commonly regarded as a type (foreshadowing) of the eschatological “man of sin” or “man of lawlessness” mentioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4.

Why Antiochus is a type:

Blasphemous self-exaltation: Like the “man of sin,” Antiochus exalted himself above all gods (Daniel 11:36; cf. 2 Thess. 2:4).

Temple desecration: Both figures profane the temple, challenging God’s authority.

Oppression of the faithful: Both are marked by persecution and hostility toward God's people.

The pattern of abomination, deception, and destruction in Antiochus is echoed in descriptions of the final antichrist figure.

Typology in biblical prophecy often involves a partial historical fulfillment that prefigures a more complete or final fulfillment. Antiochus is the near-term fulfillment, but Paul (writing centuries later) refers to the “man of sin” as yet future, suggesting a future ultimate Antichrist figure.

Conclusion
The little horn (Daniel 8) and the vile person (Daniel 11:21) most consistently refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Antiochus serves as a historical prototype of the “man of sin” in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Thus, prophetic consistency and typology both support this reading.

This typological approach respects both the historical fulfillment and future eschatological application, a common and well-supported hermeneutic in both Jewish and Christian interpretation.

--END OF ChatGPT'S REPLY--
​

The above is the way I see it.

David, note, that because I asked ChatGPT IF it can refer to Antiochus IV and IF he can be a type of what is to come, I did not insert that interpretation into the question - as you inserted your interpretation into your question.

The above also disagrees with the hyper-spiritualized view of @TribulationSigns which he gave to @Douggg

 

[Zao is life]

You probably already know this by now, pertaining to my view, that I see this being connected with AI. Since the devolpment of AI and the undeniable fact that it is not going away, that it will still be present when Christ returns, this tells me that AI is connected with this AOD, and that the image in question is likely pertaining to AI. But not in the way @Douggg reasons this image in a literal sense involving a literal temple.

Clearly, AI though still in it's infancy, is already beginning to resemble something that pretty much the entire world is awe stricken about. Except we haven't seen anything yet. Just wait until achieves artifical general intelligence, then artificial super intelliegence, followed by the last stage, Singularity. And that it is then in full control of the world.

And the fact AI robots are already a reality, just imagine a world with billions of these. They are pretty much indestructible. It's not like you are going to be able to shoot them with a gun and it's going to kill them. Maybe you can blow them to pieces with a bomb or something, but who is going to be blowing billions of them to pieces with bombs? Nobody, that's who, since that would contradict everything recorded in Revelation 13. Now imagine if some of these AI robots are used for the purpose of seeking out and killing anyone not wanting to comply with the rules set forth by the beast? None of this is science fiction anymore. These things are already a reality unless one wants to argue there is no such thing as AI robots.

I've noticed you seem to have become convinced that the above is the case. The reason I have not commented is because I don't reject the idea that AI will have a lot to do with the image and mark of the beast, and whether or not permission to buy and sell is granted or refused. Such a thing cannot be done on a world-wide scale unless AI and some sort of "digital passport" or identification is involved.

No one can work in such a scenario because no one can sell his services, and even if you could, what can you buy with what you earned?

But at the same time I don't insert into the text an identity either of the beast or a description of (or try to identify) the image - because the word 'beast' in the Bible is associated with a human king in Daniel 7 - which identifies three kingdoms as a lion, a bear, and a leopard, and Revelation 13:2 uses the same symbols - but in reverse (which I think is significant).

All tech experts and even the developers of AI believe that AI is dangerous - they are alarmed at the consequences of their own products.

BUT I also believe we have to be very careful about what we convince ourselves of. For example, if I'm convinced that there is a Pre-Trib rapture and then the trib comes and I experience that tribulation for my faith, then will it cause me to lose faith because I believe that the lie I believed was not me convincing myself of what wasn't true? And if I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture then will I be caught off-guard and found not watching when the Lord appears at a time I did not expect?

Likewise with the image of the beast - my advice to you is don't be caught off-guard by convincing yourself it was "this" when in fact it proved to be something else. Likewise with the actual identity of the man of sin. Likewise with the two witnesses. Nothing wrong with praying for understanding and then discussing what we think.

Thanks for that link.

 

[Douggg]

The type of the image of the beast of Revelation 13 is the image of the beast set up by Nebuchadnezzer (Daniel 3). There was no temple to place it in - the Babylonians had destroyed the temple.

Revelation 13:14-18 says nothing about a temple.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is talking about a temple.

The image that Nebuchadnezzar set up in Daniel 3 was not called the abomination of desolation in the text, like the one that Antiochus IV and his troops had placed in Daniel 11:45. Antiochus IV's historic abomination of desolation prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 will be...... a statue image.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus spoke about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

The holy place is the temple mount. The abomination of desolation of desolation standing statue image of the beast will be placed on the temple mount by the false prophet -out in the open where everyone can see it. Them living in Judaea will therefore know to flee to the mountains - because they will be able to see it..

Also the standing statue image not long after being set up will be indwelled by Satan, which will be a lying wonder that the false prophet will claim that he (the false prophet) gave life to the statue image. But it will actually be a deception by Satan.

When Jesus returns, the statue image will be brought to flames, turned to ashes and there will be Satan exposed on the temple mount.

 

[Zao is life]

The image that Nebuchadnezzar set up in Daniel 3 was not called the abomination of desolation in the text, like the one that Antiochus IV and his troops had placed in Daniel 11:45. Antiochus IV's historic abomination of desolation prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 will be...... a statue image.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus spoke about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

The holy place is the temple mount. The abomination of desolation of desolation standing statue image of the beast will be placed on the temple mount by the false prophet -out in the open where everyone can see it. Them living in Judaea will therefore know to flee to the mountains - because they will be able to see it..

Also the standing statue image not long after being set up will be indwelled by Satan, which will be a lying wonder that the false prophet will claim that he (the false prophet) gave life to the statue image. But it will actually be a deception by Satan.

When Jesus returns, the statue image will be brought to flames, turned to ashes and there will be Satan exposed on the temple mount.


View attachment 66706

Dougg I like your graphs although I hardly ever agree with what they portray.

I don't agree that the transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation were not referring to the same thing.

And the biblical type of the image of the beast of Revelation 13 is the image of the beast set up by Nebuchadnezzer (Daniel 3). There was no temple to place it in - the Babylonians had destroyed the temple.

Revelation 13:14-18 says nothing about a temple.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is talking about a temple.

It's possible that the above can converge into one and the same thing at the end of days. But IMO to assert that it does, is also based on speculation.

Straight after having said that I asked ChaptGPT:

Is the image of Daniel 3 a type of the image of the beast in Revelation 13? Does either have anything to do with an abomination in the temple of God?

ChatGPT said:
Excellent question again. You're exploring typology between Daniel 3 and Revelation 13, particularly focusing on:

The image erected by Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 3.

The image of the beast in Revelation 13:14–15.

Whether either is connected to an abomination in the temple of God — possibly tying to the abomination of desolation in Daniel or the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Let’s explore this carefully.

1. Is the Image of Daniel 3 a Type of the Image of the Beast in Revelation 13?
Yes — typologically, there is a strong parallel.

Daniel 3:
Nebuchadnezzar erects a massive golden image and demands worship.

Refusal to worship it results in death (fiery furnace).

It's a state-enforced idolatry, punishing dissenters.

Revelation 13:
The false prophet orders people to make an image to the beast (Rev. 13:14).

The image is given breath and can speak, demanding worship.

Those who refuse to worship the image are killed (Rev. 13:15).

This is globalized state-sanctioned idolatry, powered by deception and spiritual manipulation.

Typological Connection:
In both cases, an image is erected by a tyrannical power, and universal worship is enforced by threat of death.

Daniel’s faithful remnant (Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego) foreshadow the faithful in Revelation who refuse to worship the beast or receive his mark.

So yes, Daniel 3's image functions as a type or shadow of the image of the beast — showing how political and religious power can converge into false worship enforced by persecution.

2. Do These Images Involve the Temple of God or an Abomination of Desolation?
This is where the typological connection becomes less direct — but there are still thematic links.

Daniel 3:
The image is not set up in the temple in Jerusalem; it’s in the plain of Dura in Babylon.

It is not an “abomination of desolation” in the strict sense — there is no desecration of the temple involved here.

It’s more of a civil-religious idolatrous test.

Revelation 13:
The image of the beast is also not explicitly placed in a temple, but it is associated with false worship, global deception, and blasphemy.

Revelation does, however, link the beast with blaspheming the temple of God and those who dwell in heaven (Rev. 13:6).

This anticipates the abomination of desolation imagery in Revelation 11:1–2 and Revelation 13, where the outer court of the temple is trampled for 42 months — echoing Daniel 8 and Daniel 11.

Abomination of Desolation:
In Daniel (9:27, 11:31, 12:11), this refers to a desecration of the temple, notably fulfilled in part by Antiochus IV, and expected to have a final fulfillment.

In the New Testament, Jesus in Matthew 24:15 speaks of a future abomination of desolation “in the holy place”, again tying it to Antichrist activity.

2 Thessalonians 2:4:
The man of sin sits in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

That’s a direct violation of sacred space, far more akin to Daniel’s abomination texts than Daniel 3.

Conclusion
The image in Daniel 3 is a type of the image of the beast — both portray idolatrous state power demanding worship, with persecution for the faithful.

Neither image is placed in the temple of God directly, but both reflect the spirit of abomination — false worship and blasphemy against the true God.

The actual abomination in the temple, especially as described in Daniel, Matthew 24, and 2 Thessalonians 2, is more directly fulfilled by Antiochus IV, and ultimately the Antichrist/man of sin, who desecrates sacred space and exalts himself as divine.

In essence, Daniel 3 sets the pattern, but Daniel 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Revelation 13 fill in the final eschatological fulfillment — all connected by a theme of false worship, persecution, and divine judgment.

 

[Douggg]

I don't agree that the transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation were not referring to the same thing.

The transgression of desolation is a sit-in the temple of God event. An action by the Antichrist. (at present there is no temple on the temple mount. A downsized temple will be built following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39. At that temple the daily animal sacrifices will begin again - then later stopped by the Antichrist when he commits the transgression of desolation act)

The abomination of desolation is a thing. A statue image of the beast (the Antichrist person).

Just follow my chart of the five stages of the little horn person from left to right. It has the transgression of desolation noted on it.

And down below is a second chart covering the seven years. It has both the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation noted on it.

 

[Zao is life]

The transgression of desolation is a sit-in the temple of God event. An action by the Antichrist. (at present there is no temple on the temple mount. A downsized temple will be built following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39. At that temple the daily animal sacrifices will begin again - then later stopped by the Antichrist when he commits the transgression of desolation act)

None of that is written or implied.

I stick with interpreting only what is written, and praying for understanding of what is stated explicitly and implicitly and praying that I miss neither.

 

[Douggg]

Why Antiochus is a type:

Blasphemous self-exaltation: Like the “man of sin,” Antiochus exalted himself above all gods (Daniel 11:36; cf. 2 Thess. 2:4).

Temple desecration: Both figures profane the temple, challenging God’s authority.

Oppression of the faithful: Both are marked by persecution and hostility toward God's people.

The pattern of abomination, deception, and destruction in Antiochus is echoed in descriptions of the final antichrist figure.

That seems accurate.

Conclusion
The little horn (Daniel 8) and the vile person (Daniel 11:21) most consistently refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The little horn (Daniel 8) is time of the end. Differently Antiochus IV Epiphanes was historic.

Zaio is life, the little horn person, time of the end, will end up becoming the Antichrist, then later the revealed man of sin, and finally as the beast (king).

Jesus is the true Christ. The concept of "Christ" is found in Mark 15:32. Although Jesus was being mocked in the verse by the chief priests and scribes, the concept of Christ is found in that verse.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

So for the little horn person to become the "Antichrist", he must be anointed the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah. The person who will do the anointing will be the false prophet (who the Jews will initially believe is Elijah the prophet, who they are looking for to be a part of the beginning of the messianic age).

The little horn is only in the Antichrist stage as long as the Jews embrace him as their king of Israel. For about three years. When the Antichrist unexpectedly commits the transgression of desolation act - revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the Jewish messiah after all, the Jews will reject him as continuing as their king of Israel. Ending his Antichrist stage (Stage 3).

Zao is life, most of my charts are advanced. So you won't find anyone else referring to the little horn person as going through 5 stages to his final end in the lake of fire. Most people, when talking about the Antichrist, refer to the Antichrist in a broad sense as the arch villain of the end times. But technically that is not correct. The person is the Antichrist only for the time he is the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

 

[Douggg]

None of that is written or implied.

I stick with interpreting only what is written, and praying for understanding of what is stated explicitly and implicitly and praying that I miss neither.

In Daniel 8:13, the daily sacrifice has to be active. For the little horn person (as the Antichrist) to stop the daily sacrifice in the middle of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "it" in that verse is the temple. Which will be made desolate of praise and worship of the One True God.

The terms "transgression of desolation" and "abomination of desolation" is referring to make the temple desolate of the praise and worship of the One True God.

So a temple will have to be present. Because of the time constraints involved, initially the Jews will quickly erect a downsized temple in their zeal to get the daily sacrifice and other temple ordinances going as quickly as possible. (of course if some deal is made with the Muslims for the Jews to rebuild the temple before the 7 years begin - then that would affect the size of the temple being larger. But I don't expect any such deal to be made. I could be wrong. Let's watch and see.)

The daily sacrifice will begin again around 7 months into the 7 years, based on the 2300 days in Daniel 8.11-14. I show the 2300 days on this chart of the 7 years. A person could consider the chart a narrative of the 7 years in chart form.

btw, in the upper right hand corner, the "coming in his own name", I added the reference verse of John 5:43.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, right. Based on what I submitted later in post 50 I do not understand types and antitypes.

Plus, for example, Adam is a type and that Christ is the antitype. Another example---

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The woman plus all women in general are the type. The husband plus all husbands in general are the type. The antitype of the woman is the church.The antitype of the husband is Christ. But let's just be deceitful about this and insist I have no clue as to types and antitypes and that I am conflating these. Maybe that way, in your mind, it gives the impression you are winning the argument not me. You act as if Maccabees alone can't prove the type. That the book of Daniel has to prove the type. How can the book of Daniel prove the type when A4E is not even even meant in the book of Daniel?

The one meant in Daniel 8 is clearly not A4E, it is clearly a future end times AC. Therefore, what is in view in Daniel 8 is not the type, it is the antitype that is in view. The vision is shut up until the time of the end. It is totally absurd, thus unthinkable and unreasonable, to any thinking objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above the truth, that the days of A4E can remotely fit the time of the end.

What exactly is difficult to comprehend about any of the following? Shut up the vision because the vision is not fulfilled until the time of the end arrives first? How is it that you can be so reasonable about a lot of these other things you and I agree with, such as Matthew 24:15-21, but when it comes to this subject, you make no attempt to be reasonable whatsoever?


You throw common sense out the window altogether in order to keep your doctrinal bias' afloat. Sadly, you are no different than many others around here in that regard. You place your doctrinal bias' above the truth. You defend your doctrinal bias' but make no effort to defend the truth. In your mind your doctrinal bias' are the truth, the same way, for example, @Spiritual Israelite, his doctrinal bias' pertaining to Matthew 24:15-21 is the truth. Therefore, he makes no effort to defend the truth to begin with since his interpretation of Matthew 24:15-21 is not even remotely the truth to begin with. Only in his mind is it the truth. As if the mind can never play tricks on anyone, especially him, and you too, in this case.

It's real simple. A type can never be an antitype nor can an antitype ever be a type. In Daniel 8 it is the antitype that is in view not the type. While in Maccabees it is the type that is in view not the antitype. Not one single person would disagree with the latter. So why is it that many disagree with the former?

Says the guy who cannot even offer a guess as to how Matthew 24:15-21 should be interpreted. I hope you don't imagine that you are someone who should be taken seriously because you are not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

specifically..... l a z y.

Making timeline charts is essential for understanding and discussing eschatology - the study of the end times - of those who attempt to teach others about the end times.

In high school, did your teachers use a black board ? A chart is like a black board.

Will you stop this nonsense already? No one needs to make any timeline charts or diagrams to understand and discuss scripture. Except for you, apparently. There are no charts or timelines in scripture. Clearly, God expected us to be able to understand His word with written text without any need for timeline charts. You are full of pride just because you are able to make your useless charts and diagrams that never reflect scriptural truth. Get over yourself.

 

[Zao is life]

Will you stop this nonsense already? No one needs to make any timeline charts or diagrams to understand and discuss scripture. Except for you, apparently. There are no charts or timelines in scripture. Clearly, God expected us to be able to understand His word with written text without any need for timeline charts. You are full of pride just because you are able to make your useless charts and diagrams that never reflect scriptural truth. Get over yourself.

ssshhhh brother.

Will you stop this nonsense already? No one needs to make any timeline charts or diagrams to understand and discuss scripture. There are no charts or timelines in scripture. Clearly, God expected us to be able to understand His word with written text without any need for timeline charts. Your charts and diagrams never reflect scriptural truth.

That's better.

PS: Apparently none of us understands all God's Word with written text.

If we all drew charts we'd all have our understanding of God's Word in pictures, and your chart would have Matthew 24:15-21 in 70 AD. My chart would have it at the same time as 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Luke uses the exact same words as Matthew in Matthew 24:16 when he records Jesus talking about armies gathering around Jerusalem in Luke 21:21, making you correct - if Jesus was talking about 70 AD in Luke 21:20-24 and not something still to come.

But Luke uses the exact same words as Matthew in Matthew 24:17-18 when he records Jesus talking about the end of the age and time of His return in Luke 17:31-32, making me correct.

Thank God, our salvation does not depend on our understanding of every part of scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Will you stop this nonsense already? No one needs to make any timeline charts or diagrams to understand and discuss scripture. Except for you, apparently. There are no charts or timelines in scripture. Clearly, God expected us to be able to understand His word with written text without any need for timeline charts. You are full of pride just because you are able to make your useless charts and diagrams that never reflect scriptural truth. Get over yourself.

Here is a 14 end times time frames diagram I made using standard keyboard typing. Since you believe that the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled already, I left that one out. (I retain it on my graphic program created diagram).

So, you make your version of the diagram and present it. Showing how the time frames fit.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<2520 days - 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
.........................................................................gentiles trample Jerusalem, (42 months Revelation 11:2......................)Jesus's return day
...............................................................................................the beast's reign, (42 months Revelation 13:5.....................)Jesus's return day
..........................................................................................Satan's persecution (time,times half time Revelation 12:14)Jesus's return day
............................................................little horn changes times and laws (time, times, half time Daniel 7:25.........)Jesus's return day
.......................................................................Daniel's people under duress (time, times, half time Daniel 12:7........)Jesus's return day
............................................................abomination of desolation (the great tribulation 1335 days, Daniel 12:12.)Jesus's return day
little horn actions.......(2300 days Daniel 8:14.......................................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
........................................................................7 years Ezekiel 39:9................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
(7 months Ezekiel 39:12) Israel burying the dead of Gog's armies
(1260 days Revelation 12:6.......................................) Israel fed the word of God
(1260 days Revelation 11:3.......................................) the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
..............................................................................................(3 1/2 days) the two witnesses bodies lay dead
..................................................................................(1290 days Daniel 12:11.................................................................)
..................................................................................................................(5 months Revelation 9:10) flesh tormenting locust

Here it is with the like time frames colored. No graphics program involved in making this diagram.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<2520 days - 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
.........................................................................gentiles trample Jerusalem, (42 months Revelation 11:2......................)Jesus's return day
...............................................................................................the beast's reign, (42 months Revelation 13:5.....................)Jesus's return day
..........................................................................................Satan's persecution (time,times half time Revelation 12:14)Jesus's return day
............................................................little horn changes times and laws (time, times, half time Daniel 7:25.........)Jesus's return day
.......................................................................Daniel's people under duress (time, times, half time Daniel 12:7........)Jesus's return day
............................................................abomination of desolation (the great tribulation 1335 days, Daniel 12:12.)Jesus's return day
little horn actions.......(2300 days Daniel 8:14.......................................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
........................................................................7 years Ezekiel 39:9................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
(7 months Ezekiel 39:12) Israel burying the dead of Gog's armies
(1260 days Revelation 12:6.......................................) Israel fed the word of God
(1260 days Revelation 11:3.......................................) the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
..............................................................................................(3 1/2 days) the two witnesses bodies lay dead
..................................................................................(1290 days Daniel 12:11.................................................................)
..................................................................................................................(5 months Revelation 9:10) flesh tormenting locust

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

ssshhhh brother.



That's better.

I like my post better how it was before you edited it. I meant what I said.

PS: Apparently none of us understands all God's Word with written text.

If we all drew charts we'd all have our understanding of God's Word in pictures, and your chart would have Matthew 24:15-21 in 70 AD. My chart would have it at the same time as 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Yes, but we don't need to make charts to understand that, do we. Of course not.

Luke uses the exact same words as Matthew in Matthew 24:16 when he records Jesus talking about armies gathering around Jerusalem in Luke 21:21, making you correct - if Jesus was talking about 70 AD in Luke 21:20-24 and not something still to come.

But Luke uses the exact same words as Matthew in Matthew 24:17-18 when he records Jesus talking about the end of the age and time of His return in Luke 17:31-32, making me correct.

Thank God, our salvation does not depend on our understanding of every part of scripture.

Of course it doesn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is a 14 end times time frames diagram I made using standard keyboard typing. Since you believe that the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled already, I left that one out. (I retain it on my graphic program created diagram).

So, you make your version of the diagram and present it. Showing how the time frames fit.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<2520 days - 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
.........................................................................gentiles trample Jerusalem, (42 months Revelation 11:2......................)Jesus's return day
...............................................................................................the beast's reign, (42 months Revelation 13:5.....................)Jesus's return day
..........................................................................................Satan's persecution (time,times half time Revelation 12:14)Jesus's return day
............................................................little horn changes times and laws (time, times, half time Daniel 7:25.........)Jesus's return day
.......................................................................Daniel's people under duress (time, times, half time Daniel 12:7........)Jesus's return day
............................................................abomination of desolation (the great tribulation 1335 days, Daniel 12:12.)Jesus's return day
little horn actions.......(2300 days Daniel 8:14.......................................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
........................................................................7 years Ezekiel 39:9................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
(7 months Ezekiel 39:12) Israel burying the dead of Gog's armies
(1260 days Revelation 12:6.......................................) Israel fed the word of God
(1260 days Revelation 11:3.......................................) the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
..............................................................................................(3 1/2 days) the two witnesses bodies lay dead
..................................................................................(1290 days Daniel 12:11.................................................................)
..................................................................................................................(5 months Revelation 9:10) flesh tormenting locust

Here it is with the like time frames colored. No graphics program involved in making this diagram.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<2520 days - 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
.........................................................................gentiles trample Jerusalem, (42 months Revelation 11:2......................)Jesus's return day
...............................................................................................the beast's reign, (42 months Revelation 13:5.....................)Jesus's return day
..........................................................................................Satan's persecution (time,times half time Revelation 12:14)Jesus's return day
............................................................little horn changes times and laws (time, times, half time Daniel 7:25.........)Jesus's return day
.......................................................................Daniel's people under duress (time, times, half time Daniel 12:7........)Jesus's return day
............................................................abomination of desolation (the great tribulation 1335 days, Daniel 12:12.)Jesus's return day
little horn actions.......(2300 days Daniel 8:14.......................................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
........................................................................7 years Ezekiel 39:9................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
(7 months Ezekiel 39:12) Israel burying the dead of Gog's armies
(1260 days Revelation 12:6.......................................) Israel fed the word of God
(1260 days Revelation 11:3.......................................) the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
..............................................................................................(3 1/2 days) the two witnesses bodies lay dead
..................................................................................(1290 days Daniel 12:11.................................................................)
..................................................................................................................(5 months Revelation 9:10) flesh tormenting locust

I don't see the time frames as all in the future and all literal as you do, so it would be a pointless exercise for me to do that. You try to pinpoint exactly when you think each event will happen in the future because you are a futurist. That's you. I don't see it that way, so I feel no need to try to make a timeline. Don't ask me to do it again. I never will.

 

[Douggg]

I don't see the time frames as all in the future and all literal as you do, so it would be a pointless exercise for me to do that. You try to pinpoint exactly when you think each event will happen in the future because you are a futurist. That's you. I don't see it that way, so I feel no need to try to make a timeline. Don't ask me to do it again. I never will.

Then make a diagram for the time frames you see as future and literal.