Contending with the devil

[Matthias]

“Secondly, the Bible also depicts the devil as a real being, not as an impersonal force. Even though the poetic language of Genesis 3 or the early chapters of Job, the narratives depicting Satan are thoroughly historical in nature. Just as Adam and Eve were real persons, so the serpent was a real serpent, really speaking. The dialogue between God and the devil concerning Job is also indicative of a real being. In other words, God wasn’t talking to himself! Nor was he interacting with some impersonal force.”

(Jared C. Wilson, “Yes, the Devil is Real”)

I would ask the Baptist pastor for clarification on his statement about the snake. Satan isn’t literally a snake.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Quick read, check out this article on the devil and see how weak its arguments are.

Yes, the Devil is Real | For The Church

ftc.co

 

[Hiddenthings]

“Secondly, the Bible also depicts the devil as a real being, not as an impersonal force. Even though the poetic language of Genesis 3 or the early chapters of Job, the narratives depicting Satan

Sorry, where is satan in Genesis chapter 3?

Just as Adam and Eve were real persons, so the serpent was a real serpent, really speaking. The dialogue between God and the devil concerning Job is also indicative of a real being. In other words, God wasn’t talking to himself! Nor was he interacting with some impersonal force.”

Wow - your adversary in Job enters the scene for 2 chapters and is gone never to be spoken of again and at the end of the book God is attributed as having brought the evil (trials) on Job.

The ignorance is astounding

 

[Matthias]

“Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the New Testament writers undeniably believed the devil was a real being. An impersonal force cannot ‘scheme’ (Eph. 6:11). An impersonal force does not have a ‘will’ (2 Tim. 2:26). An impersonal force does cannot ‘prowl’ (1 Pet. 5:8). Most notably, Jesus himself dialogues with the devil during his wilderness temptation (Matt. 4).

So yes, I do believe there is a real devil who commands real demons. He really does want to destroy God’s good creation, and he really does tempt and tey real Christians.”

(Jared C. Wilson, “Yes, the Devil is Real”)

Readers should be aware that the Christadelphians acknowledge that they don’t know who tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, the New Testament writers undeniably believed the devil was a real being. An impersonal force cannot ‘scheme’ (Eph. 6:11).

Post #75

An impersonal force does not have a ‘will’ (2 Tim. 2:26). An impersonal force does e cannot ‘prowl’ (1 Pet. 5:8). Most notably, Jesus himself dialogues with the devil during his wilderness temptation (Matt. 4).

Unidentified adversary.

So yes, I do believe there is a real devil who commands real demons. He really does want to destroy God’s good creation, and he really does tempt and tey real Christians.”

No evidence again!

 

[Matthias]

Christadelphians aren’t contending against Satan and the demons. They are contending against God, the Messiah, the New Testament writers, and the Judeo-Christian worldview.

No, they aren’t contending against Satan and the demons. They are in league with Satan and the demons.

Readers, don‘t be kowtowed or intimidated by them labelling you ”pagan” and “crazy” if you disagree with them on this doctrine.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, they aren’t contending against Satan and the demons. They are in league with him.

The issue has been clearly witnessed in this and other threads. No evidence and no proven identity...no origin story

 

[Matthias]

“No evidence!“ shriek the Christadelphians.

Don’t let them bamboozle you, Christians. The New Testament clearly identifies who tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Your pastors are telling you the truth about Satan and the demons. You aren’t ignorant of the fact. The Christadelphians are blind to it and enraged by it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“No evidence!“

Your last four posts - "special pleading" and this one!

 

[Matthias]

Christian readers, take note. The Christadelphian has proudly and publicly announced in this thread who he is “in the midst of doing battle with” - it is you (post#78) whom he is boasting are “the adversaries (the satans)”.

You’re being falsely accused by the Satan and his demons. The Christadelphian is just his and their mouthpiece.

 

[Matthias]

Christian readers, the Christadelphian has said something multiple times which mustn’t escape our attention. He‘s said it in this thread and in several other threads - this is a critically important point. He beats it like a drum. What is it?

”No origin story.”

He’s taken the time to stress it time and again. He wants you to think about it; to take it seriously. I want you to think about it; to take it seriously.

This is the underpinning of the Christadelphian doctrine that Satan and the demons aren’t real.

He thinks it’s a winner. I tell you it’s a loser.

The devil and the demons aren’t real because there is no origin story for them in the Bible?

Here’s why it’s a loser: God. No origin story.

The underpinning for his argument is fundamentally flawed and can’t bear the load. The argument collapses.

Listen to him acknowledge it himself: “No origin story! Such a frustrating doctrine to hold when you have nothing to pin your beliefs on“ (post #94, in the “Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan” thread).

When he insists that “no origin story = no existence” then we must insist that he applies it to everything which doesn’t contain an origin story in scripture, including God himself.

There is no origin story for God in the Bible. “No origin story = no existence” -> God isn’t real. He doesn’t exist.

He’s using an argument borrowed from atheism.

 

[Hiddenthings]

He’s using an argument borrowed from atheism.

It's but one issue you face with your false teaching is the lack of an origin story.

Allow me to show you what is meant by an origin story.

"Many people begin to build their understanding of demons, and their purported chief, the devil, with Genesis 3. One of the most familiar images from all the biblical narratives is the temptation of Adam and Eve by the serpent, who is traditionally assumed to be the devil"

John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2019), 128.

Not only does Matthias lack any account of this angel’s fall, but his entire belief is built on an assumption.

He’s aware of this, and he also knows that the Genesis narrative says nothing about such a being. In fact, the entire Old Testament is devoid of any reference to what the Churches have later assumed.

The question is whether he can be honest in agreeing with John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, or not.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Readers, please allow me to quote again from John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton

It is interesting, then, to note that the Old Testament never equates the serpent with Satan. Indeed, the episode is never mentioned or alluded to again at any point in the Old Testament

John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2019), 128.

If someone who holds to a doctrine can still acknowledge such truths about something the Bible is entirely silent on, I respect their honesty. And while it is indeed honesty, it's also a matter of inescapable facts.

But what have these inescapable facts triggered in the mind of a self-deceived Christian? Led by blind guides, they've embraced a set of ideas about this imaginary being, so deeply ingrained in their psyche that the fabricated story now seems to appear in Genesis, even though it's not there. Such is the power of self-deception.

Let's test @Matthias and check his integrity:

New Testament authors do not tell us what the original text meant in context. We cannot therefore assume that Paul and John are offering a positive identification of the character in Genesis, and on that basis assume that we can examine the serpent as portrayed in Genesis to learn something about the devil. We must deal with the text-in-context; Genesis in the context of the ancient Near East, and Romans and Revelation in the context of the Second Temple period, which includes not only the text of Genesis but also a long history of interpretation.

John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2019), 128.

John Walton is right, there isn't a single New Testament passage where Matthias can find an origin story or any clear teaching about this being's identity, history and anything at all about it - nothing!

This is the level of honesty I have been looking for in this forum and I've only encountered it partially with @Wick Stick and no-one else.

This places men like Matthias in a position of self-reflection to see if indeed spiritual integrity is important to him on this subject.

 

[Matthias]

“Allow me to state it plainly: demons are fallen angels. They are Satan’s servants committed to his plan to thwart the plan of God.”

(David Jeremiah, “What Does the Bible Say About the Origins of Angels, Demons, and Lucifer?”)

What Does the Bible Say About the Origins of Angels, Demons, and Lucifer?

Dr. David Jeremiah discusses the origin of evil, demons, Satan, Lucifer, and the Nephilim. Discover action steps for dealing with demonic powers.

davidjeremiah.blog

Another in the long parade line of Christian pastors defending the scriptures against the assault of the Christadelphian.

Remember, readers. The Christadelphian is accusing Dr. Jeremiah of being numbered among “the satans” whom he’s battling.

The Christadelpians, Satan, and the demons are waging a spiritual war on Christianity.

They are waging spiritual war on Christians.

They are waging spiritual war on God and on his Son, the Messiah.

They can’t win that war.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is astounding a fact is what John Walton goes on to say...

When examining a text-in-context it is important to determine its genre as best as we can. Unfortunately, there is no direct parallel to the narrative of Genesis 3 anywhere in ancient Near Eastern literature that we have discovered. Nevertheless, several of the elements found in the Genesis narrative are also present in ancient Near Eastern epics. The element of a plant that gives life and is lost due to the activity of a serpent is found in the Gilgamesh epic, and the element of food that grants eternal life and is lost due to trickery and deception is found in the tale of Adapa. The elements are used in different ways, so we cannot say that Genesis is an adaptation or corruption of these stories specifically; however, the similarity of the elements indicates that the stories are written to communicate similar things in similar ways, and that the issues are a matter of curiosity in the culture.

John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, Demons and Spirits in Biblical Theology: Reading the Biblical Text in Its Cultural and Literary Context (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2019), 128.

Even in the oldest texts, there’s nothing that supports the so-called fallen angel story—only what is accurately described in Genesis 3: the account of an animal more cunning than any other the Lord God had made.

And when the resistant Christian is asked why God would create such a cunning, talking serpent—how do they respond?

The wisdom is lost on them because they've embraced another story, one of their own making and choosing.

 

[Matthias]

“Yes, the devil certainly does exist; he isn’t just an idea dreamed up to explain the existence of evil. Someone has said that one of Satan’s tricks is to convince us he doesn’t exist - but he does.”

(Billy Graham, “Does the devil really exist? If so, what does he look like?”)

Does the devil really exist? If so, what does he look like? - The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association of Canada

The devil is a powerful spiritual being.

www.billygraham.ca

The Christadelphian has been duped by the devil. He is defending the devil and the demons and accusing Dr. Graham as being numbered among “the satans”.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“Yes, the devil certainly does exist; he isn’t just an idea dreamed up to explain the existence of evil. Someone has said that one of Satan’s tricks is to convince us he doesn’t exist - but he does.”

(Billy Graham, “Does the devil really exist? If so, what does he look like?”)

And in all his sermons, not once did Billy Graham provide a single verse that revealed this being’s identity or history, not once!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Here is another interesting question one I'm sure will stimulate discussion.

In reference to Matthew 4

If we had no prior knowledge of a person named “Satan” or “devil,” what would these texts tell us about him?

For instance,

If this fallen angel was powerful where is its demonstration?

If this fallen angel were truly so integral to the narrative, why wasn’t it ever identified as such?

What the question is really getting at is that the false accuser comes across more like a powerless human, one with a poor understanding of the Word of God than a powerful fallen angel. The same issue occurs with Job's adversary who is also powerless.

This stands in stark contrast to the view I've seen expressed in this forum, where their evil supernatural being is believed to have the power to influence minds and devour people at will.

Conclusion:

The tempter appears as a tester (prompting thoughts), quoting Scripture (badly), and is ultimately dismissed by Jesus with a single command.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“Allow me to state it plainly: demons are fallen angels. They are Satan’s servants committed to his plan to thwart the plan of God.”

Your link attempts to force an origin story onto a prophecy clearly directed at the King of Tyre, even while acknowledging the proper context.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Word of God.

Instead of seeking the true meaning of Ezekiel 28, a profound and inspired piece of literature, the would-be theologian chooses to rewrite it according to the assumptions they’ve already decided to promote.

Disgusting!

 

[Matthias]

“First, the devil is real.

In popular culture, there are a wide variety of depictions of the devil. These depictions range from the comical to the abstract. Sometimes, the devil is a little red man with horns, a tail, and a pitchfork, urging people towards sin. Other times, the devil is merely a personification meant to put a face to evil. But his actual existence and attributes don’t depend on any individuals belief about him. He objectively exists, and the Bible gives us the accurate picture of who Satan is and how he interacts with reality.

Satan is not just an idea or symbol for evil. He is a real, created, and finite being. Having been created, he is not equal to God. In fact, when he led a rebellion against God, he lost (Rev. 12). Having lost that rebellion, he was cast out of Heaven. The devil does not rule Hell, either. Hell is a place created as a punishment for him (Matt. 25:41).

The devil now oversees a host of demons, referred to in the Bible as ‘the world forces of this darkness’ and ‘the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places’ (Eph. 6:12). With his horde of demons, the devil seeks to influence the world against God through lies, accusations, and deceptions. These are Satans weapons. Jesus says Satan ‘was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand with the truth because there is no truth in him.’ He also says Satan is the ‘father of lies’ (Jn. 8:44).

Throughout Scripture, we see examples of Satan using lies and deceptions in the hopes of nullifying the effects of the Word of God in the lives of people (Matt. 13:19). He pressed Eve, ‘Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’ (Gen. 3:1). He tempted Jesus in the in the desert by misrepresenting Scripture’s words about the Messiah (Matt. 4:1-11).

The devil is real, and he will lie to you about your identity. He will lie to destroy your life John 10:10). Peter said, ‘Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour (1 Pet. 5:8). The devil is not all-powerful, though. James says, ‘Resist the devil and he will flee from you’ (Jas. 4:7).”

(Jonathan Noyes, “The Devil Is Real”)

The Devil Is Real

Satan is not just an idea or symbol for evil. He is real. Here’s what the Bible says about who he is, how he tempts us, and how we can resist him.

www.str.org

Who is defending the devil and who is not, readers?

The devil is distorting scripture and accusing Christians of distorting scripture.