Is it possible to lose salvation?

[ProDeo]

1 God changed me,
2. But yes. this is a work. its called producing fruit.

Finally

did I have any faith at all if this was true? Did I repent if this is true?

Excellent question, but let's enjoy our hard fought agreement for the moment.

 

[ProDeo]

The "sin" is to teach that you have to do good works after you are saved, to keep from losing your salvation.

This teaching replaces (rejects) Christ as Savior with your works and self effort and obedience.

So, its not the "good works" and "obedience" that are the issue......Its the "fallen from grace" people who are trying to keep themselves saved by doing works//obedience, who dont understand God's "GIFT of salvation, who are the issue ...who are teaching their "self saving" Legalism, on forums and in pulpits and in commentaries and utube videos, and on TV.

When you came to Christ, you became a new creation, made changes in your life, that is work / fruits.

What if you would not have made any changes and kept doing the sinful things of your past, would you still be saved?

 

[nedsk]

When you came to Christ, you became a new creation, made changes in your life, that is work / fruits.

What if you would not have made any changes and kept doing the sinful things of your past, would you still be saved?

I suspect that poster will say if a person continues to do sinful things then they werent really saved. That's nonsensical since we all continue to do sinful things. I would suggest the better question is does being saved "cause" good works? Are people.no longer free to choose how to behave once they are saved? If faith or being saved doesn't "cause" good works then doing goods works is a choice. If then it's a choice, then "saved" Christians can choose to do sinful.things and in fact we know they do since even "saved" Christians are still human beings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You've provided verses that we are to BELIEVE.

Not getting into the definition of BELIEVE again.

Yes, That we are to have faith

what is the defenition of faith

1. To trust, To have assurance. To believe, to have faith. not based on blind faith. but a faith based on evidence.

Been trying for 10 years with you --- I give up.

You should have given up ten years ago. because you were never going to convince me that we have to work to get saved.

But those reading along should either know what BELIEVE means,
or they should find out if in any doubt.

yes they should know

and they should know that salvation is complete when in faith one received Christ, it does not start. like you think, We do not begin in the spirit (faith) yet perfect in the flesh (works. Paul calls people who think this fools.

And as to works having something to do with one's final destiny...
Let's see what JESUS has to say about it:

Matthew 25:45-46
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Jesus is teaching that those that did NOT do good works will go away into punishment.

Yes

bu why did they not do good works?

Because they never trusted God

how are we saved?

By grace THROUGH FAITH

how can one be saved if they NEVER trusted (had faith)

they never were saved.. If you agreed with this, we would be in total agreement, But you push it and claim we can lose salvation.. thats where the disconnect comes.

 

[nedsk]

Yes, That we are to have faith

what is the defenition of faith

1. To trust, To have assurance. To believe, to have faith. not based on blind faith. but a faith based on evidence.

You should have given up ten years ago. because you were never going to convince me that we have to work to get saved.

yes they should know

and they should know that salvation is complete when in faith one received Christ, it does not start. like you think, We do not begin in the spirit (faith) yet perfect in the flesh (works. Paul calls people who think this fools.



Yes

bu why did they not do good works?

Because they never trusted God

how are we saved?

By grace THROUGH FAITH

how can one be saved if they NEVER trusted (had faith)

they never were saved.. If you agreed with this, we would be in total agreement, But you push it and claim we can lose salvation.. thats where the disconnect comes.

If we can't lose our salvation then we can behave however we like once we are saved. You can't have it both ways and claim someone wasn't "really" saved if they continue to behave badly. If faith is sufficient and I can't lose my salvation then I can do whatever I like as long as I have faith. Unless you mean to say faith is completed by works just like James says.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You've correctly stated your position !
Which is why you've told me, more than once, that I must not be saved.

All I tell you and continue to say, is I do not see you as having faith in christ, i see you have faith in your own ability to work or not work

if you trusted God. you would trust he will do what he promised to do to ALL his children, and he will change you..

WE don't have FAITH IN SELF EG.
No Christian does.

No child of God does I agree

But people do have faith in self. the pharisees did. those trying to add circumcision and works of the law did. and people today who try to add works of whatever kind to get keep or maintain salvation. but for some reason think they are not like the pharisees or jews. who did the same thing

We have faith in what Jesus taught...and Paul and all the writers.

No, you have faith in what you think Jesus taught

They taught that we are to obey God....
obeying God means doing the good works Jesus spoke of.

I teach the same thing. actually I teach it different. I teach those born of God will obey him.. Because I trust God not only that he has saved me, but he will change me (he made me a new creature. I did not make myself

I just mentioned Matthew 25...there's plenty more.

Matthew 7:12
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 7:23
Matthew 7:24
John 15:2
John 15:6

and more...

I have responded to these passages so many times

when will you respond to mine

Right.
We must be saved FIRST.

Need I repeat?
The UNSAVED are NOT required to obey God.

The SAVED ARE required to obey God.

and what does this mean. how Good is good enough. does it change now because we are saved? or is it the same as the requirement to the lost?

John 3:36 those who do not obey will have the wrath of God on them.

yes. why? Because they did not have faith.. Not because they did not do some good works.

Right.
Who ever said otherwise.

Are you saved or are you "maybe saved"

do you teach we have been saved (perfect tense, a completed action)

or we are in the process of being saved? (salvation is not assured?

this is good. we can look at definitions and see what separates us

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Finally

I never said otherwise

Excellent question, but let's enjoy our hard fought agreement for the moment.

Although I think we always agreed in this part. most people do . we will see if we continue to agree

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I suspect that poster will say if a person continues to do sinful things then they werent really saved.

Actually John said they were never saved

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

So we see. whoever lived in sin, or whoever continues to live in sin, has never met God. and do not know him at all


7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So we see again, whoever lives in sin is of the devil. so they have definitely never met Christ or God.

But john does not stop here.

Whoever has been Born of God can not live in sin, why? They have been born of God. Think eph 2: 10. for we (those saved) were created in Christ for good works.

we are new creatures.. No longer dogs who return to their vomit

why do you deny the power of God to change.

and once again, you should stop. this is the second time you have mocked me, and the second time you have been proved to actually Mock the word of God not me

I would suggest the better question is does being saved "cause" good works?

YES the answer I have given you 100 times is YES.

Are people.no longer free to choose how to behave once they are saved?

Are you perfect? Why do you judge others if you yourself have not met Gods standard?

If faith or being saved doesn't "cause" good works then doing goods works is a choice.

We do good works because we are saved, created in Christ for good works.

we do Good works because we trust God. and our sinful nature was defeated

We do good works because God continues to prove himself faithfull. If we trust him for eternity. why would we not trust him in our every day life?

If then it's a choice, then "saved" Christians can choose to do sinful.things and in fact we know they do since even "saved" Christians are still human beings.

Who said otherwise? You again mock what you do not understand..

 

[nedsk]

Actually John said they were never saved

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

So we see. whoever lived in sin, or whoever continues to live in sin, has never met God. and do not know him at all


7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So we see again, whoever lives in sin is of the devil. so they have definitely never met Christ or God.

But john does not stop here.

Whoever has been Born of God can not live in sin, why? They have been born of God. Think eph 2: 10. for we (those saved) were created in Christ for good works.

we are new creatures.. No longer dogs who return to their vomit

why do you deny the power of God to change.

and once again, you should stop. this is the second time you have mocked me, and the second time you have been proved to actually Mock the word of God not me




YES the answer I have given you 100 times is YES.

Are you perfect? Why do you judge others if you yourself have not met Gods standard?

We do good works because we are saved, created in Christ for good works.

we do Good works because we trust God. and our sinful nature was defeated

We do good works because God continues to prove himself faithfull. If we trust him for eternity. why would we not trust him in our every day life?


Who said otherwise? You again mock what you do not understand..

Then you have never seen Him sin you have already sinned today.

If faith "causes" works the you are not acting out of love. Love is a freely chosen action of the will. If faith causes the action then by definition it can't be love.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If we can't lose our salvation then we can behave however we like once we are saved.

Actually it is paul who said all things are lawfull

but thats beside the point

1. I am a new creature. my old self served self 24/7 all I could do was sin, in everything I did, it was a life of sin

My new self is created new, it is not a dog who loves to eat his vomit. It is a creature in which tastes vomit (sin) for what it is..

so when we do sin, it does not have the same effect. It has the apposite affect. It is like eating your vomit and for the first time tasting it for what it is Stomach acid. which not only tastes bad. but is harmful to us..

and then, we have God chastening us, and trying to get us back on track.

Again, i do not know why you, claiming to be a Christian, does not understand these things..

You can't have it both ways and claim someone wasn't "really" saved if they continue to behave badly.

Again, John said they have never met God. Not me

your argument is with John..

If I was you. I would have that argument offline. so people do not see you arguing with an apostle.

If faith is sufficient and I can't lose my salvation then I can do whatever I like as long as I have faith. Unless you mean to say faith is completed by works just like James says.

Nope

Because you do or act or decide to do things you trust in,

if you trust in self. you will serve self. and you will live in sin

if you trust God. you will serve God (maybe not perfectly) and put your life in Gods hands who said he WILL (not Might) Change you

again, as A professed believer, why you do not see these things I can not understand

 

[nedsk]

Actually it is paul who said all things are lawfull

but thats beside the point

1. I am a new creature. my old self served self 24/7 all I could do was sin, in everything I did, it was a life of sin

My new self is created new, it is not a dog who loves to eat his vomit. It is a creature in which tastes vomit (sin) for what it is..

so when we do sin, it does not have the same effect. It has the apposite affect. It is like eating your vomit and for the first time tasting it for what it is Stomach acid. which not only tastes bad. but is harmful to us..

and then, we have God chastening us, and trying to get us back on track.

Again, i do not know why you, claiming to be a Christian, does not understand these things..

Again, John said they have never met God. Not me

your argument is with John..

If I was you. I would have that argument offline. so people do not see you arguing with an apostle.

Nope

Because you do or act or decide to do things you trust in,

if you trust in self. you will serve self. and you will live in sin

if you trust God. you will serve God (maybe not perfectly) and put your life in Gods hands who said he WILL (not Might) Change you

again, as A professed believer, why you do not see these things I can not understand

Lol do you fancy yourself and "apostle"? Theres.one of your many sins today

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then you have never seen Him sin you have already sinned today.

commiting a personal sin is not the same as living in sin

John did not say we would never sin again, in fact, he said if we claim to be without sin we decieve ourselves.

Again, do a deep dive into John.. You are disagreeing with alot he says

If faith "causes" works the you are not acting out of love. Love is a freely chosen action of the will. If faith causes the action then by definition it can't be love.

We love because God first loved us

If I trust God, and because of it, have recieved Gods love. then I give that love away by acting in faith

again, Not sure who is teaching you. But I would find another church or teacher

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lol do you fancy yourself and "apostle"? Theres.one of your many sins today

I am quoting apostles. I never claimed I was an apostle (I quoted paul and John)

Now your mocking

and your also judging

do you think that makes you special or something?

dude, your hurting yourself. you should stop while your behind before yuo get further behind..

 

[nedsk]

commiting a personal sin is not the same as living in sin

John did not say we would never sin again, in fact, he said if we claim to be without sin we decieve ourselves.

Again, do a deep dive into John.. You are disagreeing with alot he says

We love because God first loved us

If I trust God, and because of it, have recieved Gods love. then I give that love away by acting in faith

again, Not sure who is teaching you. But I would find another church or teacher

It's exactly the same. Sin separates.us from God. You can dance all the dances you like but sinnis sin unless unless you've been indoctrinated

 

[nedsk]

I am quoting apostles. I never claimed I was an apostle (I quoted paul and John)

Now your mocking

and your also judging

do you think that makes you special or something?

dude, your hurting yourself. you should stop while your behind before yuo get further behind..

And i quoted James. You're getting more and more upset. "dude"is the tell lol

 

[GodsGrace]

I suspect that poster will say if a person continues to do sinful things then they werent really saved. That's nonsensical since we all continue to do sinful things. I would suggest the better question is does being saved "cause" good works? Are people.no longer free to choose how to behave once they are saved? If faith or being saved doesn't "cause" good works then doing goods works is a choice. If then it's a choice, then "saved" Christians can choose to do sinful.things and in fact we know they do since even "saved" Christians are still human beings.

Could you expound a little...

As I understand it:
We do not lose free will at salvation.
We can still decide to do good or to do evil...
we still decide how to behave.
( we all will sin - no one is perfect )

Faith does not CAUSE good works...
it's a choice we make.

This would go to the flesh against the spirit in Romans.

So you're making the point that, yes, SAVED CHRISTIANS still can choose to do evil.

Thus rejecting the notion of "they were never saved to begin with".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's exactly the same.

No it is not

me trusting and serving self at one time is not the same as me continuously trusting and serving self.

Sin separates.us from God.

if your not under grace, your 100% correct. But all sin. not just the pet sins you all like to push

You can dance all the dances you like but sinnis sin unless unless you've been indoctrinated

Yes 100% sin is sin

But John said if we claim we have so sin we decieve ourselves

and he also said if we sin (live in sin) we have never met or seen God.

Now like with james and paul. you have to solve the apparent contradiction.

and stop with the brainwash comments. they make you look foolish and proud as if you are somebody who is somebody.

Your the one causing the bible to contradict itself. not me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And i quoted James. You're getting more and more upset. "dude"is the tell lol

lol

You quoted one verse from one passage

I quoted many verses from many passages.

I am not upset my friend. I am calling you what I think of you. a dude who thinks he knows it all. and is unable to listen or comprehend what others are saying

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Could you expound a little...

As I understand it:
We do not lose free will at salvation.
We can still decide to do good or to do evil...
we still decide how to behave.
( we all will sin - no one is perfect )

Faith does not CAUSE good works...
it's a choice we make.

then what causes good works?

Will i do good works if I do not have faith?

Can I please god apart from Faith?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Did Not the author say we must have faith to not only come to God. but to please him (do good works)

This would go to the flesh against the spirit in Romans.

So you're making the point that, yes, SAVED CHRISTIANS still can choose to do evil.

Thus rejecting the notion of "they were never saved to begin with".

No one teaches a person who stull struggles with sin issues has never been saved

we are talking about people who continue to live in sin, IE they never had a changed life, they live as before.

why would you continue to misrepresent people?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, That we are to have faith

what is the defenition of faith

1. To trust, To have assurance. To believe, to have faith. not based on blind faith. but a faith based on evidence.

You should have given up ten years ago. because you were never going to convince me that we have to work to get saved.

I NEVER set out to convince you that works save us because they don't.
You get justification mixed up with sanctification.

I've been trying to define BELIEVE for you....
you DO state the definition...
but then you don't APPLY it to Christian theology.

yes they should know

and they should know that salvation is complete when in faith one received Christ, it does not start. like you think, We do not begin in the spirit (faith) yet perfect in the flesh (works. Paul calls people who think this fools.

Actually, it IS a start.

Those who are saved are those who endure.

Those who ENDURE to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 Jesus said:
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Who should endure till the end?
The unsaved?
No.
The saved.
The unsaved are already lost.

Revelation 2;10 be faithful until the end and I will give you the crown of LIFE:

John 6:40 Everyone WHO BELIEVES (present tense) I will raise up on the last day.

Yes

bu why did they not do good works?

Because they never trusted God

Because, maybe, they've learned that they don't have to?
That God accepts everything they do after salvation?
THIS is the teaching of OSAS..
if you don't agree with it, you should stop supporting it.

how are we saved?

By grace THROUGH FAITH

how can one be saved if they NEVER trusted (had faith)

they never were saved.. If you agreed with this, we would be in total agreement, But you push it and claim we can lose salvation.. thats where the disconnect comes.

But JESUS said we could be saved and then lose our salvation.

Don't you even believe Jesus? (a mental belief in this case).