WHO IS THE ROCK? JESUS OR PETER

[Doug]

[Mat 16:18-19 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Psa 18:2 KJV] 2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

[Psa 62:6 KJV] 6 He only [is] my rock and my salvation: [he is] my defence; I shall not be moved.

[Psa 18:31 KJV] 31 For who [is] God save the LORD? or who [is] a rock save our God?

Jesus is the rock. Jesus would build his church.

[Gal 2:8 KJV] 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter.

Along with this apostleship, Peter was given authority to loose and bind.

[Jhn 20:23 KJV] 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Peter would have the authority to loose and bind sins. This begs the question as to whether this pertained to when the kingdom on earth was established.

 

[Muna]

Wouldnt this also be forgiving and remitting sins shown us in Paul

2 Cr 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

1 Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works

In the last two he would seem to be retaining them, as if holding their feet to the fire there.

But I always say, Jesus Christ, the Father revealed his Son IN Paul as the Father (and not flesh and blood) revealed the same in Peter (Concerning the Christ) and the foundation is Jesus as the Chief cornstone but its also plural.

The Apostle of Peter's profession is not Peter but Jesus

Heb 3:8 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus

Upon which the church is built, but the foundation is still made up of the plurality of the apostles

Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

Jesus Christ in them

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

 

[Exegesis]

Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

@Doug . Please meditate and understand the above verse.

Peter was simply one of the rocks of the foundation, not 'THE ONE AND ONLY' rock.

Thus we have twelve foundations stones with one Chief Cornerstone. There is no need to elevate Peter like you did and make him the sole rock that New Jerusalem is built on, or worse, turn him into the Catholic Church.

 

[Muna]

I like the back and forth here between Peter (or Cephas) which is by interpretation, "A stone" who is coming to Jesus (or as unto a living stone) and how Peter includes all of them as coming to Jesus (as unto a living stone) being lively stones also in 1 Peter 2:4-5 (below)

John 1:40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

And he brought him to Jesus.

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

John 1:42 And when Jesus beheld him

he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

1 Peter 2:5 "Ye also", as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ

 

[Behold]

New International Version and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was CHRIST New Living Translation and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was CHRIST English Standard Version and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was CHRIST Berean Standard Bible and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Berean Literal Bible and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were drinking from the spiritual rock accompanying them, and the rock was Christ. King James Bible And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was CHRIST New King James Version and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. New American Standard Bible and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. NASB 1995 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was CHRIST NASB 1977 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Legacy Standard Bible and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was CHRIST. Amplified Bible and all [of them] drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was CHRIST. Christian Standard Bible and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. Holman Christian Standard Bible and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was CHRIST. American Standard Version and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. Contemporary English Version and drank the same spiritual drink, which flowed from the spiritual rock that followed them. That rock was CHRIST.

 

[keithr]

[Mat 16:18-19 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You should include the preceeding verses to include the context - Matthew 16:15-17 (WEB):

(15) He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”​

(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

(17) Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

Jesus then uses a play on words to say, "You are Peter {petros - a small rock or stone}, and on this rock {petra - a large rock, cliff or ledge} I will build my church/assembly/congregation". The large rock, or foundation, that Jesus will build his church on is the truth that Peter just spoke, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

 

[Doug]

Wouldnt this also be forgiving and remitting sins shown us in Paul

Good point

 

[soberxp]

Jesus Christ is the rock of gospel.
Peter is the rock of Church.

 

[Doug]

You should include the preceeding verses to include the context - Matthew 16:15-17 (WEB):

(15) He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”​

(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

(17) Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

Jesus then uses a play on words to say, "You are Peter {petros - a small rock or stone}, and on this rock {petra - a large rock, cliff or ledge} I will build my church/assembly/congregation". The large rock, or foundation, that Jesus will build his church on is the truth that Peter just spoke, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

Good point

 

[complete]

[Mat 16:18-19 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Psa 18:2 KJV] 2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

[Psa 62:6 KJV] 6 He only [is] my rock and my salvation: [he is] my defence; I shall not be moved.

[Psa 18:31 KJV] 31 For who [is] God save the LORD? or who [is] a rock save our God?

Jesus is the rock. Jesus would build his church.

[Gal 2:8 KJV] 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter.

Along with this apostleship, Peter was given authority to loose and bind.

[Jhn 20:23 KJV] 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Peter would have the authority to loose and bind sins. This begs the question as to whether this pertained to when the kingdom on earth was established.

'He saith unto them,"But whom say ye that I am?"
And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Then charged He His disciples that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ.'
(Mat 16:15-20)

Hello @Doug,

I have only read your OP, but would like to address it.

It is the God given truth, spoken by Peter, in response to the Lod's question, "Whom say ye that I am?" that the Lord Jesus Christ would build His Church upon: and not upon Peter Himself. Divine authority would be allotted to Peter as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the words that follow reveal, concerning 'the keys of the Kingdom' and, binding and loosing; but it is the truth that Peter uttered, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', by inspiration of God, that, 'the gates of Hell shall not prevail against'.

Peter's name, which the Lord refers to with the words, 'thou art Peter' (Petros) means a stone, loose and moveable, not suitable therefore as a foundation upon which to build anything. (John 1:42): by contrast, The words, 'upon this rock' which the Lord uses regarding the truth spoken, is Petra, which grammatically is feminine, so cannot refer to Peter, but refers as I have said, to the Divinely inspired words he spoke, in reply to the Lord's question. The rock upon which the Lord will build His church, is the Greek Petra. meaning A rock (in situ) immovable: referring to The Messiah, as being 'the Son of the living God', Who is the foretold "foundation-stone" (Isa_28:16); and the rejected stone (Psa_118:22).

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Bladerunner]

[Mat 16:18-19 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Psa 18:2 KJV] 2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

[Psa 62:6 KJV] 6 He only [is] my rock and my salvation: [he is] my defence; I shall not be moved.

[Psa 18:31 KJV] 31 For who [is] God save the LORD? or who [is] a rock save our God?

Jesus is the rock. Jesus would build his church.

[Gal 2:8 KJV] 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter.

Along with this apostleship, Peter was given authority to loose and bind.

[Jhn 20:23 KJV] 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Peter would have the authority to loose and bind sins. This begs the question as to whether this pertained to when the kingdom on earth was established.

you said:"Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter."

In a sense..the church is not for Israel. It is for those who believe, both Jew and Gentile...There are two plans not two churches.

 

[Doug]

you said:"Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter."

In a sense..the church is not for Israel. It is for those who believe, both Jew and Gentile...There are two plans not two churches.

Are you Blade from Patrick Jane forum?

 

[Doug]

you said:"Peter was given an apostleship to Israel, so in a sense the church was founded upon Peter."

In a sense..the church is not for Israel. It is for those who believe, both Jew and Gentile...There are two plans not two churches.

Well this all depends on your view.

The body of Christ was formed after Paul was converted. Before that, he persecuted the church, so there had to be a church before the body of Christ. The church before Paul was the believing remnant of Israel. Peter's apostleship was for the remnant church.

Could Peter still be considered a foundation for the body of Christ? It depends on how you view the verse below

[Eph 2:20 KJV] 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

It could be Peter is a foundation of the body of Christ. It could also be the apostles and prophets in the body of Christ. Either way Christ is THE FOUNDATION.

 

[Behold]

The body of Christ was formed after Paul was converted.

The Cross of Christ birthed the NT Church.

It was Paul who was later sent by Jesus to explain the "mystery" of the Body of Christ., and all the other church doctrine.

 

[Webers_Home]

the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jonah said the gates of hell are located deep underground at the bottoms of
the mountains. (Jonah 2:2 and Jonah 2:6)

Well then, if perchance any of Jesus' church somehow end up in that place,
they should be able to stroll on out of there like tourists in Paris.
_

 

[Behold]

Well then, if perchance any of Jesus' church somehow end up in that place,
they should be able to stroll on out of there like tourists in Paris.

No Christians found in Hell.

No Unbelevers, never born again found in Heaven.

 

[JohnDB]

Peter is not the Rock in question.
And neither is Jesus in all accuracy.

It's the principle that Peter demonstrated that is the ROCK that Jesus pointed to as the building foundation for Jesus's Church....and all the money and power of Heaven is available for those who understand the principle.

And the comprehension of this principle also gives the power of "binding and loosing" or declaring what is or is not sin. Including worship on Sundays, eating unclean meat, as not sin but things like homosexuality is a sin...which are exactly the things Peter did.

 

[Behold]

And neither is Jesus in all accuracy.

You are not accurate.

Notice....

Jesus is the Rock.

1 Cor 10:4....."and that rock was Christ".

Eph 2:20. Jesus is the "cornerstone"

Romans 9:32.......the (Jews)..."""""Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.""""

 

[CTK]

Jesus Christ is the rock of gospel.
Peter is the rock of Church.

Why is Peter the rock of the church?

 

[Doug]

The Cross of Christ birthed the NT Church.

It was Paul who was later sent by Jesus to explain the "mystery" of the Body of Christ., and all the other church doctrine.

The NT church was formed when Christ appeared to Israel. The believed he was their Messiah

The church the body of Christ was formed after Paul was converted.....he said he was first.......................[1Ti 1:16 KJV] 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.