Does Understanding Eschatology Prove You Are Saved?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes that even your belief in Christ has been granted you.

Christ is the author and finisher of your faith in every possible way.

Example that proof of salvation and perdition come from God
God grants people their belief, so then they believe and have salvation, while gospel opponents, being adversarial to Christian believers, have proof of perdition, as they are naturally of the ungodly.

It is not natural to have faith in Christ, it is supernatural!

Striving and Suffering for Christ​

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God.

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

That is talking about being granted the opportunity to believe in Christ and to suffer for His sake. He does not make anyone believe and does not make anyone suffer for His sake. People must choose to do so willingly.

Joshua was certainly not a Calvinist.

Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

God wants all of the wicked to repent before it's too late, but you think He would rather that some remain in their wickedness.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In Calvinism, God is pleased to allow the wicked to remain in their wickedness up until their deaths which results in them being tormented for eternity. But, that blatantly contradicts scripture and God's character. God does not not anyone to perish, but instead wants everyone to repent and to be saved (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Acts 17:30, etc.) which is why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2).

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope. You didn't address my points at all and just ignored them, as you typically do. You are butchering the text to make it fit your doctrine, as I already showed. The Greek word "malista" never means specifically. It is a word used to contrast one thing with another. You are trying to create a definition for the word that doesn't exist.

Blah blah blah... I already explained the greek word, "malista" before you.

"I do understand why some look at the two parts of this sentence as contrasting. It is because they believe the word translated specially always meaning mostly. Therefore, they contrast the "all" in that sentence with their understanding of "specially believers" in the sentence.​

​

The word translated specially is the Greek [malista], meaning chiefly. But by extension also means particularly or specifically by way of [mala meaning "very much" or to a higher degree. [malista] is the neuter plural of the superlative [mala]. Thus chiefly or particularly is singling out the "all men" as those who believe. Not contrasting them as being a part of believers who have God as a savior also."
​

I showed you who was being addressed in Acts 25:26 by looking at the surrounding verses, but you obviously don't care about context.

It does not really refute my position. God's salvation is upon all men, specifically, those who believe, not only the Jews but the Gentiles also from all over the world. PERIOD! Not Salvation upon ALL and EVERY men.

Doesn't matter. Your doctrine is clearly destroyed by what I wrote:

"Your "salvation for all men" and "free will" doctrine are FALSE! That’s your interpretation, not what Scripture teaches. If Christ truly died for ALL people in the saving sense, yet most reject Him, then His work would be returning to God VOID — which Scripture says is impossible:​

Isa 55:11​

(11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

​

No matter how hard you try, your position simply doesn’t hold up biblically."​

 

[TribulationSigns]

God wants all of the wicked to repent before it's too late, but you think He would rather that some remain in their wickedness.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In Calvinism, God is pleased to allow the wicked to remain in their wickedness up until their deaths which results in them being tormented for eternity. But, that blatantly contradicts scripture and God's character. God does not not anyone to perish, but instead wants everyone to repent and to be saved (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Acts 17:30, etc.) which is why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2).

The problem with many people and also Christians (and I see this in debates all the time) is that they often attempt to pit one Scripture against another. They then either declare both unreliable or they choose one over the other and declare themselves the winner in whatever position they desire to hold. But the Bible is not a salad bar where we can pick out what "our heart" desires, and leave the rest. One of the most basic rules of sound hermeneutics is that one Scripture cannot be true by making another Scripture untrue. For example, we can't read in one Scripture that we are justified by works, and another that we are not justified by works, then toss one out and claim victory using the other to allegedly prove we are justified by works. That's not how the Bible works, that's how men work the Bible.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

• "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
• That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

All scripture, Scripture in every part, jot and tittle, is given by inspiration of God so that it is impossible to contradict or oppose itself. It is all God breathed and so must be in agreement or harmony with itself, rather than pitted against itself. In other words, every passage (despite what the skeptics claim) is the truth, and thus must in some way agree. Do we imagine that because someone sees what they believe is a contradiction, there actually is one? People see a contradiction in any and everything you can imagine, but that's no proof there actually is one. There's a contradiction between what Matthew said and what John said, what Mark said and what Paul said. In what Jesus said in declaring that He came to bring peace, and then in another Scripture declaring "think not that I came to bring peace." These are all perceived contradictions when in fact they are no contradictions in any of this. God in His infinite wisdom did not author the Bible so that it could be readily understood without His Spirit of truth. That's just a fact of life. There are all sorts of stumbling blocks, seeming contradictions and supposed miscalculations. This because God has concealed truth within its pages, and is under no obligation to reveal it to anyone. Christ is the hidden Manna for God's own perfect purposes.

Proverbs 25:2

• "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

Why is it the glory of God to conceal a thing? Why is it the honor of Kings to search it out? The real question is not if God rejoices over the death of the wicked (God says He does) or if God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (God says He doesn't), the real question is how. And the answer is that both are true from different perspectives. Just as Christ bringing peace and Christ not bringing peace is both true from different perspectives. God is righteously pleased and rejoices in his perfect justice (the wages of sin is death), which his perfect holiness requires, while not having a sadistic pleasure in seeing men die. In other words, God has righteous pleasure in seeing His perfect justice and indeed will being done. The fact is, justice being done in the death of the wicked is by no means a cause for a Holy God to be sad or remorseful, seeing as it is His will that the wicked be condemned. You see "that" would be a contradiction if it wasn't actually His will that this be done. Consider what God tells the prophets to do when He brings His judgment of death upon the wicked of Spiritual Babylon?

Revelation 18:20

• "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

God says rejoice, be glad or joyous over this death He has brought upon the wicked because it is His righteous and just judgment that in truth, they have brought upon themselves.

So then obviously God does rejoice over the death of the wicked in the sense that it is His divine will, what He wants, His being pleased or satisfied (Isa 53:10-11) with His judgment and prophesied vengeance. On the other hand, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked as the word pertains to an unjustified, cruel, callous, sadistic or perverse pleasure in seeing people suffer. These are two entirely different things. There is no contradiction because Just as Christ came to bring peace, and yet came not to bring peace, there are different perspectives and uses of the same word. While God is pleased that the wicked have been punished and cease from their wickedness, God also has no pleasure in their suffering and pain--and there is no contradiction in this.

Selah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Blah blah blah... I already explained the greek word, "malista" before you.

"I do understand why some look at the two parts of this sentence as contrasting. It is because they believe the word translated specially always meaning mostly. Therefore, they contrast the "all" in that sentence with their understanding of "specially believers" in the sentence.​

​

The word translated specially is the Greek [malista], meaning chiefly. But by extension also means particularly or specifically by way of [mala meaning "very much" or to a higher degree. [malista] is the neuter plural of the superlative [mala]. Thus chiefly or particularly is singling out the "all men" as those who believe. Not contrasting them as being a part of believers who have God as a savior also."​

You mean you already made up your own definition for the word that doesn't exist. It NEVER means specifically.

It does not really refute my position.

I refuted your understanding of Acts 25:26 by showing the context. The "you" there refers to those who Paul was brought before and verse 23 shows that he was brought before King Agrippa, Bernice, as well as "the chief captains, and principal men of the city". But, it was pointed out that he was especially brought before King Agrippa. You are twisting the text of that verse to fit your doctrine instead of interpreting it in context.

God's salvation is upon all men, specifically, those who believe, not only the Jews but the Gentiles also from all over the world. PERIOD! Not Salvation upon ALL and EVERY men.

God offers salvation to literally all people (Titus 2:11). That is what it means for God to be the Savior of all people. There is no one else who can save people but God. And He wants all people to be saved, just as Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:3-6. But, you deny this truth.

Doesn't matter. Your doctrine is clearly destroyed by what I wrote:

LOL. You have destroyed NOTHING with what you have written except for your credibility.

"Your "salvation for all men" and "free will" doctrine are FALSE! That’s your interpretation, not what Scripture teaches. If Christ truly died for ALL people in the saving sense, yet most reject Him, then His work would be returning to God VOID — which Scripture says is impossible:​

​

Isa 55:11​

(11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

​

No matter how hard you try, your position simply doesn’t hold up biblically."​

Great job of misinterpreting yet another verse. In no way, shape or form does Isaiah 55:11 say anything about God not wanting all people to be saved. What that verse means is that when God wants something to be accomplished and He declares it, then it will be accomplished. Very simple. How does that have anything to do with whether or not God wants all people to be saved?

Tell me, do you think that God wants the non-elect wicked to remain in their wickedness up until their deaths? You do, right? You believe God only wants His elect that He chose for reasons only He knows to repent and He does not want everyone else to repent, but to instead remain in their wickedness. Yet, that blatantly contradicts these scriptures...

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

TribulationSigns: It pleases God to allow the death of the wicked because He does not want them to repent and to be saved.

God: I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

I will take God's word over your word every time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem with many people and also Christians (and I see this in debates all the time) is that they often attempt to pit one Scripture against another.

You mean like you're doing repeatedly? That is exactly what you are doing, so this is very ironic coming from you.

They then either declare both unreliable or they choose one over the other and declare themselves the winner in whatever position they desire to hold.

That is not what I'm doing at all. I'm showing scripture in its proper context while not ignoring or dismissing ANY of it. You, on the other hand, cherry pick scripture while ignoring or twisting the scriptures that don't fit your doctrine.

But the Bible is not a salad bar where we can pick out what "our heart" desires, and leave the rest.

This is just hilarious for you, of all people, to be saying this. You are doing the very thing that you're saying we shouldn't do. Very hypocritical of you.

One of the most basic rules of sound hermeneutics is that one Scripture cannot be true by making another Scripture untrue.

Of course. So, why does your doctrine blatantly contradict so many scriptures? You need to hold to a doctrine that does not contradict any scrpiture at all. But, that is not true of your doctrine.

For example, we can't read in one Scripture that we are justified by works, and another that we are not justified by works, then toss one out and claim victory using the other to allegedly prove we are justified by works.

LOL. Who is saying that we are justified by works? No one. So, what is the name of the strawman you're addressing here?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I will take God's word over your word every time.

The Lord Judges, and I am comfortable with it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You mean like you're doing repeatedly? That is exactly what you are doing, so this is very ironic coming from you.

Proof?

That is not what I'm doing at all. I'm showing scripture in its proper context while not ignoring or dismissing ANY of it. You, on the other hand, cherry pick scripture while ignoring or twisting the scriptures that don't fit your doctrine.

Proof?

This is just hilarious for you, of all people, to be saying this. You are doing the very thing that you're saying we shouldn't do. Very hypocritical of you.

Yeah right, show me the proof.

Of course. So, why does your doctrine blatantly contradict so many scriptures? You need to hold to a doctrine that does not contradict any scrpiture at all. But, that is not true of your doctrine.

Proof?

LOL. Who is saying that we are justified by works? No one. So, what is the name of the strawman you're addressing here?

You are not reading very well. I said, "for example" with people out there doing this. Like duh, you do not know who they are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Lord Judges, and I am comfortable with it.

It's a very good thing that you're comfortable with that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Proof?



Proof?




Yeah right, show me the proof.



Proof?

Hello? Did you not read what I said?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

TribulationSigns: It pleases God to allow the death of the wicked because He does not want them to repent and to be saved.

God: I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

Do you deny that you believe that it pleases God to allow the death of the wicked because He does not want them to repent and to be saved?

You are not reading very well. I said, "for example" with people out there doing this. Like duh, you do not know who they are.

Why use an example that doesn't apply to me? Like, duh, how about you use an example that you think is relevant to me since you're talking to me.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hello? Did you not read what I said?

I heard you. I have heard from you, like "people out there", accuse me of making God have joy in the damnation of innocent people.

What innocent people? Are you not listening to God's word, or are you simply choosing to ignore what God says? There are no innocents. There is not one, no not one who is innocent. And so your contention and assumptions are false, which means your conclusions will be false. God has no joy or pleasure in the damnation of the wicked (there are no innocents). You may should follow your rule to check with the context. LOL.

Ezekiel 18:23-24

• "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
• But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

So clearly God has no joy in the damnation of people, and yet just as clear is that those who trespass against him shall die in their sins. It's really not "logically" debatable unless you remove large portions of the Bible.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

TribulationSigns: It pleases God to allow the death of the wicked because He does not want them to repent and to be saved.

God: I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

Do you deny that you believe that it pleases God to allow the death of the wicked because He does not want them to repent and to be saved?

God certainly loves us (His Election), but as far as the unsaved, or those in unbelief not grieving him (and particularly the unsaved people of His congregation), that idea is bankrupt. It's destitute of factual or Biblical validation. Again, it gets back to the authority of God's word versus whatever we want (or choose) to believe, regardless of what God says. For example:

Hebews 3:17-19

• "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
• And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
• So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

These were God's people and they weren't saved, and we read that they grieved the Lord wherein they died in the wilderness in unbelief. So clearly, God's word contradicts this position that the unsaved don't grieve the Lord. And yet He takes no joy in their death, even as Christ was sorrowful over His people Jerusalem (Luke 8:52).

Ezekiel 18:23

• "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

Which is why God warns His people (His church) to grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby they are sealed unto the day of redemption. He's speaking to us collectively. That is to say, if we are truly sealed/secured of the Holy Spirit, we will not grieve the Lord as those unredeemed or those in unbelief do. i.e., if we do grieve him (like the children of God in the wilderness), that is evidence we remain unredeemed, not evidence that we were once redeemed, and then somehow lost that redemption, as if that were possible.

Revelation 14:4

• "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The concept of God's firstfruits derives from the creation work, namely in Christ that which is first and best (firstfruits) belongs to Him. The reason God says these firstfruits were never defiled and were they truly virgins was because they were ibn God's hand and God preserved them as such by the "sealing of His Holy Spirit" unto this day of redemption. They couldn't lose redemption because it means they were ransomed in full. Not in part, but the full price was paid so that they cannot have debt or sin wherein they could possibly be lost..ever. If your debt for sin is paid in full, there is no sin that could cause it to be "not paid," else the debt for sin wasn't paid in full in the first place. So the idea that God loves and offer salvation to all men is false.

Why use an example that doesn't apply to me? Like, duh, how about you use an example that you think is relevant to me since you're talking to me.

Grow up. You know perfectly well why I said, "for example."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I heard you. I have heard from you, like "people out there", accuse me of making God have joy in the damnation of innocent people.

I did not say that. Why are you making up lies? I'm saying he would rather the wicked repent than to die in their wickedness. Do you agree with that or not?

What innocent people?

Who said the wicked are innocent? Do you know that you can't get the time back that you waste making strawman arguments?

Are you not listening to God's word, or are you simply choosing to ignore what God says?

Are you reading what I'm saying, or what your imaginary strawman is saying? You're not addressing my argument at all.

There are no innocents.

Who said there are? Where are you coming up with this from? I'm saying that God would rather that those who are not innocent repent than to die in their guilty wickedness. Agree or not?

There is not one, no not one who is innocent.

I didn't say otherwise. You are really embarrassing yourself here with your wasted strawman argument.

And so your contention and assumptions are false, which means your conclusions will be false. God has no joy or pleasure in the damnation of the wicked (there are no innocents).

I never said the wicked are innocent. You seem to have extreme reading comprehension issues. Why does God not have pleasure in the damnation of the wicked in your view? Don't you think it pleases Him to allow the wicked to go into eternal damnation since you believe He did not want to save them?

You may should follow your rule to check with the context. LOL.

Ezekiel 18:23-24

• "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
• But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

So clearly God has no joy in the damnation of people, and yet just as clear is that those who trespass against him shall die in their sins. It's really not "logically" debatable unless you remove large portions of the Bible.

Why does God have no joy in the damnation of people in your view? In my view, it's because He wanted them to repent and be saved instead.

Try actually addressing what I'm saying this time instead of wasting all your time making strawman arguments.

 

[rwb]

The problem with many people and also Christians (and I see this in debates all the time) is that they often attempt to pit one Scripture against another. They then either declare both unreliable or they choose one over the other and declare themselves the winner in whatever position they desire to hold. But the Bible is not a salad bar where we can pick out what "our heart" desires, and leave the rest. One of the most basic rules of sound hermeneutics is that one Scripture cannot be true by making another Scripture untrue. For example, we can't read in one Scripture that we are justified by works, and another that we are not justified by works, then toss one out and claim victory using the other to allegedly prove we are justified by works. That's not how the Bible works, that's how men work the Bible.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

• "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
• That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

All scripture, Scripture in every part, jot and tittle, is given by inspiration of God so that it is impossible to contradict or oppose itself. It is all God breathed and so must be in agreement or harmony with itself, rather than pitted against itself. In other words, every passage (despite what the skeptics claim) is the truth, and thus must in some way agree. Do we imagine that because someone sees what they believe is a contradiction, there actually is one? People see a contradiction in any and everything you can imagine, but that's no proof there actually is one. There's a contradiction between what Matthew said and what John said, what Mark said and what Paul said. In what Jesus said in declaring that He came to bring peace, and then in another Scripture declaring "think not that I came to bring peace." These are all perceived contradictions when in fact they are no contradictions in any of this. God in His infinite wisdom did not author the Bible so that it could be readily understood without His Spirit of truth. That's just a fact of life. There are all sorts of stumbling blocks, seeming contradictions and supposed miscalculations. This because God has concealed truth within its pages, and is under no obligation to reveal it to anyone. Christ is the hidden Manna for God's own perfect purposes.

Proverbs 25:2

• "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

Why is it the glory of God to conceal a thing? Why is it the honor of Kings to search it out? The real question is not if God rejoices over the death of the wicked (God says He does) or if God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (God says He doesn't), the real question is how. And the answer is that both are true from different perspectives. Just as Christ bringing peace and Christ not bringing peace is both true from different perspectives. God is righteously pleased and rejoices in his perfect justice (the wages of sin is death), which his perfect holiness requires, while not having a sadistic pleasure in seeing men die. In other words, God has righteous pleasure in seeing His perfect justice and indeed will being done. The fact is, justice being done in the death of the wicked is by no means a cause for a Holy God to be sad or remorseful, seeing as it is His will that the wicked be condemned. You see "that" would be a contradiction if it wasn't actually His will that this be done. Consider what God tells the prophets to do when He brings His judgment of death upon the wicked of Spiritual Babylon?

Revelation 18:20

• "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

God says rejoice, be glad or joyous over this death He has brought upon the wicked because it is His righteous and just judgment that in truth, they have brought upon themselves.

So then obviously God does rejoice over the death of the wicked in the sense that it is His divine will, what He wants, His being pleased or satisfied (Isa 53:10-11) with His judgment and prophesied vengeance. On the other hand, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked as the word pertains to an unjustified, cruel, callous, sadistic or perverse pleasure in seeing people suffer. These are two entirely different things. There is no contradiction because Just as Christ came to bring peace, and yet came not to bring peace, there are different perspectives and uses of the same word. While God is pleased that the wicked have been punished and cease from their wickedness, God also has no pleasure in their suffering and pain--and there is no contradiction in this.

Selah!

What I often find with Christians who deny the doctrine of 'limited atonement' is their lack of understanding the tiny little word "all".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What I often find with Christians who deny the doctrine of 'limited atonement' is their lack of understanding the tiny little word "all".

I would say the same about Calvinists like you and TribulationSigns. Do you believe that God wants literally all people to be saved, as 1 Timothy 2:3-6 says? Do you believe that God offers salvation to literally all people, as Titus 2:11 indicates? Do you believe that God commands literally all people everywhere to repent, as stated in Acts 17:30?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why does God have no joy in the damnation of people in your view? In my view, it's because He wanted them to repent and be saved instead.

You don't get it. You got the wrong people. He wanted HIS PEOPLE to repent and be saved. It does not say He wanted ALL MEN to repent. No, it is ALL MEN he has chosen before the foundation of the world to repent!

Rev 7:1-4
(1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The seal of the living God is salvation. The number 144,000 signifies the great multitude of Saints from the Old and New Testament. They are "ALL" of HIS PEOPLE whom the Lord seals in their foreheads. Not everyone on Earth.

2Pe 3:9
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not longsuffering that "ALL" men come to repentance. Rather he is longsuffering that "ALL" men out of every nations He has chosen before the foundation of the World to come to repentance. Then the end will come. They are His world!

John 3:16-17
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You do know that no scripture stands alone, and that it must be understood in the light of other scriptures? Or to put it another way, scripture interprets scripture. The question is, what world did Christ come to save? Was it all people in the world "without exception," or was it all people in the world "without distinction." All His people in every nation, or all people of all nations? Why not let scripture interpret scripture, by letting Christ answer that Himself.

John 17:9-10

• "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
• And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

Now we have what Christ said in John chapter 3 qualified or elaborated on here in John chapter 17. All the world that Christ came to save are all the world that has been given Him. Hello?! Not all people in the world without exception. Those He will not pray for, but only the elect.

Or we can simply use logic, rational thinking and intelligence. namely, if God says that many will be cast into the lake of fire, condemned, punished,etc., then obviously all in the world are not going to be saved. There is no such thing as your flawed doctrines of universal salvation or of universal atonement!

 

[rwb]

I would say the same about Calvinists like you and TribulationSigns. Do you believe that God wants literally all people to be saved, as 1 Timothy 2:3-6 says? Do you believe that God offers salvation to literally all people, as Titus 2:11 indicates? Do you believe that God commands literally all people everywhere to repent, as stated in Acts 17:30?

When reading "all" in these verses, do you believe it means without exception, or without distinction?

 

[rwb]

Because you are trying to apply the tiny little word, "all" to every man on Earth when God did not say. Read my latest post against Spiritual Israelities.

I don't deny the doctrine of limited atonement! That's why when I read the word "all" when linked to eternal life, I understand it to mean without distinction, never without exception.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't deny the doctrine of limited atonement! That's why when I read the word "all" when linked to eternal life, I understand it to mean without distinction, never without exception.

Sorry. I removed my post after you typed your response. I thought it was from someone else. :-)

 

[rwb]

Sorry. I removed my post after you typed your response. I thought it was from someone else. :-)

LOL! Very easy to do!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't get it. You got the wrong people. He wanted HIS PEOPLE to repent and be saved.

You don't get it. His people are not the wicked. Hello? His people are called the righteous. His people don't need to repent because they are His people. No unrepentant people are His people. Your doctrine comes from your imagination. The wicked are those who are not His people and need to repent so that they can become part of His people.

It does not say He wanted ALL MEN to repent.

He does want all people to repent! You are denying explicit scripture!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

No, it is ALL MEN he has chosen before the foundation of the world to repent!

That's not what it says! You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not longsuffering that "ALL" men come to repentance. Rather he is longsuffering that "ALL" men out of every nations He has chosen before the foundation of the World to come to repentance. Then the end will come. They are His world!

LOL. More twisting. God commands all people everywhere, without exception, to repent (Acts 17:30) and wouldn't do so unless He wanted all people everywhere to repent.

Why is God's longsuffering and patience required for repentance if whether someone repents or not is entirely up to Him? What do you think, that God is longsuffering and patient with Himself while He waits for Himself to give someone repentance?

John 3:16-17
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You do know that no scripture stands alone, and that it must be understood in the light of other scriptures?

Hello?! I say that all the time, so, yes, I do know that. Better than you do, obviously.

Or to put it another way, scripture interprets scripture.

Yes, but you turn scripture against itself by making it contradict itself. Bad move on your part.

The question is, what world did Christ come to save? Was it all people in the world "without exception," or was it all people in the world "without distinction." All His people in every nation, or all people of all nations? Why not let scripture interpret scripture, by letting Christ answer that Himself.

John 17:9-10

• "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
• And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

Now we have what Christ said in John chapter 3 qualified or elaborated on here in John chapter 17. All the world that Christ came to save are all the world that has been given Him. Hello?! Not all people in the world without exception. Those He will not pray for, but only the elect.

Or we can simply use logic, rational thinking and intelligence. namely, if God says that many will be cast into the lake of fire, condemned, punished,etc., then obviously all in the world are not going to be saved. There is no such thing as your flawed doctrines of universal salvation or of universal atonement!

You are very lacking in spritual discernment which is why you take much scripture out of context. Let's take a CLOSER look at John 3:16 to see who are included in "the world" that God so loves.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

The context of "the world" can be seen by reading this entire passage. It includes those who "loved darkness instead of light". The light came into the world to shine light into the darkness, which includes those who love darkness, but those people chose darkness over the light that came into the world that included them. So, "the world" does not refer only to those who are saved, but also to those who are in spiritual darkness. So, the world refers to all people. The reason that all people are not saved is not because God didn't want all people to be saved, but

 

[TribulationSigns]

You don't get it. His people are not the wicked. Hello?

No, you still don’t get it. His people weren’t born holy on a velvet cloud. They were once wicked — living smack in the middle of the kingdom of darkness — before being rescued and brought into the kingdom of Christ. Hello? This isn’t rocket science. LOL!

His people don't need to repent because they are His people.

Ouch! Newsflash — God actually requires His people to come to repentance. Otherwise, guess what? They were never born again in the first place. Shocking, I know.

Your doctrine comes from your imagination.

Nope, yours.

The wicked are those who are not His people and need to repent so that they can become part of His people.

Like we all were wicked too!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

NIV?? Oh please — what a terrible translation. Strong’s G2248 doesn’t say “anyone,” it says “us” or “us-ward.” Big difference. And God didn’t say “everyone” either — it’s “all.” So, like RWB asked you, when you read “all” in these verses, do you honestly think it means without exception… or without distinction?

LOL. More twisting. God commands all people everywhere, without exception, to repent (Acts 17:30) and wouldn't do so unless He wanted all people everywhere to repent.

Why is God's longsuffering and patience required for repentance if whether someone repents or not is entirely up to Him? What do you think, that God is longsuffering and patient with Himself while He waits for Himself to give someone repentance?

You’re missing it completely. God’s longsuffering isn’t about twiddling His thumbs waiting for every last random human on the planet to repent. He’s patient while He waits for ALL of His people to come to repentance. Remember — they were wicked to begin with. Once the very last of the Elect has repented and entered His Kingdom, the end will come. He’s not sitting around hoping the last stubborn unchosen sinner of mankind will have a change of heart. Silly you.

You are very lacking in spritual discernment which is why you take much scripture out of context. Let's take a CLOSER look at John 3:16 to see who are included in "the world" that God so loves.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

The context of "the world" can be seen by reading this entire passage. It includes those who "loved darkness instead of light". The light came into the world to shine light into the darkness, which includes those who love darkness, but those people chose darkness over the light that came into the world that included them. So, "the world" does not refer only to those who are saved, but also to those who are in spiritual darkness. So, the world refers to all people. The reason that all people are not saved is not because God didn't want all people to be saved,

Foolish. The Light came into His people — the world — through Christ, but the rest? They clung to their beloved darkness like it was a security blanket. It’s not complicated, it’s not deep mystery — it’s as simple as that!