jaybird
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it makes no sense that Jews have never had a trinity and Jesus was a practicing Jew.
the doctrine has so many problems
the doctrine has so many problems
Jesus is God
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jaybird
"Trinity people" who are Christian people...
KNOW what begotten means.
YOU have just stated it:
SAME KIND, SAME SUBSTANCE.
Jesus was of the same substance as God.
He was of the same kind.
This does not mean TRINITY...
The Trinity took some time to be formulated,,,
taking into account all that was written both in the OT and the NT.
The early church had to come to understand who this Jesus was....
Was He only a man?
They knew He had to be more than a man...so how to describe Him.
From the writings of the Apostles,,,since the bible was not formulated yet....
they came to understand that Jesus was God incarnate.
John stated in John 1:14 that the Word became flesh.
WHO/WHAT is the Word?
John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,,,,
Gary Mac
Member
If the person was calling Jesus GOOD
and only God is good....
Then Jesus must be God.
I hope you do know that Jesus was ALSO a man while on earth...
He was limited in His knowledge.
This is known as a self-imposed limitation.
For instance...Jesus was not omnipresent or omniscient.
He did not know everything...
but knew everything about God....since He was WITH God from the beginning.
Yes sir.
Jesus came to give us knowledge of the Father and what the Father wants us to know.
We do NOT know everything about God, but only what Jesus taught.
He says ONLY what Father wants Him to say because they are of the same mind.
Yes sir.
At that moment, the Father was greater than Jesus.
Once the Christian accepts the Trinity..all these questions disappear.
jaybird
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G-D, Jesus, angel Michael, all of the heavens, all same substance.
yes it took time starting with Theophilus of Antioch around 184 and his trinity of Father, Word and Wisdom going all the way to constantinople 3 in 683 and the one or two wills of Christ. some want to add nicea 2 in 787 but IMO its a bit unfair as its mostly about icons and how they relate to trinity, but no changes to the trinity.
John does not define wahat "word" is. it could mean lots of things to lots of people. definitely not enough there to make a doctrine.
rebuilder 454
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rebuilder 454
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jaybird
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the Most High is not "limited" on anything
this has nothing to do with:
Jesus is saying He (Jesus) does not speak on His own authority but the authority of G-D, and G-D does not need authority from anyone.
that would make the teaching itself invalid after "that moment" or whenever you think Jesus changes back to G-D. when Jesus changes back, that bible passage becomes a false teaching.
This is what Christians believe these post come up over and over again - who's questioning it Christians? Usually its a JW that starts a thread like this and it goes nowhere a pointless argument that can never be won nor will anyone be converted.Isn't there a JW forum for this stuff its not compatible with mainstream Christianity.
jaybird
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ihave no idea what your talking about, i never said anything about seperate
Gary Mac
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But trinity people are trinity people. GHods people are exactly as Himself and in His same spiritual image that God. He is a Spirit and man is His kingdom in which He lives.
Yes Born of God. Born again of Him that is not child of man but child of God.
God is not a substance at all, God is a Spirit, cant see it, cant touch it. Jesus was very clear in this in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation as you obviously has made your god elements instead of Spirit, it is with your, or is supposed to be, but in order for that to be you would have to follow Jesus words in that.
it didn't take that long for man to makeup that doctrine and their own laws to regulate their gods of it.
Yes God who is a Spirit has always come to man and made His abode in us. Adam was the very first to learn that lesson and became like God to know that difference from a carnal god from the One who is a Spirit.
And very few did. Very few followed Jesus to his God who sent him to show them his Gods ways to in themselves, and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect as he commanded of you in Matt 5:48.
Not a single one of Jesus followers disciples, came to be recognized with Jesus during his trials and tribulation, not one came to his defense, why? They rejected to be identified him just as out today do the same. They cant identify themselves with Jesus to be as he was in the father, so they actually make him a god of flesh instead, a golden calf, which is a false accusation.
Want to know who Jesus actually said he was in God. Here read who he said he was in his God who sent him. Not very many believe Jesus at all do they, they have made him a god instead to the One Jesus spoke of in himself.
Read it and tell us plainly who this was Jesus spoke of without editing in your own beliefs for a god.
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
Nothing more or anything less, just as you are only man, made of a woman born under mans laws just as Jesus was. The only difference that separates Jesus from most is, most refuse to receive in them the same God Jesus received in himself. But a few has found his ways in the father.
The way to describe Jesus is I have the very same mind be in me from God Himself who came to Jesus in Matt 3:16 and opens in us who He is and all of His heaven in us. Jesus was my brother, we have the same Father who is a Spirit. or mind that Spirit denotes.
Everyone who God has come from the outward to the inward man is begotten of God, Born again of God and that event happened in Jesus when he was about 30 years old when God Himself to reside within that man proven in Matt 3:16. He does the very same in us all who will receive that same God as Jesus did in us.
Yes Gods word becomes our flesh, in every man who God is come to are His living word, it is who we are, it is what comes out from us just as it came out from Jesus ONLY after Matt 3:16 and not before, Before that he was teacher, rabbi of the jewish denominational laws for a belief about a god, but after Matt 3:16 the very ones he taught as rabbi are the very ones who had him crucified for breaking their religious laws for a god as a blasphemer. Thay also falsely accused him of being God just as most today do the very same. Why? by not knowing the very God that Jesus learned of in Matt 3:16 from God Himself who renewed his mind to think in God terms instead of the laws for a religion.
Gods Spirit in man, It isnt written on stone nor in ink, but in the minds of man who has obeyed God and let Him come to reside in you just as He did in Jesus, Adam, Abraham, Moses Mary, Jesus, 120, and others right up until this day. Sadly, most rather dictate to their gods who he, is what he is, what he can and cannot do that they may control their gods to be in their own image.
Yes His word dwells among us all who has received from God Himself His words for who we should be like Him and walk in it as He walks in it, perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect, holy pure and without sin, cannot sin because we are born of God, born again of His same mind just as Jesus was in Matt 3:16 and as with Jesus it is impossible for we who are born of God to be in sin cannot sin because we are born of God. 1 John 3:9. And 1 John 3:2 when you see Him as He really is as Jesus did, ye shall become like Him as Jesus did instead of the religious doctrine of that denomination that he was teacher of prior.
I checked and you don't seem to identify yourself as Christian.
So I respect you for that.
Many want to define themselves as Christian but then don't believe in what Christians are SUPPOSED to believe in.
But let's forget that.
Let's concentrate on the Word since you said it could mean different things to different people.
John wrote about it...
so let's see what JOHN thought Word means.
As you surely know John spoke about the Word here:
John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John seems to me to be saying that the Word was God.
Then, it seems to me, that John is saying that the Word became flesh.
John 1:14
14And the Word became flesh,
Does it seem to you that John is saying that the Word was God and then the Word became flesh?
jaybird
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i dont understand this? how does accusing someone of JW prove the trinity?
also there are lots of Christians that dont believe the trinity, people were forced against their will to believe the trinity or their entire family might get burned alive.
Jesus and the 12 never burned people alive, just saying.
I couldn't agree more!
What about the title CHRISTIAN under avatars of persons that don't believe the Trinity!
It's in the creeds which define a Christian.
I agree that these debates should not be allowed...
but in a way it might be good as a testimony...
after all we're not here to convince anyone...
but to post for those that are looking for the truth that read but do not post.
jaybird
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where in the bible does it say Christians are SUPPOSED to believe the trinity?
your gonna need more than "seems' to make a solid foundation for a doctrine, Jesus says three or more witnesses
i think if John wanted people to believe Jesus was the Most High he would have said "Jesus is the Most High"
but the fact is John didnt say that because IMO its more complex than "Jesus is G-D" it sounds more like Greek thought and demiurge philosophy to me.
Taken
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Jesus IS Gods Word.
If you know of a Time Gods own Word “did Not Exist”… that would be the same time JESUS did not exist.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
It also says he was "slain from the foundation of the world"
That alone makes logic and the bible at odds.
Gary Mac
Member
Good is only the enemy of the best.
If Jesus was God as you say, can you tell us who this was that Jesus spoke of that he could do nothing at all without? Looks to me Jesus could do noting at all without his God that he prayed to and obeyed.
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
Every man that ever lived, son of man, made of a woman lived on this earth. Are you suggesting that you are not made of a woman as Jesus was as son of man?
Yes Jesus didnt even know who God is or his heaven until God came to that man and open in him who He is and all of His heaven in that man. Proven in Matt 3:16.
Jesus wasnt with God from the beginning, he was about 30 years old when he met God in Matt 3;16.
No Jesus came as a messenger of God to teach you what it is to be in the Fatrher yourself just as he was in the Father, and even prayed to hi God for you to be in John 17, He in you and you in Him as one just as Jesus was one in Him.
You do if God is your own spirit of mind and you would walk in it as He walks in it and nothing is hidden that was hidden. He opens all of His heaven in all who will let Him.
SO are we all who has the mind of Christ, anointed of God. Christ in us. Christ = gods anointing, disposition, Spirit, mind in man. Jesus was also anointed of God.
The term Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one". The word is derived from the Greek verb χρίω (chrī́ō), meaning "to anoint." In the Greek Septuagint, χριστός was a semantic loan used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed".
Paul came up with that term Christ at Antioch, before that in the old we who are anointed of Gods same Spirit of mind were referred to as Christos, saints.
The term saint is derived from the Latin word sanctus, meaning "holy" or "consecrated." This is, in turn, a direct translation of the Greek word "άγιος" (hagios), which also means "holy." In its original scriptural usage it simply means "holy" or "sanctified."
But we who God is come to are equal with Him. God is Love and man is the temple of Him. Love doesnt change from one person to the other, Love is the same in all who is actually of it that God is.
There is only one thing on this planet that is perfect and never changes, it is the same yesterday as it is today and will be the same tomorrow, and that is Love that God is and man is the place He resides, Jesus was very clear in that in Luke 17:20-21. Everything else changes, everything. And that is exactly why Jesus commanded of you to be perfect even as your fathe in Heaven is perfect.
Who is God? = For God is Love.
One you accept the trinity instead of God b in you, then you have rejected the Christ totally to be Gods anointed on your self, He in you and you in Him as one.
Again read John 17 Jesus prayer to his God that you be as well. You have complexity separated yourself from being that person of Christ that is anointed of God in favor of mans doctrines in ignorance of who God really is in man.
Agreed.
Thus becoming incarnate so He could teach men HIMSELF and not rely on prophets.
Isaiah 54.13
13All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children.
Isaiah 48:17
17Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.
Ezekiel 34:15-16
15“I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord GOD.
16“I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered,
Jesus took care of the flock.
He sought what was lost.
John 10:7-11
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep,
God is the owner of the sheep.
Jesus is the owner of the sheep.
THIS has nothing to do with it?
I stated that Jesus came to give us knowledge of the Father.
Did Jesus not do this?
Did Jesus not fulfill the verses I just posted above?
Here they are again:
Isaiah 54.13
13All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children.
Isaiah 48:17
17Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.
Ezekiel 34:15-16
15“I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord GOD.
16“I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered,
There are many more.
Where does it state this?
Please post the verses.
Jesus does NOT CHANGE back to God.
He always was God and will always be God.
These strange statements are made by those that refuse to understand the Trinity.
Although, in your case, you don't really have to since you don't define yourself as Christian.
And if you don't believe the bible to begin with...
why are you interested in whether or not Jesus is God?
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